I went to a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy, but the people were pushy

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From what I have read, the Pope can celebrate all Rites.

The Pope is All-Rite!šŸ˜ƒ
 
Seamus_L said:
I love Ukrainians. Of the various Eastern Churches, they along with the Maronites are closest to Rome in their spirituality.
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I think that is one of the problemsā€“it wasnā€™t always like that!

As for an Eastern Catholic becoming Popeā€¦:o It does not seem properā€“possible, yesā€“proper, no. Why? Because the Pope is Bishop of Rome, or Patriarch of the Roman See. Rome is Latin rite and rules over all Latin Catholics, so for an Easterner to become Pope, that would kind of seem odd. As odd as having Latins rule Easterners like they did during the Crusadesā€¦:eek:

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
hamburglar said:
I donā€™t understand the difference between Roman Rite and Latin Rite.
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It is an artificial distinction being used at CAF to distinguish between the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass. The Latin Church has three rites not exclusively affiliated with religious communities. Those are the Latin Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, and the Ambrosian Rite. The Latin Rite has under it the Traditional Latin Mass, the Novus Ordo, and the Anglican Use. Iā€™m sure there are other small recensions, declensions, or whatever other sub-categorizations people could come up with, but they are all under the Latin Rite which is used by the Latin Church.

Some documents use Roman Rite and Latin Rite interchangeably, just as they use Eastern Catholic and Oriental Catholic interchangeably. On the Eastern board, it is common to use Latin Church, Latin Rite, and to clarify Novus Ordo or TLM if needed. Latins and Roman Catholics are used interchangeably here while TLM participants are referred to as Traditionalist Latins most frequently.
 
Actually, where I used to live I regularly attended the UGCC church, though I am Latin Catholic. I got to know the pastor and most of the ppl in the small parish. It was a wonderful little family and they were always good to me.

So one day I thought I would see what the Orthodox parish was like. It was much larger. I knew not to go to communion and didnt. I just sat toward the back and sang along with the liturgy. The liturgy was very similar except they had a larger choir and sang more harmonies than the little UGCC parish. I was feeling very positive and at home til I went up to greet the pastor. I told him I was a Roman Catholic and was familiar with Eastern liturgy from the UGCC parish in town.

Immediately, his face looked angry. In his thick Greek accent yelled three times in my face ā€œUniate, Uniate, Uniate!ā€ and poked me in the chest each time. Then he rolled his eyes and turned and walked away.

I froze for a second and didnā€™t know what to say. People were looking at me so I just turned and left right away. It was awful.

I then told the local UGCC pastor about it and he told me that same thing happened to him when he visited the OCA priest when he first arrived. We both just shook our heads.

But I never experienced anything but kindness in the UGCC church.

God Bless All
 
Woodstock said:
It is an artificial distinction being used at CAF to distinguish between the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass. The Latin Church has three rites not exclusively affiliated with religious communities. Those are the Latin Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, and the Ambrosian Rite. The Latin Rite has under it the Traditional Latin Mass, the Novus Ordo, and the Anglican Use. Iā€™m sure there are other small recensions, declensions, or whatever other sub-categorizations people could come up with, but they are all under the Latin Rite which is used by the Latin Church.

Some documents use Roman Rite and Latin Rite interchangeably, just as they use Eastern Catholic and Oriental Catholic interchangeably. On the Eastern board, it is common to use Latin Church, Latin Rite, and to clarify Novus Ordo or TLM if needed. Latins and Roman Catholics are used interchangeably here while TLM participants are referred to as Traditionalist Latins most frequently.
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Okay, so would I consider myself Roman Catholic - Latin Rite or Latin Catholic - Roman Rite?
 
Alexius said:
I think that is one of the problemsā€“it wasnā€™t always like that!

As for an Eastern Catholic becoming Popeā€¦:o It does not seem properā€“possible, yesā€“proper, no. Why? Because the Pope is Bishop of Rome, or Patriarch of the Roman See. Rome is Latin rite and rules over all Latin Catholics, so for an Easterner to become Pope, that would kind of seem odd. As odd as having Latins rule Easterners like they did during the Crusadesā€¦:eek:

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
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Well, whatā€™s wrong with that? You seem fearful that if this happened you may lose something to complain about ā€¦ maybe it will calm some of the fears of being ā€œforcedā€ to become Latin which historically had happened but maybe an Eastern Catholic pope would work wonders to prove to all Eastern Catholics(and maybe Orthodox) that unity is possibleā€¦ while repsecting the diversity of all the rites within the church

