Iconostasis are optional?

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ConstantineTG

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I was browsing through photos yesterday and saw some Byzantine-Rite parishes without Iconostasis. I always thought it was a staple. I would understand if they were operating out of a shared parish building with another Catholic Rite (usually Roman) but they are not. One of the parishes I guess I can understand because it was small, and there wasn’t a sufficient space for the Iconostasis. By my estimate it would be impossible to put any kind of door that would swing inwards and not hit the Holy Table. But the other one I saw is a rather large parish, but they do not have an Iconostatis. Why is that?
 
ConstantineTG said:
I was browsing through photos yesterday and saw some Byzantine-Rite parishes without Iconostasis. I always thought it was a staple. I would understand if they were operating out of a shared parish building with another Catholic Rite (usually Roman) but they are not. One of the parishes I guess I can understand because it was small, and there wasn’t a sufficient space for the Iconostasis. By my estimate it would be impossible to put any kind of door that would swing inwards and not hit the Holy Table. But the other one I saw is a rather large parish, but they do not have an Iconostatis. Why is that?
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This is one of the lingering latinizations we are still trying to get over.
 
I see. The large parish is actually in my opinion the most beautiful parish in the Eparchy, the outside and the inside was done very well. What is lacking is the Iconostasis.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I was browsing through photos yesterday and saw some Byzantine-Rite parishes without Iconostasis. I always thought it was a staple. I would understand if they were operating out of a shared parish building with another Catholic Rite (usually Roman) but they are not. One of the parishes I guess I can understand because it was small, and there wasn’t a sufficient space for the Iconostasis. By my estimate it would be impossible to put any kind of door that would swing inwards and not hit the Holy Table. But the other one I saw is a rather large parish, but they do not have an Iconostatis. Why is that?
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**Byzantine (Ruthenian) Particular Law (USA), 1999: **
**
Canon 707 **§5. The Divine Liturgy should normally be celebrated in a properly constructed church. The altar where the Liturgy is to be celebrated should have its own iconostas. In a case of true necessity, the Divine Liturgy can be celebrated outside a church building.
 
It makes me so sad to see a Byzantine church without an icon screen. The priests then usually fail to do proper entrances- because they make no sense without the screen.

The proto-cathedral in Sherman Oaks and the Romanian cathedral in Canton are stunning examples of icon screens- a true screen, but transparent enough that the people can see enough to participate.

In our mini-mission, my husband made an icon screen that is easy to take down if need be- we commissioned large Theotokos and Pantocrator icons and put them on wooden boxes- very bad description- I’ll find some pictures.

In my opinion, there is no excuse NOT to have some kind of icon screen. In the very beginning, we used two beautiful banners that stood in the place of the main icons to simulate royal doors.

My husband receives a stipend at the large mission and nothing from the small one. We purchased the icons with the money saved from the generosity of people- free-will stipends for marriages, baptisms and house blessings.

I would ask lay people to respectfully encourage their priests to implement some kind of icon screen- even if it is just banners.
 
Vico said:
**Byzantine (Ruthenian) Particular Law (USA), 1999: **
**
Canon 707 **§5. The Divine Liturgy should normally be celebrated in a properly constructed church. The altar where the Liturgy is to be celebrated should have its own iconostas. In a case of true necessity, the Divine Liturgy can be celebrated outside a church building.
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Thanks. But the one I’m referring to is UGCC. Sorry I didn’t make that clear from the beginning.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Thanks. But the one I’m referring to is UGCC. Sorry I didn’t make that clear from the beginning.
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UGCC particular law (2006 translation):

Can. 116 (CCEO c. 886) An iconostas is to be erected in every church, according to liturgical norms.

archeparchy.ca/documents/Particular_Law_Canons.pdf

CCEO Canon 886
The practice of displaying sacred icons or images in churches for the veneration of the Christian faithful is to remain in force in the manner and order established by the particular law of each Church sui iuris.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_POM.HTM
 
priestswife said:
It makes me so sad to see a Byzantine church without an icon screen. The priests then usually fail to do proper entrances- because they make no sense without the screen.

The proto-cathedral in Sherman Oaks and the Romanian cathedral in Canton are stunning examples of icon screens- a true screen, but transparent enough that the people can see enough to participate.

In our mini-mission, my husband made an icon screen that is easy to take down if need be- we commissioned large Theotokos and Pantocrator icons and put them on wooden boxes- very bad description- I’ll find some pictures.

In my opinion, there is no excuse NOT to have some kind of icon screen. In the very beginning, we used two beautiful banners that stood in the place of the main icons to simulate royal doors.

My husband receives a stipend at the large mission and nothing from the small one. We purchased the icons with the money saved from the generosity of people- free-will stipends for marriages, baptisms and house blessings.

I would ask lay people to respectfully encourage their priests to implement some kind of icon screen- even if it is just banners.
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Do you happen to have any pictures or perhaps a website to those missions? I’m interested in seeing more Eastern Catholic parishes and see how they compare to Orthodox ones.
 
dcointin said:
Do you happen to have any pictures or perhaps a website to those missions? I’m interested in seeing more Eastern Catholic parishes and see how they compare to Orthodox ones.
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I’ve seen photos of Antiochian Orthodox missions to the Philippines
 
The iconostasis is a development, so technically it is not absolutely necessary.

