I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

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It’s not a prayer for the restoration of salvation, but the “joy” of His salvation.

Nathan confronted David with his sin(s) and David finally acknowledged them. Nathan did not respond that he absolved his sin but that the Lord Himself had taken it away, rather than he die according to the Law.

But the point made (which you avoided) was that David could not lose the grace that he was never under. He was under LAW.
You make it sound like there is no grace involved in the Law. The Law was given as a custodian BECAUSE of grace.
But to the believer, this side of the cross, it is said:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."David (or anyone prior to the cross of Christ) knew nothing of this GRACE in which the believer now stands through the power of the cross.
God’s salvation has never changed. Those who were saved under the Law were saved by grace, through faith, just as we are. The fact that God manifested His grace throught the Law does not change the fact that salvation is by grace, through faith.
 
It just occured to me that I have never regreted my conversion. When I was saved, no one told me that I have to leave the Catholic religion, I simply believed that Jesus Christ paid for my sins with his blood and I called upon him to save me: just like the Philipian jailer in Acts 16:31. He asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” He did, and he was. To the saved believer, the thought of someone trying to administer God’s grace through some ritual is the highest form of idolatry there is. Jesus said, “it is finished”, not ‘it’s begun’.

I just hope that people will see that God’s grace is through faith in Christ and not in some man made rituals. May the Lord truly bless every one who is seeking to know him in truth.
I was also young and foolish at the age of 19. :whacky:
 
It just occured to me that I have never regreted my conversion. When I was saved, no one told me that I have to leave the Catholic religion, I simply believed that Jesus Christ paid for my sins with his blood and I called upon him to save me: just like the Philipian jailer in Acts 16:31. He asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” He did, and he was. To the saved believer, the thought of someone trying to administer God’s grace through some ritual is the highest form of idolatry there is. Jesus said, “it is finished”, not ‘it’s begun’.

I just hope that people will see that God’s grace is through faith in Christ and not in some man made rituals. May the Lord truly bless every one who is seeking to know him in truth.
I would recommend that
Your understanding of Jesus’ words “it is finished” in terms of Jewish Passover liturgy, is inadequate until you see it in its proper context. Once you understand this, you will see that there is a deeper meaning to the theology of salvation that you ascribe to.

Furthermore the “rituals” that you refer to are parts of sacraments or Covenants instituted by the Christ for His faithful.
 
As I said earlier, the least that can be said of the true believer at the present time is that he has been foreknown, predestined, called, and is justified; what can be said of him in the future is that he will be glorified.
If he is not disqualified. 👍
Your church teaches that there are those God justifies, but does not give them the grace of perseverance; that position is arrived at by inference taken from strong warning and exhortation.
That is certainly one place where the Apostolic Teaching is reinforced. However, we understand the nature of salvation from the Teachings of Jesus, and He is quite clear that one can take hold of the plough, then turn back. He was also clear that some of the seed of the kingdom sprouts, then is choked out.
The clear statement concerning those God justifies is that He also glorifies them. Perseverance is included in justification.
So long as one is not disqualified. 😉

You have taken a passage that is about those who have already been glorified, and tried to apply it in the present. Paul is speaking of the saints who have completed the race, not those of us who are still on the road.

For those of us still on the road, he made it plain that it is possible to be “cut off from grace”.
You offer no proof that I can recall, that assurance of salvation is not true; you just say that it’s isn’t.
I am sure that it is possible. Mary certainly seemed to have it.
Some of them (and Paul is not speaking certainly), but some of them may have believed in vain from the point of their belief, as I said.
What makes it vain is failing to persevere, not the failure to believe in the first place. A person cannot “hold fast” to something they were never attached to in the first place.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone can hear the Gospel, receive it, but not believe it? Receiving is not true believing, but enduring.
Oh, I can accept that. Jesus was clear that some of the seed was snatched away before it could take root in the heart.
The overarching definition of real belief given by Christ is that it hears the word, holds it fast, and endures. A cast away belief, has heard the word, but not held it fast, and not endured, and is therefore, not a real belief.
You must make this artificial distinction so that you can support the Reformed theology you have embraced. On the contrary, the NT does not distinguish between “real” belief or “true believers”. These are artificial inventions created to make sense of non-Catholic understanding of scripture.
 
33,000!!! :eek:

I didn’t know there were that many.

If you would please, send me the names and telephone numbers of all 33,000, and I’ll call them and see which ones adhere to SS.
No need; they are already on Canada 411. Just punch in “businesses: head offices: churches” 🙂
 
The point is how does Grace alone affect or if transmitted to an infant, mentally ill, deaf mute individual. Grace alone, are two words that have no action, it’s like saying God saves, yeah but how? Can you describe how these lost souls are given or shown Grace from your Christian tradition?
As I understand it, under his belief system, you literally don’t have to do anything - not only no Baptism, but no sinner’s prayer, no altar call, no Sunday School - nothing. Either you are saved, or you are not saved - God makes the choice, and the individual has no say in the matter.

