I'd like to ask one more time (political opposition to gay marriage rights)

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It doesn’t shake the foundations of society if two people who love each other live together. What they do in the privacy of their own home whether it be playing ping pong or whatever, does not affect me and therefore does not affect society.
False. At the most basic, believers in real marriage will be coerced into endorsing lies. We’ve already seen people fired from their jobs, had their academic careers threatened, and in one case had to flee the country because they refused to pretend that homosexual marriages are real. There is nothing live-and-let-live about homosexual “marriage” and I have listened to people gleefully anticipating the punishments to be handed out to people who refuse to kneel before this pagan idol.
At least the new pope is looking into the subject with love rather than hate.
He is on record as calling same-sex “marriage” a “machination of the Father of lies”. He is correct.
 
Now that gay marriage rights are established in the majority of US states, with no hope of reversal, I’d like to ask this question one more time…

Where in Catholic teaching is found the MANDATE that Catholics must oppose gay marriage rights not just personally, but also POLITICALLY?
  1. Is it anywhere in the Bible? (It is not)
  2. Is it “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons” written by Benedict in 2003 before he became pope?
  3. If #2 is yes, is that document really part of the Magisterium? Is it actually and expressly required for Catholics to follow this document? (We know that Ratzinger was and still is a polarizing figure in the Vatican.)
  4. If #3 is yes, can’t it be simply repealed, or deemphasized, by Francis?
Yes it is “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons”
In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application.** In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.**
Yes, it is Catholic teaching.

Why should it be repealed or de-emphasized? It seems very logical and “Catholic” to me.
 
I don’t think I understand what you mean by any society not founded on the ‘Truth’ was somehow lacking. I take it you mean Christian societies are founded on the Truth? So, in your eyes any society or civilisation founded on other religions are/were lacking in comparison to Christian ones?
In a word, yes, and I have no trouble nor feel no shame in stating so bluntly. Any society not founded on God will ultimately pale in comparison to one which is.
 
At least the new pope is looking into the subject with love rather than hate.
Does opposition to redefining marriage to include any arrangement that is not one man and one woman hateful?

Peace

Tim
 
Now that gay marriage rights are established in the majority of US states, with no hope of reversal, I’d like to ask this question one more time…

Where in Catholic teaching is found the MANDATE that Catholics must oppose gay marriage rights not just personally, but also POLITICALLY?
  1. Is it anywhere in the Bible? (It is not)
  2. Is it “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons” written by Benedict in 2003 before he became pope?
  3. If #2 is yes, is that document really part of the Magisterium? Is it actually and expressly required for Catholics to follow this document? (We know that Ratzinger was and still is a polarizing figure in the Vatican.)
  4. If #3 is yes, can’t it be simply repealed, or deemphasized, by Francis?
Why does it need to be a Biblical? As citizens of this country don’t we have a right to work for, lobby for the type of society we believe is best? If we believe that same sex marriage is damaging to our society as a whole --why are we not allowed to lobby/advocate for that position? We live in a country where we have political rights to lobby for they type of society we wish to live in. It is crazy to argue or suggest that we need a Biblical mandate to do so. That’s not where our political rights come from.

In this country we used to make laws that tried to balance individual rights with the good of society and at times individual rights were limited based on what was in the interest of society as a whole–today we are moving ever more quickly in the other direction elevating individual rights over what is best for society as a whole. We are allowing individual rights to triumph even where they will damage/weaken society as a whole.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
It doesn’t shake the foundations of society if two people who love each other live together. What they do in the privacy of their own home whether it be playing ping pong or whatever, does not affect me and therefore does not affect society. It is promiscuity, soliciting etc that causes the harm to society and that goes for couples of any sex. Gay couples are part of my society and are friends, they play an active, beneficial part in it…church included in some cases. I would have no desire to deprive them of the love and comfort of living with another human being like I am lucky enough to have with my husband. I have no idea if they are sexually active or not…any more than anyone knows about me! I’m not interested and see no evil.
At least the new pope is looking into the subject with love rather than hate.
We’re not just talking about two people living together–we’re talking about marriage and there is a difference. I would direct you to the article “What is Marriage” in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy [Vol. 34 No. 1] pages 246-247 for a discussion of marriage and society and the two competing views of marriage.