But I agree it is to be preferred. I would also like to see curtain come back, many parishes will have the icon screen and neglect to install a curtain. In fact, it should be acceptable for a parish or mission without a screen to employ a sufficient curtain in some arrangement.

But of course, we do love our icons, particularly icons of the Lord and the Holy Theotokos … and we like them large … and of course we need something substantial to hold them …
 
The Ruthenian rubrics call for, at a flat minimum, The Theotokion and Icon of Christ, since those are mentioned in the rubrics for the prothesis. (Priest’s Liturgikon, p.16)

Older editions required also the icons of the patron of the Parish/mission, and either St Nicholas or St. John the Forerunner.

It’s fairly common to use JUST the icons on stands within the Eparchy of Van Nuys neé Protection of the Mother of God Eparchy of Phoenix.

A bit of history

The Ruthenians had an issue with Bishop Nicholas Elko (then the Exarch), the sole US Ruthenian jurisdiction of the time) ordering the removal of the Iconostasi so that the people could see what was happening at the Altar. Some parishes rejected the order. Others ripped them out. One put one in… a beautiful bit of gold-toned filigree ironwork, with the icons of Christ and the Theotokos still outside the bounds of the iconostas, where they’d been originally hung (and still hang to this day). A few simply moved the Icons to stands, and removed the fixed Iconostas.

This was all before Vatican II, mind you.

Various issues resulted in his removal by Rome in 1967. He later was assigned as Auxiliary Archbishop of Cincinnati, and was apparently much loved, and very happy as a Roman Rite bishop.

So many of the parishes in the west were built under the Authority of Bishop Elko. It’s been a real issue…
 
I haven’t visited the other parishes but to the one I go to has an Iconostasis. Although it is “transparent” in a way that its not a wall but more like a fence with the space in between the Icons are gaps. I was just surprised the other parish is a rather large parish and built not too long ago and it does look like a lot of money went into building that parish, but it does not have an Iconostasis. I love the Iconostasis, I wish even RC parishes would have them. And no, altar rails do not compare.
 
Hesychios said:
I would also like to see curtain come back
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I would love to see more Roman Rite parishes with the ciborium magnum and curtains. I’m on our parish’s building committee, designing our new church, and I’m pushing for an oriented transept basilica floorplan with a ciborium magnum and, yes, curtains.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I haven’t visited the other parishes but to the one I go to has an Iconostasis. Although it is “transparent” in a way that its not a wall but more like a fence with the space in between the Icons are gaps. I was just surprised the other parish is a rather large parish and built not too long ago and it does look like a lot of money went into building that parish, but it does not have an Iconostasis. I love the Iconostasis, I wish even RC parishes would have them. And no, altar rails do not compare.
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If it’s a UGCC parish, odds are good they have one under construction.

Our “new” iconostas (several years old, now), which replaced the gold-tone filigree ironwork, took well over a year from commissioning to installation… and 2 past that to fill it out with the requisite icons.

The work is generally expensive.
 
There is a mission here in citrus heights. The priest puts up the master icons and I think he tries his best even though the liturgy is celebrated in a retreat center. In instances like that, I can understand why it would not be feasible to have a larger iconostasis.
 
Here is a selection that shows a variety of styles (Byzantine Catholic Church) in the USA and in Slovak Greek Catholic Church, Slovakia.

Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic (San Diego, CA):
holyange.ipower.com/Church%20Icons/ChurchIcons.html

Saints Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church (Girard, PA):
eriecountybyzantines.org/2009cminterior.html

(Byzantine) Greek Catholic Church (Mizhhirja, Ukraine) - below:
http://www.mgce.uz.ua/albums/996/IMG_0008.jpg
Holy Cross Slovak Greek Catholic Church, Brataslava, Slovakia - below:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
All Saints Byzantine Catholic Church, North Fort Myers, FL - below:
http://www.allsaintsbyzantinechurch.com/Site/Welcome_files/shapeimage_3.jpg
 
Aramis said:
If it’s a UGCC parish, odds are good they have one under construction.
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I hope so, but the parish is 28 years old. I find it odd they rebuilt the parish (the parish itself is older but the current building wad constructed 1982) but not put an Iconostasis back then.
Aramis said:
Our “new” iconostas (several years old, now), which replaced the gold-tone filigree ironwork, took well over a year from commissioning to installation… and 2 past that to fill it out with the requisite icons.

The work is generally expensive.
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That is for sure. I don’t know if the UGCC here has an iconographer, but I heard one of the Orthodox parishes has one. Or they can always import. But I guess money may be an issue.
 
stephraim said:
I would love to see more Roman Rite parishes with the ciborium magnum and curtains. I’m on our parish’s building committee, designing our new church, and I’m pushing for an oriented transept basilica floorplan with a ciborium magnum and, yes, curtains.
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What is that and how are the curtains used?
 
Who the hell cares, religion is for idiots and superstitious nuts anyways.
 
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