Iceland Bans All Strip Clubs

[Rich_Olszewski]

That last one is completely false. I was born in the 1950s. The average number of kids in my neighborhood? Two – That’s T W O.

I was born in 1941, and my Brooklyn neighborhood stank with kids around the time you were born - postwar babies. Where did your parents live and raise you that there were so few kids back then?

 

[Argh]

I don’t agree with this.

No, it’s not because I have a high respect for the profession. I look at it like prostitution, though. Here in the states, prostitution is illegal. The women get abused by pimps, regularly get STD’s, get raped and murdered, and women are abducted by cartels to be sold into prostitution.

In Australia, where prostitution is legal and regulated, the women work under fair bosses at brothels, the men by law have to be checked for STD’s and the women are not abused or abducted by pimps. They make their wage and live pretty normal lives.

By making it illegal all Iceland is assuring is that the show will be run by organized crime and pimps, just like prostitution is over here. I understand what Iceland is thinking. It thinks that by outlawing stripping, it will be eradicated. It’s a moral gesture, absolutely. Prohibition of alcohol in the United States was a moral gesture also. Was it moral? Absolutely. Did it work? Of course not. When alcohol was prohibited, organized crime took over the operation underground and made quite a bit of money off of it.

I agree with the intent behind the law. Respectable women shouldn’t be objectified in such a way. I don’t agree with assuring that the two industries become the lifeblood of dangerous pimps and organized crime, though. That’s more immoral than the industry it’s self.

I’m jumping ahead quite a bit, so maybe this has been addressed, but I remember a study in Nevada (only state in the Union to legalize prostitution in some counties) that showed that crimes against women didn’t decrease in areas where prostitution was legal. I wish I could remember the name of the study. It was on NPR when they were talking about sex trafficking and the link a while ago.

And I seem to remember a dharma teaching against selling one’s body/immoral sexual conduct (?).

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I used that as an example of a symptom of a larger issue that ***you ***raised…Which I went into…In great detail. Way to cherry-pick my post and obfuscate in order not to have to actually gasp deal with it honestly.

The topic had nothing to do with abortion. I saw no reason to engage in that topic on a thread talking about strippers.

If that’s all it was, why is there also a huge push for other liberal agendas such as the idea of “civil rights” for gays to “marry”???

There are those who support gay marriage. I don’t. The President doesn’t. People can try to get what they want.

I was commenting on the “liberal playbook” you mentioned. Reading comprehension is obviously overrated here, eh, Mr. O?

Saw no reason to even engage your obviously prejudicial soapbox remarks. You can believe what you want.

You are the one who has willfully blinded yourself to a very obvious truth.

I just love it when people like you declare something as The Truth and expect everyone to accept it.

No, that’s a slanderous liberal spin on a conservative ideal.

No, it’s a remark that has been made by a number of people, usually in a humorous context. It didn’t originate with liberals.

That’s how liberals describe it because the natural benefit and goodness of a stay-at-home mom

Your impression of it as a benefit.

Always for liberals it’s about how to make the other side look bad while trying to make themselves look good.

Guess you don’t read too many posts on this Forum, where liberals are always being bashed and called all sorts of names by the rightwingers here. One poster said that all liberal women are in favor of killing babies before they’re born and hate children. Odd thing to say about my actively pro-life liberal wife with whom I had five children, but they have a right to spew their venom, I suppose. Just don’t come to me and say that we liberals are all about making the conservatives look bad. They do an admirable job of slandering people themselves.

 

[Adeodatus]

Whether or not it’s a victory won by feminism, it isn’t a bad thing to eliminate venues where women are leered at and looked on solely as sexual objects.

I’m going to take a moment and drink in this rare moment in which you and I are in agreement on a political matter. It’s quite nice, brother.

 

[Adeodatus]

The degradation of women isn’t in the liberal playbook either.

OK… that didn’t last long.

 

[AJTheMan]

I’m jumping ahead quite a bit, so maybe this has been addressed, but I remember a study in Nevada (only state in the Union to legalize prostitution in some counties) that showed that crimes against women didn’t decrease in areas where prostitution was legal. I wish I could remember the name of the study. It was on NPR when they were talking about sex trafficking and the link a while ago.

And I seem to remember a dharma teaching against selling one’s body/immoral sexual conduct (?).

Well, not only does prostitution most likely go against the third precept it also goes against the teachings of moderation of sensuality. Moderation is key. Prostitution is not about moderation.