(Just jumping us over this hurdle. 😉 )
 
Those who adhere to sola scriptura; they all go back through the reformation to the apostles.
Sorry; the Reformation is a split. There is no continuation of authority between the Catholic Church that the Reformers left, and the ones they founded, because, having been excommunicated from the Catholic Church, they were (technically) non-Christians at the time that they founded their new church organizations. Any authority they may have had while they were Catholic was also stripped from them when they were excommunicated. Not only were they not Bishops appointed to establish new churches, they weren’t even lay people, any more, and didn’t even have the authority to bless a sneeze.

There was no transmission of authority from the Catholic Church (and therefore, no transmission from the Apostles) to their various Protestant churches. That is to say, no one with authority to do so ever laid hands on Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, or Knox, to say, “I appoint thee a Bishop; go out, preach, and establish thy church,” or even took them into an office for a meeting and said, “Yeah, go ahead with that new church thingy you’re doing. Anybody says anything, tell them to contact me.”

Furthermore, they were perfectly well aware that they had sundered the Apostolic tradition; if you go to St. Andrew’s Cathedral in Scotland, you will see the graffitti they wrote, and see the broken statues of the Apostles, with their heads knocked off.

They knew perfectly well that they were cutting themselves off from the Apostles; it seems as though they wanted to cut themselves off.
 
I was also young and foolish at the age of 19. :whacky:
Spiritual understanding has nothing to do with age or natural intelligence.

Luke 10:21

Jesus Rejoices in the Father’s Will

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
 
According to her.
Is there some other possible meaning to “I will build My Church”?
Cite the verse in which Christ states that He will send the Holy Spirit "to the Church to lead her into all truth."
This promise was made only to the Church.
Begs the question: what adulterated version of Christ am I preaching?
That is probably beyond the scope of this thread.
I have dealt with passages presented by others, and not just with passages that suit my point of view.
Is it not true that you interpret all the passages to suit your point of view? ARe there really any that cannot, somehow, be made to suit your point of view?
 
Christianity is a religion based on works. It is a works righteousness Faith. God requires perfect obedience to His Will, or sinlessness to be in His Holy presence and to have a Heavenly Father relationship with Him. God provides what is required in His Son alone, because only Jesus Christ can provide the perfect righteousness needed for all eternity. This is the gospel of God’s grace in a nutshell:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
You sound Catholic. Why do you call yourself Reformed?
 
De Maria, the verses you cite employ figures of speech; they are a way of conveying a concept.
Because you say so? I provide Scripture and you provide opinion? Who should I believe?
Nevertheless, grace in the theological context has a very narrow meaning—it’s the unmerited, undeserved favor of God toward the ungodly—it’s not a substance.
In the theological context? Whose theology? I follow the Theology of the Catholic Church, the Church built by Jesus Christ. Whose theology do you follow and why does it have authority over the clear teaching of Scripture which I’ve presented. And over the Church which has stood for 2000 years?

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Paul clearly taught that true saving faith works. But the works we do in Christ is not the basis of our justification before God. It is only evidence that we have been justified and born from above at conversion. A Christian already has the perfect righteousness of Christ . Therefore, how can we possibily add to that perfection found in Christ alone as a basis of our justification before God?
We can’t. But God requires that we work. For His own reasons, He has given us salvation and for His own reasons, He gives it only to those who patiently seek it in well doing.

Romans 2:6-7*
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:* *To them who **by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory *and honour and immortality, eternal life:

What are you going to do, refuse?

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Do you agree that the Christian life and pilgrimage is one of repentance and faith?
That is Catholic Teaching.
We are struggle with disobedience and sin as Christians.
Again, Catholic Teaching.
My question is how much obedience is required by an indivudual to maintain his adopted child status before our Holy and righteous God?
Perseverence to the end:
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Does God grade us on a curve?
He grades on the Cross, so to speak:
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
It almost seems that Catholics believe our adoption into the family of God is conditional and based on our personal obdience to our Heavenly Father?
That is from Scripture:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;** if so be that we suffer with him**, that we may be also glorified together.
Does your eathly father threaten to cut you off from your earthly family when you disobey him?
Well, yeah, that has happened.

So does our heavenly Father:

Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

John 15:1-2
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. ** 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Correct, and as I’ve said, the only mention of a “falling from grace” is in Gal 5, and it’s specifically linked to seeking to be justified by Law, or works, and it’s the recipient who’s actively resisting the grace, and not God withholding it, according to the grammar.
Then you have a CAtholic understanding of mortal sin. It means that the recipient is actively resisting grace, not God witholding it. 👍
 
De Maria, the verses you cite employ figures of speech; they are a way of conveying a concept.
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De Maria said:
Because you say so? I provide Scripture and you provide opinion? Who should I believe?