Here is a quote from there conclusion:

"A thought experiment might crystallize our central argument. Almost every culture in every time and place has had some institution that resembles what we know as marriage. But imagine that human beings reproduced asexually and that human offspring were self-sufficient. In that case, would any culture have developed an institution anything like marriage? It seems clear that the answer is no.

"And our view explains why not. If human beings reproduced asexually, the organic bodily unions–and thus comprehensive interpersonal union–would be impossible, no kind of union would have any special relationship to bearing and rearing children, and the norms that these two realities require would be at best optional features of any relationship. Thus, the essential features of marriage would be missing; there would be no human need that only marriage could fill.

The insight that pair bonds make little sense, and uniquely answer no human need, apart from reproductive-type union merely underscores the conclusions for which we have argued: Marriage is the kind of union that is shaped by its comprehensiveness and fulfilled by procreation and child-rearing. Only this can account for its essential features, which make less sense in other relationships. Because marriage uniquely meets essential needs in such a structured way, it should be regulated for the common good, which can be understood apart from specifically religious arguments. And the needs of those who cannot prudently or do not marry(even due to naturally occurring factors), and whose relationships are thus justifiably regarded as different in kind, can be met in other ways.

“So the view laid out in this Article is not simply the most favorable or least damaging trade-off between the good of a few adults, and that of children and other adults. Nor are there ‘mere arguments’ on the one hand squaring off against people’s ‘concrete needs’ on the other. We reject both of these dichotomies. Marriage understood as the conjugal union of husband and wife really serves the good of children, the good of spouses, and the common good of society. And when the arguments against this view fail, the arguments for it succeed, and the arguments against its alternative are decisive, we take this as evidence that it serves the common good. For reason is not just a debater’s tool for idly refracting arguments into premises, but a lens for bringing into focus the features of human flourishing.”

Please take the time to read the whole article.

Our society and all of us as members of it have been affected by abortion, contraception, no fault divorce–and our society and our children are the poorer for them. We should not kid ourselves–we will also be affected by this.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
In a word, yes, and I have no trouble nor feel no shame in stating so bluntly. Any society not founded on God will ultimately pale in comparison to one which is.
So all the civilisations throughout history, (on whose discoveries, philosophies and experiences, our own Western civilisation was built and developed,) count for nothing - as they weren’t Christian? What about the rest of the non- Christian world today? Have you visited or read about the huge mix of cultures in India for instance? They are founded on God or Gods - just not in the way you have chosen! Their societies are rich and are not ‘paling’ in comparison to ours. In Kerala for instance, Hindus, Muslims and Christians live side by side. A lot of people are poor - but only in monetary terms. There is 100% literacy for their kids today. China is on the up…have you kept abreast of how China is doing these days? In the future our society may just be looking a bit pale beside that of China…
 
Why does it need to be a Biblical? As citizens of this country don’t we have a right to work for, lobby for the type of society we believe is best? If we believe that same sex marriage is damaging to our society as a whole --why are we not allowed to lobby/advocate for that position? We live in a country where we have political rights to lobby for they type of society we wish to live in. It is crazy to argue or suggest that we need a Biblical mandate to do so. That’s not where our political rights come from.

In this country we used to make laws that tried to balance individual rights with the good of society and at times individual rights were limited based on what was in the interest of society as a whole–today we are moving ever more quickly in the other direction elevating individual rights over what is best for society as a whole. We are allowing individual rights to triumph even where they will damage/weaken society as a whole.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
Where do political rights come from?

adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Peace,
Ed
 
" Thus, the essential features of marriage would be missing; there would be no human need that only marriage could fill.

The insight that pair bonds make little sense, and uniquely answer no human need, apart from reproductive-type union merely underscores the conclusions for which we have argued…

And the needs of those who cannot prudently or do not marry(even due to naturally occurring factors), and whose relationships are thus justifiably regarded as different in kind, can be met in other ways.

Our society and all of us as members of it have been affected by abortion, contraception, no fault divorce–and our society and our children are the poorer for them. We should not kid ourselves–we will also be affected by this.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
I have just picked out these points…
the implication that there would be no human need for marriage other than reproduction - I can’t agree with that! People who don’t have children are still given the right to be married…there is more to marriage than having to have children. (Or is childlessness a valid reason for divorce - I think impotence is? In which case, one party suffers).
The next point is a bit vague…I take it it is not allowing for homosexuals to live together!! In not sure what it means by their needs being met in other ways. Non sexual I suppose.

