I went to a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy, but the people were pushy

[grandfather]

One of the things that really turned me off was their warped understanding of Roman Theology. Also, they may not have their facts straight concerning the “persecution” they get from Rome.

My parish is UC. We receive visitors regularly and welcome them warmly, student groups and adults. There is never any friction or controversial conversation. Sometimes the priest after liturgy will speak to them in the church to answer any questions they might have. There are natural preferences people have when there are differences in forms of worship. There is nothing wrong with thinking yours is better, or you like yours best. There is something wrong with being obnoxious about it. I was raised in the RCC. I prefer the UC DL, because I have experienced so much liturgical abuse in the Roman Church that I was offended and the eastern liturgy is traditional and beautiful. There is no doubt that there are some bad memories. Rome in the past has been heavy handed and unjust with eastern rites, including treatment in the U.S., so there is some lingering resentment. The fact that as guests in any parish you were ambushed with apparent hostlity rather than being welcomed in hospitality is rude.

 

[hamburglar]

Wearing conservative church attire like suits or jackets or mantillas to a parish which doesn’t have that as its norm.

I wore khakis and a long-sleeve button up shirt (not a dressy one, though.) The others wore a variety, from blue jeans and a zip up fleece, to a sweater and semi-dressy black pants, and the two girls dressed up a bit, one wore a casual dress, the other somewhat nice pants and a blouse.

Not calling the church in advance to ask questions or tell them of your planned visit. This isn’t needed, but it is a courtesy that would be nice to extend to keep them from being surprised when bringing such a large group.

I was not the one who planned this, however, I am pretty sure the priest knew we were coming.

Standing in the back together and not appearing welcoming to their presence. Some ways might be being tight-lipped or quickly refusing offers to assist you.

There were only around 5 rows of pews. There was a lady in the 2nd row on the left side, we sat in the 3rd and 4th rows on the left side. The lady in front of us was very kind and helpful, and we were grateful for her help in directing us where we were in the little follow along books.

Whispering to each other in what doesn’t appear to be a joyful manner.

None of us whispered during the Divine Liturgy.

Not actively participating in the Liturgy either by action or attention.

All of us actively participated. We all adopted things such as kissing the Gospel, receiving communion from the spoon, and we all sang.

The only thing I can think of that we did not adopt was that at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, we did not kiss the tetrapod (I think that’s what it was called, it was a table with an icon placed upon a pillow-type thing.) We actually didn’t even know we were supposed to do that until the people that came in after us did it. Myself, and I am sure the others, did not want to all of a sudden leave the pews and kiss the icon, as this would probably be out of place and maybe distracting.

Bringing Latin postures or practices into the Liturgy, like kneeling or genuflecting.

None of us genuflected or kneeled. Regarding the right to left shoulder for the sign of the cross, about half of us adopted the Ukrainian way, half did left to right. I did right to left. The only thing I personally did that might be only a Latin thing was slightly bowing my head when the names Jesus or Virgin Mary, or the when the Trinity was mentioned. I do this outside of Mass, too.

Looking around at the church or the people taking note at what is or isn’t there. The difference between thinking, “The icons surrounding everything is an interesting difference,” and, “I see they don’t have Stations or headcoverings, and I don’t like the icons, and that woman isn’t kneeling when she should be” is obvious on the face.

Nope, I don’t think we did that.

Asking questions in a way which presupposed Latin positions. “Why don’t you have the Stations of the Cross on the wall?” instead of “Do Ukrainian Catholics not have a devotion to the Stations of the Cross?”

They did most of the talking. And by most I mean pretty much all.

Once again, I would just like to restate that I felt the people as a whole were friendly. The people invited us downstairs to drink the coffee with them. And the priest actually made a prayer intention for the us and the students at my college, during when he says the petitions. (forgive me if that is not what the Eastern Catholics call it.)

The “know-it-alls” really made sure that they mentioned how they used to be Roman Catholic, and they found “the real liturgy” in the East. Unfortunately, there were probably 2 know-it-alls in a group of 10 or so people, and that is a fairly high percentage. And those were really the people that were the most talkative, the 2 that were sure to emphasize that they were converts. The Ruthenian couple was very friendly, however.

