I went to a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy, but the people were pushy

[hamburglar]

I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy. A group of about 10 people from my college went to experience Eastern Catholicism. While the Divine Liturgy itself was nice, and the people were friendly and welcoming, some of them seemed to be a little pushy and arguing that Eastern Catholicism is right and Roman Catholics are wrong.

I kept on receiving comments such as that Rome persecuted all of the Eastern Catholics and that they broke off from the Eastern Churches. I was getting stuff like, “The Pope wanted power, and was threatened by the Eastern Churches, so he sent the crusades” or “Rome says that Roman Catholics had enough with Eastern Catholics, but in actuality, the Eastern Catholics did away with the Roman Church, Rome just wants you to think that the Eastern Churches broke away instead of the Western Church breaking away because they were threatened by Eastern Power.”

There were many other comments. I was presented with warped views of Roman Catholicism Theology, and why the Eastern Church is the original church, the Western Church claims they are the first.

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way. They also seemed to have a hate for statues, and said icons were they only things acceptable.

I felt like I was being shunned for being a Roman Catholic. Is this actually what Eastern Catholics think, or was this just a bad experience? I really felt like I was being bombarded by Fundamentalist Protestants who think the Papacy is all about power.

Also, this was a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and they follow the Pope. But they really did seem to have a hate for the Papacy.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Hamburglar,

How did you manage to get all those comments while you were visiting? Did you approach the members? did they approach you? Did you go to their “coffee hour” after DL? Were any other members trying to defend the unity of the Church or the Pope?

I think some Ukes might be upset about the silence of Rome about establishing a Ukranian Patriarchate, which might account for the “Rome suppressing Patriarchs” canard. In fact, in the Catholic Communion in union with Rome, Patriarchs have more prerogatives than their Eastern Orthodox counterparts. Such people as you met may not be aware of that. Also if they thought there was a right or wrong way to sign, then I don’t think they had their heads on straight in the first place. However, I am willing to assume they were only joking around on that point, and you might have taken it personally in the context of their other comments to you.

BTW, how did you respond to their comments?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[scapularkid8]

I think you just had a bad experience. I went to a Rusyn Byzantine parish a few months back and the comments they made like that were in a sarcastic manner about the “right” way to cross yourself and they were really friendly about it.

 

[hamburglar]

Dear brother Hamburglar,

How did you manage to get all those comments while you were visiting? Did you approach the members? did they approach you? Did you go to their “coffee hour” after DL? Were any other members trying to defend the unity of the Church or the Pope?/QUOTE]

I was invited to go to the coffee hour. As I said, about 10 people went to this that I knew, all of which are Roman Catholics. I’m not quite sure some of the others really know all that much about the unity of the Church. In fact, many of them didn’t know there were other Catholics that follow the Pope besides Roman Catholics. Because of this, we didn’t really defend. We definitely didn’t want any kind of heated argument to occur.
mardukm;3035038:

BTW, how did you respond to their comments?

I kinda just nodded and said verbal uh-huh’s to acknowledge that I understood what they were saying.

One guy actually was quite helpful. He lead the Matins that took place before the Divine Liturgy. I told him that I was discerning a vocation, particularly the monastic life, and he told me about the Eastern religious orders. What sparked our conversation was that I saw a book about the cause for canonization of some bishop, and I mentioned that I was “CssR” after his name, and so I mentioned that I did not know that there were Redemptorists in Eastern Catholicism.

 

[rien]

I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy. A group of about 10 people from my college went to experience Eastern Catholicism. While the Divine Liturgy itself was nice, and the people were friendly and welcoming, some of them seemed to be a little pushy and arguing that Eastern Catholicism is right and Roman Catholics are wrong.

I kept on receiving comments such as that Rome persecuted all of the Eastern Catholics and that they broke off from the Eastern Churches. I was getting stuff like, “The Pope wanted power, and was threatened by the Eastern Churches, so he sent the crusades” or “Rome says that Roman Catholics had enough with Eastern Catholics, but in actuality, the Eastern Catholics did away with the Roman Church, Rome just wants you to think that the Eastern Churches broke away instead of the Western Church breaking away because they were threatened by Eastern Power.”