It never ceases to amaze me how much time and energy and how many words get written to pontificate on this subject. I just don’t get it. Why oh why can’t ANY couple just be allowed to cement their relationship publicly ( if they want) and be allowed to live together in peace? They are not causing abortions and they don’t even have to consider contraception and their private life is no more their neighbour’s business than yours or mine are.
My homosexual friends and acquaintances are not in the least causing any upset in my society.
Marriage gives a couple an extra strength, a bond to help them through times when they might want to run out and give up. It’s the same for Gay couples. Surely it’s better that they should commit to each other and work at their relationship. Call it a partnership if there’s a problem with the word.
 
False. At the most basic, believers in real marriage will be coerced into endorsing lies. We’ve already seen people fired from their jobs, had their academic careers threatened, and in one case had to flee the country because they refused to pretend that homosexual marriages are real. There is nothing live-and-let-live about homosexual “marriage” and I have listened to people gleefully anticipating the punishments to be handed out to people who refuse to kneel before this pagan idol.

He is on record as calling same-sex “marriage” a “machination of the Father of lies”. He is correct.
Flee from the country?
 
Why oh why can’t ANY couple just be allowed to cement their relationship publicly ( if they want) and be allowed to live together in peace?
Kelt, why does it have to be a “couple”? What is it about the number two that makes it a marriage-like relationship that should be affirmed publicly?
 
I have just picked out these points…
the implication that there would be no human need for marriage other than reproduction - I can’t agree with that! People who don’t have children are still given the right to be married…there is more to marriage than having to have children. (Or is childlessness a valid reason for divorce - I think impotence is? In which case, one party suffers).
The next point is a bit vague…I take it it is not allowing for homosexuals to live together!! In not sure what it means by their needs being met in other ways. Non sexual I suppose.

It never ceases to amaze me how much time and energy and how many words get written to pontificate on this subject. I just don’t get it. Why oh why can’t ANY couple just be allowed to cement their relationship publicly ( if they want) and be allowed to live together in peace? They are not causing abortions and they don’t even have to consider contraception and their private life is no more their neighbour’s business than yours or mine are.
My homosexual friends and acquaintances are not in the least causing any upset in my society.
Marriage gives a couple an extra strength, a bond to help them through times when they might want to run out and give up. It’s the same for Gay couples. Surely it’s better that they should commit to each other and work at their relationship. Call it a partnership if there’s a problem with the word.
Can you help me understand the following?

Why was same-sex marriage on the ballot at one time? It was voted down twice in California.

Why have mostly judges and politicians ignored the will of the people?

Why have gay lobbying groups spent millions of dollars?

Why has one gay group and a prominent celebrity publicly state that it should be called marriage, and in the other case, that “civil unions” or partnerships reduces gay partners/ couples to second-class citizens?

Why are little kids in public schools being given storybooks that promote gay marriage, like King and King? Kids are not physically or emotionally mature enough to fully understand such things.

Best,
Ed
 
Marriage, real male+female “marriage” of two becoming one, not one plus another one, is pre-Christian, pre-Judaic, and is the universal sacrament public bonding of a man and woman that protects the vulnerable female and the child she bears. The whole “king” system demanded by the Jews, the foreign system of “men first” was advised against by God, and is replayed here in the ultimate male privilege of female-free “marriage.” The genetic absurdity of male+male or female+female “marriage” is as bogus as a transvestite ripping off women’s culture to ape females in this WOMEN & CHILDREN LAST culture of death! The good part of this bad situation is that it was ALL prophesied: as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. This is the profane marriage of the latter days that was, in Noah’s time, as violent as gay “marriage” today with astronomical rates of violence between homosexuals.

WOMEN & CHILDREN LAST! The Democrats blocked special “hate crime” protection for pregnant females as that now accorded to homosexuals who statistically “hate” each other as regards rates of violence.

WOMEN & CHILDREN LAST! Homosexuals are one of the richest demographics in the world because they can’t make expensive babies.

WOMEN & CHILDREN LAST! The only homosexual marriage in history was that of Nero marrying his boy-servant who looked like the wife he kicked to death. What, pray tell, is the precedent for protecting, hallowing, and encouraging the sterile bond of non-anatomically-correct genital manipulation that is homosexuality? What good is it for society at large to create this special protected class of rich, privileged homosexuals and ignore the most at-risk among us, moms and babies?