For now than ever with the attacks upon our faith by secular progressive and such we need to unifyā€¦ itā€™s probably beyond my understanding but when the two sides agree on 98-99% of the issues why should we continue to fight with each other rather than try to mend fencesā€¦ I cannot imagine the Lord being pleased with the way his family is fighting amongst themselves.
 
hamburglar said:
Okay, so would I consider myself Roman Catholic - Latin Rite or Latin Catholic - Roman Rite?
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I donā€™t know what you would consider yourself, but I would say in casual conversation that you are Roman Catholic. Being more precise, I would say you are a Latin Catholic, implying Latin Rite. In the east, people belong to a Church. In the Latin Church they belong to a rite. So I would say someone else is a Melkite, not a Byzantine Rite Catholic. But Latins are identified by rite, so thatā€™s how I would identify you.

If you are a traditionalist, I would casually say you are a Traditional Roman Catholic. Being more precise, I would say you are a Traditionalist Latin [Rite] Catholic.

I havenā€™t had someone misunderstand my intention yet, but it probably isnā€™t the only ā€œsystemā€ in use.
 
Woodstock said:
I donā€™t know what you would consider yourself, but I would say in casual conversation that you are Roman Catholic. Being more precise, I would say you are a Latin Catholic, implying Latin Rite. In the east, people belong to a Church. In the Latin Church they belong to a rite. So I would say someone else is a Melkite, not a Byzantine Rite Catholic. But Latins are identified by rite, so thatā€™s how I would identify you.

If you are a traditionalist, I would casually say you are a Traditional Roman Catholic. Being more precise, I would say you are a Traditionalist Latin [Rite] Catholic.

I havenā€™t had someone misunderstand my intention yet, but it probably isnā€™t the only ā€œsystemā€ in use.
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I still donā€™t see the difference between the terms Latin Rite and Roman Rite.
 
Hamburglar,

There is no ā€œRoman Riteā€ - such terminology is little-used and shouldnā€™t probably be encouraged.

Latin Church = Western Church = Roman Church

The Latin Church, by whatever name, employs the:
  • Latin Rite
  • Ambrosian Rite
  • Bragan Rite
  • Mozarabic Rite
  • Religious Order Rites
  • Benedictine Rite
  • Carmelite Rite (aka Rite of the Holy Sepulchre)
  • Carthusian Rite
  • Cistercian Rite
  • Dominican Rite
  • Norbertine Rite (aka Premonstratensian Rite)
  • Servite Rite
Although not all of the Religious Order Rites are strictly Rites and not all are relevant to liturgical praxis.

Formerly, the Latin Church also included the:
  • Celtic Rite
  • Gallican Rite
  • Lyonnaise Rite
  • Sarum Rite
Remnants of those Rites survive in local rubrics in those parts of the Europe where they once predominated.

The Latin Rite itself employs the:
  • Anglican Usage
  • Slavonic Indult (aka the Glagolitic Indult)
  • Novus Ordo, so-called
  • Traditional Latin Mass, so-called
The Anglican Usage and the Slavonic Indult are very limited.

Also, in a unique circumstance, the Italo-Grieco-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris is wholly contained within the Latin Church sui iuris.

As to what you are - a Latin Catholic, most probably. A Roman Catholic in common parlance (and, likely, a better description, as ā€œLatin Catholicā€ is likely, in years to come, be adopted as the styling of those persons who generally restrict their liturgical praxis to the Latin Mass - those now commonly styled ā€œTraditional Catholicsā€).

Many years,

Neil
 
The rite for the Eucharist in the Latin Rite Church is contained in the Roman Missal. I suspect this may have contributed to the confused term ā€œRoman Rite.ā€

Just a hunch.
 
Irish_Melkite said:
Hamburglar,

There is no ā€œRoman Riteā€ - such terminology is little-used and shouldnā€™t probably be encouraged.

Latin Church = Western Church = Roman Church

The Latin Church, by whatever name, employs the:
  • Latin Rite
  • Ambrosian Rite
  • Bragan Rite
  • Mozarabic Rite
  • Religious Order Rites
  • Benedictine Rite
  • Carmelite Rite (aka Rite of the Holy Sepulchre)
  • Carthusian Rite
  • Cistercian Rite
  • Dominican Rite
  • Norbertine Rite (aka Premonstratensian Rite)
  • Servite Rite
Although not all of the Religious Order Rites are strictly Rites and not all are relevant to liturgical praxis.