One of these “know-it-alls” seemed to be really upset about how the Divine Liturgy was in English. I kinda expected it to be in Ukrainian or Slavonic, whatever it was written in.

Also, it seemed that some of the people emphasized that the Divine Liturgy was written in like the 3rd century. They were mentioned how the Roman Catholic Masses were fairly new, with the Pauline/Novus Ordo within the last 50 years.

 

[Woodstock]

According to your above, I’d say you guys were the unfortunate victims of one or more circumstances outside your control. My guesses on what they could have been were written above and I’ve copied them below. I’m sorry this was your introduction to the east.

I’m curious about the priest, since you said it isn’t given parish status. I’m wondering if it might be a bi-ritual RC priest who is disaffected with the west and is offering a UGCC mission which is populated by RCs who are under his biased tutelage. You don’t need to answer me, but if you find out it might explain it to you. It would make the pieces of the puzzle fit together if that is the situation.

Woodstock:

That sounds like one guy’s take on history. Were all the people saying this or was it one or two people saying this? I think every parish has one or two people like this and their personalities are the type to seek out visitors and share their “knowledge.” Others in the parish are not aware of all they say or don’t want to cause waves within the parish over it considering that they aren’t as versed in history and can’t conclusively put the know-it-alls in their place.

It sounds like they are learning their own faith and practices and are still on the defensive feeling a need to justify why they do things differently. The people saying this might be the result of the suppression of the Eastern faith for so long and might not be mature enough in their faith to explain it without needing to justify it.

That paragraph describes a phenomenon I’ve seen in convert parishes. I’ve not encountered that in a Ukrainian Catholic Church as the language barrier makes it less likely to have a convert parish, but I assume it is just as possible. I have found it in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox parishes, and when I have that’s exactly how I would describe them.

It is possible their priest has begun catechizing them, and if that is the case it is possible either the priest’s faith is not mature and he’s teaching them this bias or the people he is speaking to are not yet mature and took what he said and zealously applied it outside their knowledge base. It is possible you found a small group of “converts” to Eastern Catholicism who despise the Pope and all Roman Catholics and they sought refuge in the East, picking and choosing the parts of history to remember or believe.

 

[Edmac]

Very good, Hamburglar. You are to be commended for your
patience and your charity. Some of the remarks made in this
thread must have been very offensive to you and your companions.
I begin to think that I guessed rightly in my earlier post, that
you were attacked by a few ideologues and that the majority of
the parishoners were amiable towards you. I would think that
many of the parishioners were embarassed by these people.

If you and your friends wish to become more familiar with
Eastern Christianity, Catholic or Orthodox, don’t be discouraged.
There are looney-toons everywhere. Pay them no mind. The vast
majority of us WANT you to come to know us and our Churches.
And I admonish you, fellow Eastern Christians, Catholic and
Orthodox, to keep your eyes and ears open and protect honest
enquirers from your parish nut-jobs.You know who they are just as I know who mine are.

Edmac

 

[hamburglar]

I’m curious about the priest, since you said it isn’t given parish status. I’m wondering if it might be a bi-ritual RC priest who is disaffected with the west and is offering a UGCC mission which is populated by RCs who are under his biased tutelage. You don’t need to answer me, but if you find out it might explain it to you. It would make the pieces of the puzzle fit together if that is the situation.

I did not say it wasn’t given parish status. I said that I didn’t know if Eastern Catholics called their church building “parishes” or not.

Anyway, the priest is Ukrainian Catholic. He cannot say the Roman Catholic Mass, and he cannot say the Divine Liturgy without his Bishop’s approval.

 

[Woodstock]

I did not say it wasn’t given parish status. I said that I didn’t know if Eastern Catholics called their church building “parishes” or not.

I misunderestood.

(I’m not sure they call it a parish, though). This parish was exceptionally small.

I thought you were making a distinction between mission and parish status, which is a difference in size mostly. Yes, churches are called parishes. The church building proper is also commonly called a temple.