There were many other comments. I was presented with warped views of Roman Catholicism Theology, and why the Eastern Church is the original church, the Western Church claims they are the first.

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way. They also seemed to have a hate for statues, and said icons were they only things acceptable.

I felt like I was being shunned for being a Roman Catholic. Is this actually what Eastern Catholics think, or was this just a bad experience? I really felt like I was being bombarded by Fundamentalist Protestants who think the Papacy is all about power.

Also, this was a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and they follow the Pope. But they really did seem to have a hate for the Papacy.

Eastern Catholics are restive and especially Ukranian Catholics. Some want to go independent. I think a breakup among Eastern catholics is coming. They are 'tired" of Roamn domination. They want, in the US, to freely ordain married men. it is restricted now.

Young Eastern Catholics seem especially intent on returning home. Where home is , is the big question.

 

[mgy100]

How did these topics even come up?

 

[Alexius]

I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy. A group of about 10 people from my college went to experience Eastern Catholicism. While the Divine Liturgy itself was nice, and the people were friendly and welcoming, some of them seemed to be a little pushy and arguing that Eastern Catholicism is right and Roman Catholics are wrong.

I kept on receiving comments such as that Rome persecuted all of the Eastern Catholics and that they broke off from the Eastern Churches. I was getting stuff like, “The Pope wanted power, and was threatened by the Eastern Churches, so he sent the crusades” or “Rome says that Roman Catholics had enough with Eastern Catholics, but in actuality, the Eastern Catholics did away with the Roman Church, Rome just wants you to think that the Eastern Churches broke away instead of the Western Church breaking away because they were threatened by Eastern Power.”

There were many other comments. I was presented with warped views of Roman Catholicism Theology, and why the Eastern Church is the original church, the Western Church claims they are the first.

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way. They also seemed to have a hate for statues, and said icons were they only things acceptable.

I felt like I was being shunned for being a Roman Catholic. Is this actually what Eastern Catholics think, or was this just a bad experience? I really felt like I was being bombarded by Fundamentalist Protestants who think the Papacy is all about power.

Also, this was a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and they follow the Pope. But they really did seem to have a hate for the Papacy.

I never experienced this at an Orthodox Church (or the mosque I went to for that matter), let alone a Catholic Church. I’ve always been warmly welcomed and accepted as equal. Perhaps you caught them at a bad time?

Also, I think by going as a group, the parishers may have been disappointed to see such a large group of “outsiders” who may have brought Latinizations and other negatives with them and decided to express their feelings to you as Roman Catholics (or whatever everyone else is) because it was an opportune time…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Ridgerunner]

Hamburgler:

Judging by what I have seen Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox post in here, it sounds to me as if you were in an EO church, not an Eastern Catholic church. The EO, at least the ones in here, call themselves “Catholic” too, you know.

I really do think you were in the wrong pew, my friend. I made the same mistake once on a Carribean island, thinking I was attending Mass at a Catholic Church. Turned out it was High Church Anglican.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Hamburglar,

I have to say that was a particularly feisty Uke parish, given the catalogue of comments you’ve presented. As my brother and friend, Marduk, suggests, there is some resentment among our Ukrainian brothers and sisters as regards Rome’s unwillingness to elevate the UGCC’s Major Archepiscopal status to that of a Patriarchate.* In fact, there are relatively few differences in the authority accorded to a patriarchal Church sui iuris versus that of a major archepiscopal Church sui iuris, nor to the primatial hierarchs of each - but there are a few - and the title and status are enough to inflame passions.

As to the other points raised, the level of dissatisfaction certainly exceeds that which I’d ordinarily expect to encounter in a typical UGCC parish. (Had you heard this from 1 or 2 parishioners, I’d be less surprised; as a congregational view – or one expressed by a significant number of those present - it is surprising. You weren’t at Ss V&O in Chicago, by chance?)