Formerly, the Latin Church also included the:
  • Celtic Rite
  • Gallican Rite
  • Lyonnaise Rite
  • Sarum Rite
Remnants of those Rites survive in local rubrics in those parts of the Europe where they once predominated.

The Latin Rite itself employs the:
  • Anglican Usage
  • Slavonic Indult (aka the Glagolitic Indult)
  • Novus Ordo, so-called
  • Traditional Latin Mass, so-called
The Anglican Usage and the Slavonic Indult are very limited.

Also, in a unique circumstance, the Italo-Grieco-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris is wholly contained within the Latin Church sui iuris.

As to what you are - a Latin Catholic, most probably. A Roman Catholic in common parlance (and, likely, a better description, as ā€œLatin Catholicā€ is likely, in years to come, be adopted as the styling of those persons who generally restrict their liturgical praxis to the Latin Mass - those now commonly styled ā€œTraditional Catholicsā€).

Many years,

Neil
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If the Roman Rite doesnā€™t actually exist, why does the Catholic Encyclopedia have an article?

newadvent.org/cathen/13155a.htm
 
Arthur22124 said:
So one day I thought I would see what the Orthodox parish was like. It was much larger. I knew not to go to communion and didnt. I just sat toward the back and sang along with the liturgy. The liturgy was very similar except they had a larger choir and sang more harmonies than the little UGCC parish. I was feeling very positive and at home til I went up to greet the pastor. I told him I was a Roman Catholic and was familiar with Eastern liturgy from the UGCC parish in town.

Immediately, his face looked angry. In his thick Greek accent yelled three times in my face ā€œUniate, Uniate, Uniate!ā€ and poked me in the chest each time. Then he rolled his eyes and turned and walked away.

I froze for a second and didnā€™t know what to say. People were looking at me so I just turned and left right away. It was awful.

I then told the local UGCC pastor about it and he told me that same thing happened to him when he visited the OCA priest when he first arrived. We both just shook our heads.
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Arthur,

I do sympathise. While I have not had such a treatment, I have heard it all before.

Such things should never occur between ā€œChristians.ā€

Joey
 
AnthonyJ said:
Are you saying the Orthodox priest would allow you to receive communion?
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He implied such (I quoted directly what he said). There is much quiet tolerance of intercommunion away from the urban RO churches of Fairbanks, Juneau and Anchorage. Whether 'tis officially allowed is another matter. I have recieved in some remote parishes, with the pastor knowing I was Catholic. In the late 1980ā€™s and early 1990ā€™s.

I know that said priest was/is OCA, as Bishop Nikolai signed his letter of appointment as pastor, and said letter was posted on the wall, framed, in the church.

But everywhere I go, Slavs love to debate, argue, heatedly discuss, and share their emotions and opinions.

I mentioned this to some Ukrainians who attend my Ruthenian parishā€¦ and they agreeā€¦ Americans donā€™t love to debate like slavs, and donā€™t put their feelings and opinions out in the open the same way, either.
 
Arthur22124 said:
Actually, where I used to live I regularly attended the UGCC church, though I am Latin Catholic. I got to know the pastor and most of the ppl in the small parish. It was a wonderful little family and they were always good to me.

So one day I thought I would see what the Orthodox parish was like. It was much larger. I knew not to go to communion and didnt. I just sat toward the back and sang along with the liturgy. The liturgy was very similar except they had a larger choir and sang more harmonies than the little UGCC parish. I was feeling very positive and at home til I went up to greet the pastor. I told him I was a Roman Catholic and was familiar with Eastern liturgy from the UGCC parish in town.

Immediately, his face looked angry. In his thick Greek accent yelled three times in my face ā€œUniate, Uniate, Uniate!ā€ and poked me in the chest each time. Then he rolled his eyes and turned and walked away.

I froze for a second and didnā€™t know what to say. People were looking at me so I just turned and left right away. It was awful.

I then told the local UGCC pastor about it and he told me that same thing happened to him when he visited the OCA priest when he first arrived. We both just shook our heads.

But I never experienced anything but kindness in the UGCC church.