The following verses are in the Greek imperative, IOW, they’re Jesus’ commands; have you obeyed them, or are you being disobedient to the Lord?**Matthew 5:29

29 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 18:8

8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.**
 
Because it doesn’t.
Sure it does:

Romans 2:8
*8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, ** 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
*
That’s why the covenant of grace is, well, grace, you get what you don’t deserve,
Are you saying that those who don’t sin deserve salvation? Why?
and the covenant of law was justice, you get what you deserve.
So, if any man could have lived up to the law, they could receive salvation? Then what is the doctrine of forgiveness for?
As the Psalmist asks, “If you Lord, should mark our iniquities, who could stand?”
That is a question asked by a repentant sinner. Does that not make a difference to you?
What do you think is the answer to that question?
That if God does not forgive our sins, we are condemned to hell.

Does God forgive every man’s sins?
Salvation is not about perfection, but grace;
That is true. That is why the Jesus established the Sacrament of Penance otherwise known as Confession.
those who are saved will continue to sin,
Not necessarily. The Saints of the Catholic Church have proven that man can overcome his sinful nature by adhering to Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 4:1
*Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

*Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
as within each of them there still dwells the principle of evil and sin, and if, while the Lord is reconciling to the world to Himself through Christ, He doesn’t hold sin against them,
Of whom do you speak?

Hebrews 10:31
26**For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, **
*27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. *
  • 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: *
  • 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.*
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
how much less will He do so once He’s redeemed whom He will?
He has already paid for our redemption. It is our turn to accept that redemption by seeking salvation in patient well doing.
Grace is not a license to sin, but the redeemed are not perfect.
They certainly aren’t. Nor are they absolutely assured of salvation. Even those in the Church may fall:

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Correct, and as I’ve said, the only mention of a “falling from grace” is in Gal 5, and it’s specifically linked to seeking to be justified by Law, or works, and it’s the recipient who’s actively resisting the grace, and not God withholding it, according to the grammar.
**Galatians 5:6
**Galatians 5 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; **but faith which worketh by love.

**I don’t see it. 7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, *and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. *

*20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
*
  • 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, ***as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    **
  • 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, *
  • 23Meekness, temperance:* against such there is no law.
    *24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. *
  • 25If we live in the Spirit*, **let us also walk in the Spirit.
    **
Nope, I don’t see it at all.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Thank you for a complete reply. I was not on the internet yesterday and only read you post after a full morning.
The believer cannot sin with impunity; I’ve never advocated that, nor will I ever advocate that; what I’m saying is the sin of the believer who’s truly in Christ, will never cause the loss of his justification before God.
On this point we disagree and I think this is so in part because of the different conclusions we draw from Ez 18 and, I’m sure, other Scriptural verses.
I agree that Ezekiel is refuting the notion that children are not punished for the sins of the parents. However, I believe that this chapter does have eternal implications. Both the just and the wicked will die a physical death but the contrast of the wicked turning from sin and gaining life and the righteous turning from righteousness and suffering death implies a death other than the physical death both will undergo. Verses 31-32 indicate that God is more eager to pardon the repentant sinner than he is to punish the unrepentant one, but repentance is necessary for no sinner is free from suffering the chastisement of God.
I really don’t think that Catholics understand regeneration—do you think the sins described, describe regenerated behavior?

Can regenerate believers commit those sins? Of course; however, the proof is in the pudding: do they repent, and stop the behavior, or do they not repent, but engage in a continual pattern of the described behavior?

The true believer, he who has been justified, will repent, because God has decreed his salvation to completion (cf Rom 8:30).
This is possible only by the grace of God as St. Paul reminds us in 1 Cor 12ff “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed….” St. Paul adds a caveat to Rm 8:30 in Rm 8:17, we must suffer with Christ in order to be glorified with him. That, however, had been discussed elsewhere and will probably continue to be discussed in the future.
Putting off and putting on is a continuous activity, and I’m certain you know that; Catholics make that very clear.

IMO, the reason Catholics have difficulty understanding what I say is that Catholics believe that they alone know that, and I’m completely ignorant of that.
If you mean each day we must take up our cross and follow Christ I agree. Personally, I make no judgments as to how well informed or uninformed you are. From your posts, I consider you to be an individual genuinely seeking salvation albeit your belief in how it is achieved differs in some respects from mine.
As the Psalmist asks, “Lord, if you mark us by our iniquities, who could stand?”

How do you answer that?
I would first of all put it in context with other Penitential Psalms.