Regarding the book about a bishop’s cause for canonization, it was likely in reference to either Blessed Vladyka Vasyl (Velychkovsk) or Blessed Vladyka Nicolas (Charnetsky), both Redemptorists.

I mentioned that I did not know that there were Redemptorists in Eastern Catholicism.

The Redemptorists have a strong history of service to the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, particularly - but not limited to the UGCC. For instance, His Beatitude Varkey Cardinal Vithayathil, CSsR, is the incumbent Major Archbishop of Ernakulam-Angamaly of the Syro-Malabarese - the primatial hierarch of that Church sui iuris

Many years,

Neil

*I’m perplexed by Marduk’s remark, however, as to the authority of an EC Patriarch versus that of an EO Patriarch - not only can I not see the relevance, but I’d be very disinclined to agree with the statement without some in-depth analysis, which I suspect would find the opposite. Not that the differences would be of great significance, but they do exist.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Also, this was a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and they follow the Pope. But they really did seem to have a hate for the Papacy.

does the parish you visited have a website? i’m not sure if you can post it in the open thread as i think discussing individual parishes is against the forum rules, but you could pm it to me.

 

[Kuryakyn]

Hamburgler:

Judging by what I have seen Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox post in here, it sounds to me as if you were in an EO church, not an Eastern Catholic church. The EO, at least the ones in here, call themselves “Catholic” too, you know.

I really do think you were in the wrong pew, my friend. I made the same mistake once on a Carribean island, thinking I was attending Mass at a Catholic Church. Turned out it was High Church Anglican.

Hamburglar: This could be very true-- there is a parish in my town that has it’s title as “Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church” but is actually part of the local Orthodox diocese.

I have to say that I have never heard anyone in my parish speak in the manner you describe of the pope or anyone/anything in the Roman rite. I would bear in mind for your case, in addition to what was said above, that some Ukrainians can be very opinionated and will not hesitate in telling you everything that is wrong with the world. Not all, definitely, but there are certainly some. And they aren’t always accurate when they get excited. Believe me, I’ve experienced this many, many times.

 

[Pani_Rose]

He said ‘he and twelve other students’.

This Church is a tried Church - they have their lines down, becuase they have been questioned by so many Roman Catholic students. I bet they have been told by so many people that Rome is right, they have become defensive. It really sounds like they have learned to get the first words out, without letting the students ask them. You know, they see it as a battle!

I am truly sorry this happened to you, I don’t think it is the norm in EC churches.

 

[Hesychios]

Hamburgler:

Judging by what I have seen Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox post in here, it sounds to me as if you were in an EO church, not an Eastern Catholic church.

I think you are rationalizing too much.

Come on really, do you honestly think that these people, as a group of serious students of religion, could have been misdirected to an Orthodox church? Almost no one makes that mistake, certainly not a group of students on a planned trip who ask questions and (usually) make phone calls before going. It is an especially difficult mistake to make in retelling afterward, consider that the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy commemorates the Pope three or four times.

Even in the few years I attended an Eastern Catholic church I had enough experiences of abusive Triumphalistic comments from RC (many were students, others were just RC venture seekers) to last a lifetime, and I was essentially a Latin myself.

It is very conceivable that this is not the first batch of Roman Catholic students to pass through this Eastern Catholic parish on a field trip. Although they might have been the most polite and respectful bunch ever, they would still come in with Roman Catholic preconceived notions that will be noticed immediately.

If these Ukrainians had been through any of the abusive experiences my parish had gone through since about 1915, and I only got a brief taste of in a few years time…they might have just about had enough of it. And good for them, they speak out what they really think and feel.

So quit trying to sweep this unpleasant situation under the rug…it has happened before and will happen again in different places and times, deal with it honestly. It’s your church after all.

The EO, at least the ones in here, call themselves “Catholic” too, you know.

NO WE DON’T, NOT ON THIS FORUM – WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO.