WOMEN & CHILDREN LAST, the real War on Women, is the final delinking of men and women; parents and their living offspring now scraped out to rising breast cancer rates per Dr. Joel Brind and his abortionbreastcancer.com/ meta-stats. This is Barbie & Barbie, and Ken & Ken’s ARCHITECTURAL DIGEST Dream House built over dead babies’ bodies. And it was all prophesied.

FEMALE+MALE MARRIAGE IS GOD’S DIVINE AND TIMELESS INTEGRATION PLAN OF PEACE THAT IS THE FIRST AND WILL BE THE LAST SACRAMENT WHEN CHRIST RETURNS FOR HIS BRIDE THE CHURCH.

Know what happens under “WOMEN & CHILDREN LAST”?

WAR!
 
Flee from the country?
Yes. Lisa Miller had one of those same-sex whatchamacallits. Lisa had a daughter through in-vitro fertilization. Lisa converted to Christianity and naturally rejected her “marriage”. The courts in a fit of insanity awarded custody to her creepy ex-“spouse” who had absolutely no biological connection to the daughter. So Lisa fled with Isabella out of the country somewhere where there is no extradition.

Now of course people whine that Lisa is a criminal, but common sense tells us that she is a criminal in the sense that someone harboring a slave in defiance of the Fugitive Slave Act is a criminal.

There is nothing live-and-let-live about homosexual “marriage”. That’s because homosexuality is a form of idolatry, the idol being self. The god of Self does not like to be told “no” and when it has enough power to enforce its will, will not take “no” for an answer.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time and energy and how many words get written to pontificate on this subject. I just don’t get it.
Pot meet kettle. As long as people write falsehoods based on incoherent relativistic platitudes, we’ll make the time to write the Truth.
 
I have just picked out these points…
the implication that there would be no human need for marriage other than reproduction - I can’t agree with that! People who don’t have children are still given the right to be married…there is more to marriage than having to have children. (Or is childlessness a valid reason for divorce - I think impotence is? In which case, one party suffers).
The next point is a bit vague…I take it it is not allowing for homosexuals to live together!! In not sure what it means by their needs being met in other ways. Non sexual I suppose.

It never ceases to amaze me how much time and energy and how many words get written to pontificate on this subject. I just don’t get it.** Why oh why can’t ANY couple just be allowed to cement their relationship publicly **( if they want) and be allowed to live together in peace? They are not causing abortions and they don’t even have to consider contraception and their private life is no more their neighbour’s business than yours or mine are.
My homosexual friends and acquaintances are not in the least causing any upset in my society.
Marriage gives a couple an extra strength, a bond to help them through times when they might want to run out and give up. It’s the same for Gay couples. Surely it’s better that they should commit to each other and work at their relationship. Call it a partnership if there’s a problem with the word.
Because if its man and man or woman and woman its morally unacceptable and an abomination in the eyes of God.
 
"ProdglArchitect:
To be frank, it’s not in the Bible because it shouldn’t be an issue, it should be plainly clear to -EVERYONE ON THE FREAKING PLANET- that marriage can only exist between a man and a woman. Even the friggin Greeks, who freely engaged in all manner of sexual immorality including homosexuality and pedophilia, recognized that marriage was special and set apart from all other forms of relationship. If our society has become so blind as to not even be able to recognize that basic a truth,we’re in big trouble.
No, it’s not that clear. The secular world does not understand why gay relationships cannot be held up as equal to straight relationships. It is scientifically normal for some humans to be gay, and gay people are capable of loving, committed relationships and raising families. So the secular world would see it as a positive thing to legally recognize gay marriages.
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PietroPaolo:
No hope of reversal? You sound like white southerners before MLK or slave owners before the Civil War or the British before the Revolution, etc. etc etc.

You’d be surprised what can be done. Our culture seems to either be heading for a re-evangelization (which will bring with it an end to SSM) or to a complete collapse and takeover by a more virile culture (which will also bring an end to SSM). Either way, I doubt SSM will be here for long.
After decades, Roe v Wade has not been reversed, as it is settled law. It will never be fully reversed. Same with gay marriages.