 

[grandfather]

The city where my UC parish is located has three RC parishes. A priest at one of them tells people that the Eucharist at the UC parish is invalid. The parish has been there for decades and the priest is incardinated properly in the eparchy. In fact he has been a priest longer than any of the RC priests in town. What a mess. This priest has to know what he is saying is false. The result is that his duplicity causes a loss of respect.form him and reflects on the priesthood. I have mentioned this to other RC priests and they don’t even know how to respond.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

My friend who was in seminary was required to visit a Byzantine Catholic Church one Sunday along with other seminarians. The priest used the homily to lecture the seminarians about how, “You Latins Sacked Constantinople”. I found the comment odd as none of these seminarians were alive at the time of the sack of Constantinople. In fact, there isn’t even a Constantinople in existence today.

Funny, I’ve been there.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

hamburglar,

Your subsequent description of those who ambushed you makes a pretty clear case for them being disaffected Latin traditionalists who decided that the East was a place of refuge for them when all in the West was not what they decided it should be.

I know that my brothers and dear friends, Michael/Hesychios and Al/a pilgrim, know of persons such as that - we have all encountered them in the past few decades. Folks who ran from the West, rather than to the East. It would appear that these particular ones took it a step further than usual - rather than seeking to impose latinizations on the parish, they decided to be “more Eastern than the Easterners”.

All in all, I’d say visit again, alone or with a couple of your friends, avoid the fanatics and immerse yourself in the Liturgy.

Many years,

Neil, who found himself very much distressed to hear from E&W that there is no Constantinople and thanks his brother, Isa, for the reassurance that he has not believed a lie all these years

 

[East_and_West]

Funny, I’ve been there.

Umm. There used to be a Constantinople. Today, there is an Istanbul.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

My friend who was in seminary was required to visit a Byzantine Catholic Church one Sunday along with other seminarians. The priest used the homily to lecture the seminarians about how, “You Latins Sacked Constantinople”. I found the comment odd as none of these seminarians were alive at the time of the sack of Constantinople. In fact, there isn’t even a Constantinople in existence today.

I can think of a priest who would do just that… He was raised and ordained a Latin, then transferred to a Byzantine Church and serves a parish of 65%+ immigrant cradle Eastsern Catholics… Yet still pedantically begins at least 75% of his sermons “Now in the East we…” all well and good, I am sure, but the majority of this congregation have been Eastern Catholics longer than Father has been ordained…

[Moderator Note: A comment on the sack of Constantinople generated enough off-topic posts to create a new thread from them. Please http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=203315”]see here for the new thread.]

 

[Woodstock]

I would be pretty appalled if a group of Caucasian students went to a black church and the homily was about how they had kept the church goer’s relatives captive in brutal slavery, and the coffee hour was about how all Caucasians are wrong and descendants of slave holders. Not only is their history blatantly wrong, but their presentation is beyond rude considering their unsuspecting target audience.

That slavery was real, was horrific, was a part of many black Americans’ lives, and the memory of it is kept alive as it should be does not in any way mitigate their blaming all Caucasians, much less laying blame with their first-time visitors who are generations removed and possibly not even remotely connected to the atrocity.

Some know-it-all at some Ukrainian Catholic Church needs to learn how to discern the appropriate time, place, and method to impart history, and he needs to be sure he’s got his facts straight before he does it. Otherwise his poor judgment reflects badly on all of us.

 

[Ghosty]

The “know-it-alls” really made sure that they mentioned how they used to be Roman Catholic, and they found “the real liturgy” in the East. Unfortunately, there were probably 2 know-it-alls in a group of 10 or so people, and that is a fairly high percentage. And those were really the people that were the most talkative, the 2 that were sure to emphasize that they were converts. The Ruthenian couple was very friendly, however.

Stick with the natives whenever you can.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Edmac]

I see that I was right. Two or three of the parishes’ nut-jobs
glommed onto these students and gave them a negative
impression not only of the parish but of Eastern Churches in
general. Shame on the other parishioners for not running interference. All you Eastern Christians out there take
note! Don’t let this happen in your parish.

Edmac

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I see that I was right. Two or three of the parishes’ nut-jobs
glommed onto these students and gave them a negative
impression not only of the parish but of Eastern Churches in
general. Shame on the other parishioners for not running interference. All you Eastern Christians out there take
note! Don’t let this happen in your parish.