 

[Dionysus]

Guess you don’t read too many posts on this Forum, where liberals are always being bashed and called all sorts of names by the rightwingers here. One poster said that all liberal women are in favor of killing babies before they’re born and hate children. Odd thing to say about my actively pro-life liberal wife with whom I had five children, but they have a right to spew their venom, I suppose. Just don’t come to me and say that we liberals are all about making the conservatives look bad. They do an admirable job of slandering people themselves.

You must admit, though, that you and your wife are anomalies.

Of course, this issue, as well as with prostitution and pornography, seems to cause a schism among liberals, particularly feminists. There are of course the ones who support prohibitions of things like this because they objectify women (I think Gloria Steinem may be among them), and then there are the “sex-positive” feminists, who pretty much oppose all restrictions onsexual behavior of any kind, except rape.

There are, of course, no sex-positive conservatives. They’re just a bunch of prudes.

 

[csuliman]

I disagree with this decision. Although I agree that pornography (which strip clubs are a form of) is bad, I do think that this ban is a case of the government interfering too much on the civil liberties of its citizens.

The fact is that many individuals do not subscribe to the idea that pornography is bad and this ban constitutes a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to work in the industry.

 

[Just_Lurking]

The fact is that many individuals do not subscribe to the idea that pornography is bad and this ban constitutes a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to work in the industry.

By this logic, the minimum wage law is a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to work at less than minimum wage. And the law against selling one’s kidney is a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to make a quick buck for their body part.

The approach in Iceland is similar - for them, the problem is not that stripping is immoral. The problem is that the stripping industry is exploitative of the strippers, just as working below minimum wage or having to sell your kidney to make ends meet is exploitative.

 

[csuliman]

By this logic, the minimum wage law is a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to work at less than minimum wage. And the law against selling one’s kidney is a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to make a quick buck for their body part.

The approach in Iceland is similar - for them, the problem is not that stripping is immoral. The problem is that the stripping industry is exploitative of the strippers, just as working below minimum wage or having to sell your kidney to make ends meet is exploitative.

This is a good point and I will concede that my argument can be taken to the extreme.

As for the example of the minimum wage law, I tend to be against these laws exactly for the reason that the evidence indicates that they punish the most vulnerable workers (who will be the ones facing the most job losses). I think that my concern over the strip club ban is based on similar grounds. If there are strip club owners exploiting women/abusing them then would it not make sense to punish them for the exploitation rather than shut down all strip clubs.

This is why I tend to be against such things as tobacco, alcohol, drug and prostitution prohibitions. If a rational adult wants to make a decision to smoke tobacco, or drink alcohol, or smoke weed, or eat pork, or be a prostitute or use a prostitute, then the government should not interfere. If we are concerned about children using drugs, then this is no reason to ban it for all adults, etc. Of course we can say that drugs and prostitution are immoral, the Jewish people will say that we should include pork and the Muslims will say that we should include pork and alcohol. Each of these groups will have their own moral judgement, but the government should stay clear from this decision.

 

[sidbrown]

Censorship is controversial. It might not be a bad idea to censor some shows, but then should we also shut down the Catholic colleges and universities and jail the Catholic administrators or teachers who require some students to participate in filthy plays such as the V monologues? Should we jail authors such as the Catholic priest Father Greeley who writes these pot boiler type of novels?

 

[edwest2]

I disagree with this decision. Although I agree that pornography (which strip clubs are a form of) is bad, I do think that this ban is a case of the government interfering too much on the civil liberties of its citizens.

The fact is that many individuals do not subscribe to the idea that pornography is bad and this ban constitutes a violation of the civil liberties of those who want to work in the industry.

I don’t think a healthy, functional society should ever allow such degradation… There are no industries. There are no factories belching smoke. Degrading and undignified behavior should never be promoted in a civil society.

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

 

[edwest2]

This is a good point and I will concede that my argument can be taken to the extreme.

As for the example of the minimum wage law, I tend to be against these laws exactly for the reason that the evidence indicates that they punish the most vulnerable workers (who will be the ones facing the most job losses). I think that my concern over the strip club ban is based on similar grounds. If there are strip club owners exploiting women/abusing them then would it not make sense to punish them for the exploitation rather than shut down all strip clubs.

This is why I tend to be against such things as tobacco, alcohol, drug and prostitution prohibitions. If a rational adult wants to make a decision to smoke tobacco, or drink alcohol, or smoke weed, or eat pork, or be a prostitute or use a prostitute, then the government should not interfere. If we are concerned about children using drugs, then this is no reason to ban it for all adults, etc. Of course we can say that drugs and prostitution are immoral, the Jewish people will say that we should include pork and the Muslims will say that we should include pork and alcohol. Each of these groups will have their own moral judgement, but the government should stay clear from this decision.