I acknowledged my sin to thee, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”; then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin. Ps 32

*Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am languishing; O LORD, heal me. Ps 69 *

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me. Ps 51

He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requite us according to our iniquities. …] As a father pities his children, so the LORD pities those who fear him. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. Ps 102

Key here is ‘those who fear him”. [Unlike Ps 36 *Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes. For he flatters himself in his own eyes that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated. The words of his mouth are mischief and deceit].

The psalmist beseeches God’s mercy, begs his forgiveness and salvation and confesses his woeful condition. These elements are implicit in Ez 18, the wicked man turning away from his sins, he repents and begs forgiveness. Were God not eager rich in mercy and eager to pardon we could not stand. The invites us to repentance: Is 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.” This idea is also provided for in the NT when the LORD gave his apostles the power to forgive sin (Jn 20:22-23); a thing he would not have done had he not foreseen the necessity of it.
 
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De Maria:
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De Maria, the verses you cite employ figures of speech; they are a way of conveying a concept.
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De Maria said:
Because you say so? I provide Scripture and you provide opinion? Who should I believe?

The following verses are in the Greek imperative, IOW, they’re Jesus’ commands; have you obeyed them, or are you being disobedient to the Lord?**Matthew 5:29

29 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 18:8

8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.**
.
:coffeeread:
 
That’s what it says, Robert; you’re bracketed additions make that clear.
My bracketed additions make clear what you wish to ADD to the text.
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sandusky:
What you would have it say (and I’ve made this point before) is this: some of all of those He justified, He didn’t glorify, but left them completely to their own free will.
I would have it say only the original intent of the writer… that those who are justified are glorified. Justification is a process that begins with baptism and faith and ends in final glorification. Those who are justified by enduring in faith as Abraham did are glorified. Because the process requires endurance, we cannot have absolute assurance. Your understanding is only supported by a very tenuous reading of these passages.
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sandusky:
Not so, Robert; they occured in eternity, are brought to fruition in time
That’s not the issue sandusky. The issue that I keep returning to has nothing to do with God’s predestination, but with our own understanding. Certainly God knows and perfects those he has predestined. The question is whether any human being can know with absolute certainty that they are predestined (as opposed to just pretending to themselves and others that they are predestined).

sandusky said:
”Having been justified by faith… an aorist participle (having happened in the past—justification), and it’s passive (was done to, and not by the believer). Justification is done.

No. Abraham’s life ended in the past, even with respect to the NT writer. Abraham was justified by enduring faith in God. You cannot say e.g. Abraham knew with absolute certainty that he was going to heaven from the moment he followed God’s command to come out of his father’s home and into the desert. What one - looking back on Abraham’s whole life - can say is that Abraham lived an active life of faith in God, and that life of enduring faith was credited to him as righteousness. This is Catholic doctrine.
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sandusky:
Justification (also called righteousness) comes from faith—Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Rom 4:3).
He believed in God for his entire life… a life lived in faith. What if Abraham had done all that God commanded, except when it came to sacrificing his only son Isaac? Would his faith prior to that point be credited as righteousness? Do you think he would be in heaven despite his direct disobedience to God’s command?
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sandusky:
The exhortation to the believer is to endure because he is justified (the indicative/imperative—you are Christ’s, live as Christ’s), not so that he may be justified.
Yes and no. To those who are initially justified, there must be continuing active faith - i.e. endurance - or there will follow a loss of that grace. A destruction of that relationship with God reestablished by the redeeming work of Christ. Paul is not saying endure or you will be chastized (but don’t worry about seeing heaven, your salvation is assured.) NO! Paul is saying work out your salvation, to those who received baptismal regeneration and were placed into a right relationship with God through Christ’s redemptive work. Endurance is mandatory, or faith is dead.
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sandusky:
According to Rom 8:30, the one God called HE ALSO justified, and the one He justified HE ALSO glorified (occurred in eternity).
Again, you’r missing the point. This passage does not say one can be assured of their personal salvation, just because they had a past moment of faith. Faith must endure - with the grace of God.
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sandusky:
God does not give all human beings sufficient grace to be saved as evidenced by many passages, including those in Jn 6—only those drawn to Christ by the Father can and will come; those not drawn by the Father do not have the ability to come, and therefore, they won’t come.
God wills that all come to Him. Many do not.
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sandusky:
I’ll speak as generally as you and state that perseverance is inherent in Rom 8; therefore, you need to re-think your understanding of the Hebrews passages in light of it, and Jn 5, 6, 10, et al.
But, as I have demonstrated, perserverence is not inherent in initial justification. Perserverence can only be determined at the end of a life, not in the course of a life.

Peace,
-Robert
 
The following verses are in the Greek imperative, IOW, they’re Jesus’ commands; have you obeyed them, or are you being disobedient to the Lord?Matthew 5:29

29 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 18:8

8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Have you confused me for a Protestant who takes the entire Bible literally?
2 Timothy 2:15
*Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
*
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the newtestament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#111

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
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