Michael

 

[Mickey]

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way.

Years ago, when I was still in the Roman Catholic Church, I had been briefly exposed to Eastern Catholicism. My very first question to my Roman Catholic priest was in regard to the Eastern difference with the sign of the Cross.

His response was: “What can I tell ya, the East got it wrong”.

 

[Edmac]

Come on, folks, this thread has turned into fantasy land!
The parishoners were like this or that, the students did this or
that. Without a highly improbable report from a neutral
third party observer, we can’t tell what happened and why.

Well, having said that let me add to the fantasy a bit.
Perhaps you will agree that every parish has its Pains in
the Butt (or difficult personalities, if you want to be more
charitable). I find that ours run to latch on to visitors, try to
monopolize them, and fill them with misinformation. It only
takes two or three such to give a totally misleading picture of
the parish to visitors, especially if they are what we might call
“religiously agressive”.

Could be that one or more of the students were of the same kind.

No way to know.

Edmac

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Edmac,

I just wanted to welcome you heartily to the CAF. I am honored to see a Russian Catholic here. The sufferings of your people due to the communists (and, unfortunately, also the ROC after the fall of communism - though hopefully that is now no longer the case) will surely gain you and yours tremendous riches in heaven.

Abundant Blessings,
Marduk

 

[hamburglar]

Okay, I feel that the parish as a whole was very friendly. (I’m not sure they call it a parish, though). This parish was exceptionally small. If they could fit 100 people inside I would be surprised. There was a snow storm on the Saturday before, so the attendance was a little down. However, the people said that we made the attendance about the same as it regularly is. Oh yeah, I recounted there were 8 of us total that went, myself plus 7 others.

Excluding us, there were probably 10 or 15 people that participated in the Divine Liturgy. So the size was in the twenties, maybe less.

I know the priest, and although he has never said anything about how Rome is wrong, I can still feel a sentiment that he feels that the East is better. I mean, I guess that makes sense, seeing that one would chose the church that one perceives as “better”, whatever better means to you. He did seem to have dislike for Roman Catholic devotions such as the Rosary and statuary.

The church was called “St. _____ Ukrainian Catholic Church”. I left out the name of the patron since I think someone said we are not allowed to speak of particular parishes. I met a couple who is natively Ruthenian, and the Deacon was something besides Ukrainian, I can not remember. The priest was Ukrainian. So I am pretty sure that this was a Catholic church, not Orthodox.

One of the things that really turned me off was their warped understanding of Roman Theology. Also, they may not have their facts straight concerning the “persecution” they get from Rome.

 

[Woodstock]

I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy. A group of about 10 people from my college went to experience Eastern Catholicism.

That must have been intimidating for them! You doubled their numbers! It might have been even more intimidating if your group appeared cold, judgmental, or condescending. Some ways members of the group might have unintentionally appeared so include:

• Wearing conservative church attire like suits or jackets or mantillas to a parish which doesn’t have that as its norm.
• Not calling the church in advance to ask questions or tell them of your planned visit. This isn’t needed, but it is a courtesy that would be nice to extend to keep them from being surprised when bringing such a large group.
• Standing in the back together and not appearing welcoming to their presence. Some ways might be being tight-lipped or quickly refusing offers to assist you.
• Whispering to each other in what doesn’t appear to be a joyful manner.
• Not actively participating in the Liturgy either by action or attention.
• Bringing Latin postures or practices into the Liturgy, like kneeling or genuflecting.
• Looking around at the church or the people taking note at what is or isn’t there. The difference between thinking, “The icons surrounding everything is an interesting difference,” and, “I see they don’t have Stations or headcoverings, and I don’t like the icons, and that woman isn’t kneeling when she should be” is obvious on the face.
• Asking questions in a way which presupposed Latin positions. “Why don’t you have the Stations of the Cross on the wall?” instead of “Do Ukrainian Catholics not have a devotion to the Stations of the Cross?”

