Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

[grandfather]

Repentance is a response of faith.

 

[Jaboshua]

Yes, other Christians are considered part of the body, though incompletely.

CCC paragraph 818:
“All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
819 Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity.

But if I don’t believe that Mary is a coredeemer, I am damned by “the church”. If I don’t partake in its Eucharist I am damned, if I don’t partake in any of the sacraments, dont believe that the pope has the authority the Catholics proclaim, don’t talk(pray) to the deadi am damned. I can only hope on Christ and his promises for me, my family, and my “neighbors”.

 

[grandfather]

I do not dispute that our good works will be rewarded by God. Scripture plainly teaches this, and no Protestant tradition I know of denies it (I could be wrong in that).

.

Iggy,

Can you name five things all Protestant traditions agree upon?

I think I can name two, but maybe it is one.

 

[grandfather]

The qualifications for the office of Apostle cannot be met today. In a more negative sense, can you reference one passage of Scripture wherein the authority of the twelve, Paul, James, and Barnabas is said to be given to another?

.

How did Barnabus obtain authority?

In Acts the apostles replaced Judas, by drawing straws.

Can you name one passage in scripture that says the Church has lost her authority to teach, given to her by Christ to His apostles?

If every Christian has this authority we have doctrinal chaos, as witnessed in Protestantism, pure confusion.

 

[anodos]

But if I don’t believe that Mary is a coredeemer, I am damned by “the church”. If I don’t partake in its Eucharist I am damned, if I don’t partake in any of the sacraments, dont believe that the pope has the authority the Catholics proclaim, don’t talk(pray) to the deadi am damned. I can only hope on Christ and his promises for me, my family, and my “neighbors”.

The Catholic Church does not teach that any individual is damned; there’s always a “maybe” factor. Only God knows. I quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to show that non-Catholic Christian communities do, in fact, have their means of salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[JonNC]

Confessional Lutherans would reunite with Rome in a heartbeat (at least I would, and I am sure Jon would as well), if the issues which still divide us were resolved. It was never the position of the conservative Reformation to divide from the Western church. We believe Rome did that at the Council of Trent.

In a heartbeat. So much so, in my case, that soteriology is not an obstacle for me. Ecclesiology, however, is.

Jon

 

[onemangang]

There is nothing in that about preserving justification. What it does mean, is that one who merely professes faith without the actions to back up his faith, doesn’t really have faith to begin with. Just a profession.

I have read this to be a position of yours in a couple of post. I do not accept this view. I will start a new thread on this subject soon, but I am busy with a new car project. I think it would benefit you greatly to read a book by** Robert Sungenis** called Not by Faith Aone!

It was instrumental in usurping my previous “reformed” view of justification.

All I would say is, the works James talks about are salvific!

They are not meritorious in regards to payment due for work performed, that is strict merit.

They are however meritorious in this sense. God has told us what is pleasing to Him, and doing such acts are meriting justification. They are only meritorious because God is looking at us, through the eye’s of Mercy and Love as His Children, due to the Merit of His Son, by grace we receive, we have entered into a divine family! God is not bound to pay us, but since He says in His word, we will be justified by works, viewed through the eye’s of His mercy, through the Merit of His Son, we can hold fast that He will. God isn’t somehow bound to anything, but He is in the sense that, if He says something, He who is Truth, will honor His own words.

So it is completely by His GRACE, and LOVE, that doing these works viewed through the eye’s of a Merciful, Loving Father, we are justified.

It is all about entering into the covenant a divine family!

Therefore, we are Saved by Grace, through faith, working in Love.

That is about as basic as I can put it, for the time being. I think I will greatly expand on this in another thread!

Confessional Lutherans would reunite with Rome in a heartbeat (at least I would, and I am sure Jon would as well), if the issues which still divide us were resolved. It was never the position of the conservative Reformation to divide from the Western church. We believe Rome did that at the Council of Trent.

Lay, out specifically, what the issues are, in a thread, so that we may open a dialog on these topics, if you would please!

I would ask of JonNC to do the same in regards to Ecclesiology!

Peace and Love in Christ!

 

[grandfather]

Iggy,

Suppose someone offered you a proposition. Suppose I said if you will wear a white shirt to lunch tomorrow I will give you a million dollars. That is my offer. The bargain is not reasonable. There is no way you fairly earn the million dolalrs for soing something like putting on a shirt. But if I agree to do this thing and you fulfill your part of the bargain you deserve what I promised.