Catholics would be wiser to meet in the middle and offer partial solutions (for example, allow abortion only in cases of incest or rape), rather than take no prisoners and alienate the secular world.
Yes it is “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons”

Yes, it is Catholic teaching.

Why should it be repealed or de-emphasized? It seems very logical and “Catholic” to me.
So are Catholics** expressly required** to follow that document, along with the Participation of Catholics in Political Life? Are those two documents part of the Magisterium??
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MarkInOregon:
Why does it need to be a Biblical? As citizens of this country don’t we have a right to work for, lobby for the type of society we believe is best? If we believe that same sex marriage is damaging to our society as a whole --why are we not allowed to lobby/advocate for that position? We live in a country where we have political rights to lobby for they type of society we wish to live in. It is crazy to argue or suggest that we need a Biblical mandate to do so. That’s not where our political rights come from.

In this country we used to make laws that tried to balance individual rights with the good of society and at times individual rights were limited based on what was in the interest of society as a whole–today we are moving ever more quickly in the other direction elevating individual rights over what is best for society as a whole. We are allowing individual rights to triumph even where they will damage/weaken society as a whole.
Let’s refocus this thread again. Yes, there does need to be a political mandate found within Catholic teaching. Where is it? Not “natural law” or the idea that it’s “intrinsically evil.” Otherwise, it may obviate (make unnecessary) the opposition of conservative Catholics to gay marriage!

Once again, to the secular world, there is nothing evil about homosexuality at all. To them it is “clear” that recognizing gay marriage is a positive to society, not a negative. Do you see the chasm in understanding here? There is no proof that the damage to society that you mention will be realized. The states and countries that have recognized gay marriages continue to live as normal and continue to have thriving societies and economies. God hasn’t brought his wrath upon them as you have feared.
 
No, it’s not that clear. The secular world does not understand why gay relationships cannot be held up as equal to straight relationships. It is scientifically normal for some humans to be gay, and gay people are capable of loving, committed relationships and raising families. So the secular world would see it as a positive thing to legally recognize gay marriages.
The secular world isn’t secular, it’s neo-pagan. It’s very good at pretending to be secular and neutral, which gives it a free hand to assault rival faiths, which we are already seeing. It is scientifically normal for some humans to have a disposition toward alcoholism, that doesn’t make binge drinking acceptable.
After decades, Roe v Wade has not been reversed, as it is settled law. It will never be fully reversed. Same with gay marriages.
Catholics would be wiser to meet in the middle and offer partial solutions (for example, allow abortion only in cases of incest or rape), rather than take no prisoners and alienate the secular world.
All abortions are the deliberate killing of an innocent human being, and hence evil and no amount of wishful thinking can make it otherwise. In the case of rape and incest, the child has done nothing to warrant the death penalty. One might as well say, “The cattle cars full of Jews will never stop rolling into Auschwitz. It is settle law and will never be reversed. Catholics would be wiser to meet in the middle and suggest the Nazis only gas the really old Jews.”
So are Catholics** expressly required** to follow that document, along with the Participation of Catholics in Political Life? Are those two documents part of the Magisterium??
Doesn’t matter the status of the documents because they are just reiterating permanent truths: Immoral laws are not binding on the conscience and there is a duty to avoid formal cooperation with them and avoid material cooperation with them as is reasonably possible.
Let’s refocus this thread again. Yes, there does need to be a political mandate found within Catholic teaching. Where is it? Not “natural law” or the idea that it’s “intrinsically evil.” Otherwise, it may obviate (make unnecessary) the opposition of conservative Catholics to gay marriage!
Once again, to the secular world, there is nothing evil about homosexuality at all. To them it is “clear” that recognizing gay marriage is a positive to society, not a negative. Do you see the chasm in understanding here? There is no proof that the damage to society that you mention will be realized. The states and countries that have recognized gay marriages continue to live as normal and continue to have thriving societies and economies. God hasn’t brought his wrath upon them as you have feared.
We already are seeing the harm. Case after case where believers in true marriage are threatened, harassed, fired from jobs for refusing to bow to this neo-pagan idol, and there is no logical stopping point to how bad it can get because believers in true marriages are branded untermencshen. These examples are features, not bugs because evil acts demand either accomplices or absolute silence from dissenters. Homosexual “marriages” are not real. They make a mockery of marriage, destroy the ability to form proper non-sexual friendships, offend against Chastity, and are a menace to public morals.
 
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