Edmac

We had the very unexpected and unannounced joy of having some 30+ Latins invade a few weekends ago to attend our liturgy. They were part of a group of Catholics that actually do door-to-door evangelism inviting people to visit to come to understand Jesus and His Catholic Church. In an effort to get a broad taste of the Catholic parishes of our city, they have been roamin’ Catholics for the past few weeks going to different parishes.

Father insisted they all join us for coffee hour and we were delighted to have them. The next weekend some wayward seminarians who did not have a Sunday assignment from the local Latin sem came to visit (many of them from a diocese in the Southwest where we have no presence) and they too were invited to our coffee hour (which was actually a dinner that sunday) and treated like dignataries.

Folks from both have pledged to return for vespers sometime and visit often and we were happy to have them and provide hospitality.

I can say for certain that our parish is a welcoming one, and I am proud of how we reach out respectfully to newcomers. I am also proud of how generous the parish has been with an Orthodox mission in need of a building, and an Orthodox parish that suffered a fire - both have used our church.

We have a number of committed parishoners who were former RCs (but not refugees- I HATE that term) who went years of being NOTHING. They did not run from Rome, they ran to us. We are happy to have them. We also have a number of converts who were from a variety of backgrounds - from Judaism, to agnostic backgrounds, Methodists and one or two (self-described!) “lapsed heathens”.

But let it be known and let me go on record as saying, this is not always how it plays out, and our lack of hospitality if and when it happens is just plain WRONG. What we have we don’t have for “just us” but rather we have to share. I hope we are doing just that - the future of Eastern Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) in the US totally depends on our concerted efforts to reach out, to welcome back, and to share our faith.

 

[Ahimsa]

It really sounds like they have learned to get the first words out, without letting the students ask them. You know, they see it as a battle!

Oh, you mean like CAF?

 

[grandfather]

We have a number of committed parishoners who were former RCs (but not refugees- I HATE that term) who went years of being NOTHING. .

I am a refugee. I am a refugee from a parish that was built by a priest who went to prison for 14 years. Guess why! A refugee from a parish whose associate was an editor for a radical gay magazine and who ran gay seminars in the parish to enlighten us and gave out condoms at church socials. And a parish where the priest sat on the sidelines where a woman said the Mass. I am a refugee from a parish where the associate who had a PhD in moral theology baptized two gay men living together in the nude full immersion in the back of the Church. Very pastoral! All the while the bishop did nothing in response to complaints, but settled his lawsuit for many millions. I am a refugee from insanity and found sanity in a UC parish. Might as well call it what it is. Constantinople may have been sacked by Latins, but now the Latin Church is being sacked by Latins. The light shall return, but I needed to find a place where I did not have to worship in agony caused by the clergy. It has not been 800 years that these memories have been kept alive, only about 15.

 

[Edmac]

We seem to be getting kind of off topic in the most recent posts.
I have no doubt that the vast majority of my fellow Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox brothers and sisters) are only too happy
to welcome visitors of whatever background. Just don’t let the
whackos we all have get hold of them.

Edmac

 

[Holly3278]

They should not be saying that Roman Catholics are wrong. All Catholics that are in union with the Pope are correct.

 

[hamburglar]

They should not be saying that Roman Catholics are wrong. All Catholics that are in union with the Pope are correct.

I think that is well put. Eastern and Western Catholics both are correct. Neither one of us is more correct than the other.

We have different ways of celebrating our liturgies. And that is perfectly fine. The theology is the same, we just choose to express it in different ways.

While I enjoyed the Divine Liturgy, I am still the most attracted to the Tridentine Latin Mass. I also enjoy the Pauline/Novus Ordo when it is celebrated PROPERLY. The problem with many parishes is that priests get experimental. One thing I do like about the Eastern Liturgy is that I don’t see it being abused very easily. Like the Tridentine Latin Mass, anywhere you go, the Divine Liturgy will be the same. No room for people to bring strange customs and liturgical abuses.

If I were more attracted to the Divine Liturgy than I am to the Tridentine Latin Mass, I would see no problem with me “converting.” I guess it’s not really converting, since we are both part of the same universal Church.

It really is a shame, however, that very few people know about Eastern Catholicism. Most Catholics I meet don’t know that the Mass can still be celebrated in Latin, let alone a whole other style of worship found in the Eastern Churches!