What is rational about debasing people? The government includes people who understand that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should not include dysfunctional uses for your body and the bodies of others.

There is nothing rational or consistent about teaching your kids to act like kids and then, after they go to bed, turning on the porn. Whatever I was taught as a child, by necessity still applies to me as an adult.

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

 

[edwest2]

Censorship is controversial. It might not be a bad idea to censor some shows, but then should we also shut down the Catholic colleges and universities and jail the Catholic administrators or teachers who require some students to participate in filthy plays such as the V monologues? Should we jail authors such as the Catholic priest Father Greeley who writes these pot boiler type of novels?

Censorship is a good thing. There are standards and they should be applied. I am an author and I’m not here to tell people what to do but when everything is permitted then evil has its chance. How much great art and literature has been produced by the porn industry? Can I buy Shakespeare at the Adult Bookstore?

People should realize that things have gone too far.

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

 

[sidbrown]

Censorship is a good thing. There are standards and they should be applied. I am an author and I’m not here to tell people what to do but when everything is permitted then evil has its chance. How much great art and literature has been produced by the porn industry? Can I buy Shakespeare at the Adult Bookstore?

People should realize that things have gone too far.

God bless,
Ed

---

Choose Jesus.

I would still say that censorship is controversial as is seen from the filthy plays that some students are required to participate in at Catholic colleges.

 

[Holly3278]

Awesome! Now if only the United States and other nations would ban all strip clubs as well!

 

[csuliman]

What is rational about debasing people? The government includes people who understand that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should not include dysfunctional uses for your body and the bodies of others.

There is nothing rational or consistent about teaching your kids to act like kids and then, after they go to bed, turning on the porn. Whatever I was taught as a child, by necessity still applies to me as an adult.

God bless,
Ed

Your implying that strippers are debasing themselves. This is not a judgement made by everyone, in fact there are many people who do not think this is an immoral activity at all. It is our Christian morality that states that this is so. As a Catholic I subscribe to this morality.

However, I would note that Muslims think that by drinking alcohol an individual debases themselves. Should this be a reason for the government to ban all alcohol sales? Is it right that us Iraqi Christians have to live by the rules of the majority muslims and face persecution if we sell alcohol?

The government should not restrict the liberty of men and women to become strippers due to religious reasons. The alternative reason, that women might face abuse in these positions, seems to me to be an argument for regulating and protecting strippers rather than ban the activity outright.

 

[Adeodatus]

However, I would note that Muslims think that by drinking alcohol an individual debases themselves. Should this be a reason for the government to ban all alcohol sales?

No because the Muslims are wrong about this.

The difference in truth value is often pretty important.

 

[Dwyer]

Your implying that strippers are debasing themselves. This is not a judgement made by everyone, in fact there are many people who do not think this is an immoral activity at all. It is our Christian morality that states that this is so. As a Catholic I subscribe to this morality.

However, I would note that Muslims think that by drinking alcohol an individual debases themselves. Should this be a reason for the government to ban all alcohol sales? Is it right that us Iraqi Christians have to live by the rules of the majority muslims and face persecution if we sell alcohol?

The government should not restrict the liberty of men and women to become strippers due to religious reasons. The alternative reason, that women might face abuse in these positions, seems to me to be an argument for regulating and protecting strippers rather than ban the activity outright.

Iceland bans the commercial exploitation of women’s bodies, and all of a sudden they’re a bunch of Muslims.

Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir, the politician who first proposed the ban, firmly told the national press on Wednesday: “It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold.”

Even in countries where prostitution is legal (I think the U.K. and Germany), there has been an increase in human trafficking in these countries into the sex industries, and various mafia groups are involved, and women from Eastern Europe are essentially enslaved and their families, if they are lucky, pay ransom money to their pimps and they are allowed to return home.

Prostitution and people-trafficking is now the third most lucrative black-market trade in the world after gun-running and drugs-smuggling. It is being driven by growing demand for prostitutes in the UK, with websites promoting sex flourishing and local newspapers carrying advertisements for prostitutes. Gangs often share the income from internet “bookings”.

Ministers also said children were being trafficked into Britain to grow cannabis or to join street crime gangs. There are plans for a further crackdown on fraudsters who smuggle children to make bogus welfare claims.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/18000-women-and-children-trafficked-into-uk-sex-trade-859106.html

There is always a black market for whatever sort of vice that is out there, but legalizing every sort of activity because somebody may get hurt or suffer some sort of pain because of the law only makes a mockery of law.

 

[Seamus_L]

Strip clubs are harmful to all involved. The Icelandic government did the right thing.