God Bless All
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In my neck of the woods, Iā€™d say the numbers of Greek/Byzantine Catholic parishes are about equal. When the various Orthodox parishes in the area gather to celebrate the Sunday of Orthodoxy (the parish it is celebrated in changes every year) many Byzantine/Greek Catholics attend.
So if a Greek/Byzantine Catholic parish has an event, like a big dinner or festival, Orthodox attend. We even visit the local Byzantine Catholic Mission once in a while. They are our friends and I have the utmost respect for their priest, who is a great man and teacher. Iā€™m sad to hear you didnā€™t receive the fellowship we are blessed with nowadays between Greek/Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox in my area of the country. Often even when someone falls asleep in the Lord, you may have the Byzantine/Greek Catholic priest(s) and an Orthodox priest or two go to the funeral services. Many people come from families that have family members who are Byzantine/Greek Catholic and family members that are Orthodox. Just to add, inter-communion does not take place, but a great respect for each other and Christian Charity does take place. It is very nice to see the Greek Catholics when they attend the Sunday of Orthodoxy celebration.
 
Arthur22124 said:
Actually, where I used to live I regularly attended the UGCC church, though I am Latin Catholic. I got to know the pastor and most of the ppl in the small parish. It was a wonderful little family and they were always good to me.

So one day I thought I would see what the Orthodox parish was like. It was much larger. I knew not to go to communion and didnt. I just sat toward the back and sang along with the liturgy. The liturgy was very similar except they had a larger choir and sang more harmonies than the little UGCC parish. I was feeling very positive and at home til I went up to greet the pastor. I told him I was a Roman Catholic and was familiar with Eastern liturgy from the UGCC parish in town.

Immediately, his face looked angry. In his thick Greek accent yelled three times in my face ā€œUniate, Uniate, Uniate!ā€ and poked me in the chest each time. Then he rolled his eyes and turned and walked away.

I froze for a second and didnā€™t know what to say. People were looking at me so I just turned and left right away. It was awful.

I then told the local UGCC pastor about it and he told me that same thing happened to him when he visited the OCA priest when he first arrived. We both just shook our heads.

But I never experienced anything but kindness in the UGCC church.

God Bless All
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As I have said, I havenā€™t experienced this myself, but my priest has. I am friends with the UGCC priest in town and the Orthodox priest will not speak to him or even look him in the eye. Itā€™s wierd. So nasty. So sad.
 
I donā€™t understand this because many of the Orthodox priests in my area take to the UGCC priests and the Byzantine Catholic priests all the time. Like I said, I live in a different part of the world where there are about equal numbers of Byzantine Catholics/UGCC and Eastern Orthodox. Iā€™m not arguing with what you say, but Iā€™m saying this is contrary to how things are done in the region I live in.
 
It seems obvious from all these posts that everything depends
on the personalities and perhaps what we may call the ā€œreligious
cultureā€ of the priests and people in question. These displays
of un-charity are both shocking and scandalous and must be
gravely displeasing to Our Lord, Who bade us love one another.
I can only suggest that when hostility is encountered that the
responsible priest or hierarch be made aware of the situation
as gently as may be.It is their duty to deal with such things.

Edmac
 
Edmac said:
It seems obvious from all these posts that everything depends
on the personalities and perhaps what we may call the ā€œreligious
cultureā€ of the priests and people in question. These displays
of un-charity are both shocking and scandalous and must be
gravely displeasing to Our Lord, Who bade us love one another.
I can only suggest that when hostility is encountered that the
responsible priest or hierarch be made aware of the situation
as gently as may be.It is their duty to deal with such things.

Edmac
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Interesting. To my awareness in our local situation it is the Orthodox priest who is the problem. Am I supposed to go to his bishop? Yeah right.
 
Arthur22124 said:
Actually, where I used to live I regularly attended the UGCC church, though I am Latin Catholic. I got to know the pastor and most of the ppl in the small parish. It was a wonderful little family and they were always good to me.

So one day I thought I would see what the Orthodox parish was like. It was much larger. I knew not to go to communion and didnt. I just sat toward the back and sang along with the liturgy. The liturgy was very similar except they had a larger choir and sang more harmonies than the little UGCC parish. I was feeling very positive and at home til I went up to greet the pastor. I told him I was a Roman Catholic and was familiar with Eastern liturgy from the UGCC parish in town.

Immediately, his face looked angry. In his thick Greek accent yelled three times in my face ā€œUniate, Uniate, Uniate!ā€ and poked me in the chest each time. Then he rolled his eyes and turned and walked away.

I froze for a second and didnā€™t know what to say. People were looking at me so I just turned and left right away. It was awful.

I then told the local UGCC pastor about it and he told me that same thing happened to him when he visited the OCA priest when he first arrived. We both just shook our heads.

But I never experienced anything but kindness in the UGCC church.

God Bless All
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I am sorry to hear thatā€¦I have been to more the a half dozen Orthodox churches and never had any problems. I have told the priests I am Catholic and they express the view that our respective churches are sistersā€¦šŸ¤·

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
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