God says, I offer you forgiveness of your sins, eternal life where you will participate with me in the divine nature of the Blessed Trinity if you will believe the offer and repent of your sins. I send my Son to take on your nature and go to the cross to seal the deal. I swear to you I will forgive you, clean you of all iniquity, and welcome you to my heaven.

If you do what God asks of you, you fulfill your end of the deal however ridiculous the deal seems. It is not fair value for fair value. Nevertheless if you do it you have done what God requires to expect Him to do what He promised. He has given you salvation and at the same time you have earned it by saying yes to it and turning from your evil ways, because that is the deal God offers. You merit salvation in exchange for repentance…

 

[Cat_Herder]

But if I don’t believe that Mary is a coredeemer, I am damned by “the church”.

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

(It doesn’t matter whether you translate the “she” as “he,” they are both at enmity with the devil.)

If I don’t partake in its Eucharist I am damned,

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:54[/BIBLEDRB]

if I don’t partake in any of the sacraments,

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

dont believe that the pope has the authority the Catholics proclaim

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 16:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Eph 4:11[/BIBLEDRB]

don’t talk(pray) to the deadi am damned.

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 12:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

I can only hope on Christ and his promises for me, my family, and my “neighbors”.

You could start by losing the they’re-out-to-get-me stuff (fear is of the enemy, not of the Lord) and by reading your Bible.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Can you name one passage in scripture that says the Church has lost her authority to teach, given to her by Christ to His apostles?

There isn’t one. In fact the Bible is quite clear that the Church will never lose the truth.

But all Protestants have to assert that the Catholic Church apostatized in order to justify their existence, so they just add the “great apostasy” to the Bible while shouting “Sola Scriptura.”

 

[JonNC]

There isn’t one. In fact the Bible is quite clear that the Church will never lose the truth.

But all Protestants have to assert that the Catholic Church apostatized in order to justify their existence, so they just add the “great apostasy” to the Bible while shouting “Sola Scriptura.”

All Protestants? Apostasized means to reject the faith entirely. Lutherans certainly to not believe that about Catholics. We believe you are Christians. We do think there are some errors in your teachings, but I don’t think you’ll find “the great apostasy” aaplied to the Catholic Church in our confessions.

Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

All Protestants? Apostasized means to reject the faith entirely. Lutherans certainly to not believe that about Catholics. We believe you are Christians. We do think there are some errors in your teachings, but I don’t think you’ll find “the great apostasy” aaplied to the Catholic Church in our confessions.

Jon

I think you know what Confessional Lutheranism says about the pope.

 

[JonNC]

I think you know what Confessional Lutheranism says about the pope.

You mean what it says about the papacy? Sure I do. The position of the confessions was that, in essence, by claiming for itself universal jurisdiction, it was acting against the word of God, acting against Christ.

The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

The problem with the term “anti-Christ” is that it has taken on meanings from the radical reformation groups over the last century or so, meanings not intended by the confessions. Frankly, I think the term ought to be disgarded, but I certainly don’t think what the reformers meant was that the CC was apostate, and I don’t either.

Over the centuries, terms like “anti-christ” and “heretics” have been lobbed back and forth. They do no service today to advancing reconciliation between us. The cause of unity to which we are called to by Christ is harmed by name-calling.

Jon

 

[IggyAntiochus]

I have read this to be a position of yours in a couple of post. I do not accept this view. I will start a new thread on this subject soon, but I am busy with a new car project. I think it would benefit you greatly to read a book by** Robert Sungenis** called Not by Faith Aone!

I don’t read the writings of professional sophists. Catholic or Protestant.

All I would say is, the works James talks about are salvific!

Except for the nothing about salvation in that passage part!

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Seeing as there were already false gospels circulating during his lifetime, if there is no one with Paul’s authority to set things straight, it would be all but impossible to guarantee that anyone actually had knowledge of the truth and the ability to be saved.

I don’t see how this is the case being that the authority of the apostles was passed on to the church through the sacred writings. It does not require individuals to possess apostolic authority in order for them to examine the writings of the apostles and to base their theological conclusions upon those. We know that combining faith with the works of the law will lead to damnation because Paul has told us it will.