I was getting stuff like, “The Pope wanted power, and was threatened by the Eastern Churches, so he sent the crusades” or “Rome says that Roman Catholics had enough with Eastern Catholics, but in actuality, the Eastern Catholics did away with the Roman Church, Rome just wants you to think that the Eastern Churches broke away instead of the Western Church breaking away because they were threatened by Eastern Power.”

There were many other comments. I was presented with warped views of Roman Catholicism Theology, and why the Eastern Church is the original church, the Western Church claims they are the first.

That sounds like one guy’s take on history. Were all the people saying this or was it one or two people saying this? I think every parish has one or two people like this and their personalities are the type to seek out visitors and share their “knowledge.” Others in the parish are not aware of all they say or don’t want to cause waves within the parish over it considering that they aren’t as versed in history and can’t conclusively put the know-it-alls in their place.

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way. They also seemed to have a hate for statues, and said icons were they only things acceptable.

It sounds like they are learning their own faith and practices and are still on the defensive feeling a need to justify why they do things differently. The people saying this might be the result of the suppression of the Eastern faith for so long and might not be mature enough in their faith to explain it without needing to justify it.

I felt like I was being shunned for being a Roman Catholic. Is this actually what Eastern Catholics think, or was this just a bad experience? I really felt like I was being bombarded by Fundamentalist Protestants who think the Papacy is all about power.

That paragraph describes a phenomenon I’ve seen in convert parishes. I’ve not encountered that in a Ukrainian Catholic Church as the language barrier makes it less likely to have a convert parish, but I assume it is just as possible. I have found it in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox parishes, and when I have that’s exactly how I would describe them.

It is possible their priest has begun catechizing them, and if that is the case it is possible either the priest’s faith is not mature and he’s teaching them this bias or the people he is speaking to are not yet mature and took what he said and zealously applied it outside their knowledge base. It is possible you found a small group of “converts” to Eastern Catholicism who despise the Pope and all Roman Catholics and they sought refuge in the East, picking and choosing the parts of history to remember or believe.

It is statistically more probable that your group of 10 Roman Catholic students unintentionally put them on the defensive, that they are not overly hospitable and therefore your group felt unwelcomed, and the one or two outspoken know-it-alls did most of the talking to you.

 

[a_pilgrim]

Also, they may not have their facts straight concerning the “persecution” they get from Rome.

Please describe the facts as they related them to you regarding the “persecution” you speak of.

Thanks!

 

[East_and_West]

I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy. A group of about 10 people from my college went to experience Eastern Catholicism. While the Divine Liturgy itself was nice, and the people were friendly and welcoming, some of them seemed to be a little pushy and arguing that Eastern Catholicism is right and Roman Catholics are wrong.

I kept on receiving comments such as that Rome persecuted all of the Eastern Catholics and that they broke off from the Eastern Churches. I was getting stuff like, “The Pope wanted power, and was threatened by the Eastern Churches, so he sent the crusades” or “Rome says that Roman Catholics had enough with Eastern Catholics, but in actuality, the Eastern Catholics did away with the Roman Church, Rome just wants you to think that the Eastern Churches broke away instead of the Western Church breaking away because they were threatened by Eastern Power.”

There were many other comments. I was presented with warped views of Roman Catholicism Theology, and why the Eastern Church is the original church, the Western Church claims they are the first.

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way. They also seemed to have a hate for statues, and said icons were they only things acceptable.

I felt like I was being shunned for being a Roman Catholic. Is this actually what Eastern Catholics think, or was this just a bad experience? I really felt like I was being bombarded by Fundamentalist Protestants who think the Papacy is all about power.

Also, this was a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and they follow the Pope. But they really did seem to have a hate for the Papacy.

My friend who was in seminary was required to visit a Byzantine Catholic Church one Sunday along with other seminarians. The priest used the homily to lecture the seminarians about how, “You Latins Sacked Constantinople”. I found the comment odd as none of these seminarians were alive at the time of the sack of Constantinople. In fact, there isn’t even a Constantinople in existence today.