I know Jesus. He would NEVER allow something like that to happen. He loves us too much to leave us in anxiety over whether a given gospel is the real thing. That is why there was an Apostle Paul, and for that matter, an Apostle Peter–and thus why there is the Catholic Church.

And being that the teachings of Paul and Peter are available to me, I can discern from that what is and is not a false gospel.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You mean what it says about the papacy? Sure I do. The position of the confessions was that, in essence, by claiming for itself universal jurisdiction, it was acting against the word of God, acting against Christ.

Let’s look carefully at that charge:

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

The Pope absolutely DOES have authority to correct Caesar (the civil authority) when Caesar goes and does something that is objectively evil. We are seeing this right now with the HHS mandate regarding contraception. As the Manhattan Declaration states, no Christian can give onto Caesar that which is God’s.

We saw it when Henry VIII violated Clause 1 of the Magna Carta by taking over the English Church and destroying the monasteries. Who held the crown responsible? It was the Pope who declared that the English Monarchy was illegitimate and that the English subjects were justified in getting rid of the monarchy. Here in the United States of America, that is exactly what we did.

By the logic of the Lutheran Confessions, Americans are the anti-christ because we asserted that God by and through men gave us the authority to depose the king. The historical record is clear that the Confessions were written by and for European monarchs who wanted to reduce the authority of the Church to enhance their own.

The Reformation is over.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Lay, out specifically, what the issues are, in a thread, so that we may open a dialog on these topics, if you would please!

I would ask of JonNC to do the same in regards to Ecclesiology!

Peace and Love in Christ!

bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Let’s look carefully at that charge:

The Pope absolutely DOES have authority to correct Caesar (the civil authority) when Caesar goes and does something that is objectively evil. We are seeing this right now with the HHS mandate regarding contraception. As the Manhattan Declaration states, no Christian can give onto Caesar that which is God’s.

Please describe where in the writings of the apostles they give the bishops the authority to depose anyone from a political office? Speaking out on a social evil or advising the flock how to redress such grievances is a far cry from the ability to depose or elect an official.

By the logic of the Lutheran Confessions, Americans are the anti-christ because we asserted that God by and through men gave us the authority to depose the king. The historical record is clear that the Confessions were written by and for European monarchs who wanted to reduce the authority of the Church to enhance their own.

Is the American government a theological office?

 

[JonNC]

=Cat Herder;9004442]Let’s look carefully at that charge:

The Pope absolutely DOES have authority to correct Caesar (the civil authority) when Caesar goes and does something that is objectively evil. We are seeing this right now with the HHS mandate regarding contraception. As the Manhattan Declaration states, no Christian can give onto Caesar that which is God’s.

I’m not sure the current HHS mandate, as hideous as it is, can be compared to the 1500’s.
Correcting is not the same as bestowing.

We saw it when Henry VIII violated Clause 1 of the Magna Carta by taking over the English Church and destroying the monasteries. Who held the crown responsible? It was the Pope who declared that the English Monarchy was illegitimate and that the English subjects were justified in getting rid of the monarchy. Here in the United States of America, that is exactly what we did.

Same here.

By the logic of the Lutheran Confessions, Americans are the anti-christ because we asserted that God by and through men gave us the authority to depose the king. The historical record is clear that the Confessions were written by and for European monarchs who wanted to reduce the authority of the Church to enhance their own.

this is, ISTM, upside down from what was going on in the time of the Reformation.

The Reformation is over.

That would be my prayer. My desire to see reconciliation between our communions. It would not be my desire if I thought the Bishop of Rome and those in communion with him were apostate, as you claimed about all protestants earlier.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Let’s look carefully at that charge:
The Pope absolutely DOES have authority to correct Caesar (the civil authority) when Caesar goes and does something that is objectively evil. We are seeing this right now with the HHS mandate regarding contraception. As the Manhattan Declaration states, no Christian can give onto Caesar that which is God’s.

2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].

I might add, Cat, I don’t believe the papacy believes anymore that it has the authority regarding civil authority as it believed in the 1500’s, unless I’m mistaken. I have always believed that this part of the confessions is not a doctrinal statement, and that Lutherans have always recognized the possibility of change. In both 2 and 3, there has clearly been change.

Jon