Ideological fanatics divide the Christian community, pope says

[johnnyc176]

Perhaps another indication of what the Pope was speaking…

The Church needs a unified strategy to counter gender ideology, expert says

ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=15613

First, “we Christians, and certainly our bishops and nuncios, need to be convinced about our principles, the principles of our faith,” Fr. Robert Gahl told EWTN News May 16. “We also need to have a thought-through understanding of those principles, also regarding the human body.”

“Gender ideology is threatening the freedom of religious expression, religious belief, and the freedom of the Church as an institution in many places, and in the places where it’s not being threatened, it probably will be threatened very shortly,” the priest explained.

 

[Peter_J]

Funny how some react as if the Pope’s message is about them.

I think it was one of Mark Twain’s short stories that began with something like,

“Note to the reader: This story isn’t about your town, but the town next to yours.”

 

[lynnvinc]

I think what the Pope is referring to is “ideological determination,” which actually does go against the Gospel…as Christ was railing against it back then. Such determination skips the role of the heart and various complexities of life. It’s sort of like the authoritarian or paranoid personality type that sees things in simple “black & white” terms, without room for mitigating factors, etc. Without room for mercy or Christian love.

Both sides, Left and Right, can fall into such ideological determination or fanaticism.

What I’m thinking is that although there have always been such ideological fanaticism (and perhaps many of us feel a pull into it & struggle to resist), nowadays with a multiplicity of media sources that are highly diverse – not your old NBC, ABC, and CBS of yesteryear (which were fairly much the same) – and with opinion passing for news people fall more easily into such fanaticism, reading only what their media sources tell them, according to their ideological bent, and rejecting all other opinions and information that may contradict that bent.

The Pope is right to point out this is a serious problem that has become more serious in recent times. It divides people and enflames hatred.

 

[Jared2914]

In this context, I think Pope Francis refers to ideology as how to apply the doctrine to each person’s life. There are some basic things that everyone should follow, but many things are left up to each person to discern. For example, the Catechism says we need to give to the poor but doesn’t say how much money to give or what percentage of income to give. That’s up to each person to discern, with the help of a priest or spiritual director if needed. As a result, we can’t make a hard rule like “donate 10%” because it won’t apply to everyone. People who go out preaching you have to donate 10% and anything less is a sin, that’s the sort of thing the Pope is speaking against.

Funny how some react as if the Pope’s message is about them.

I think it strikes a nerve with everyone, without regard to political ideology.

Jim

Then he is doing his job well. =) His words speak to all Catholics and get us reflecting on how to apply his instruction to our lives.

 

[johnnyc176]

Another indication of what the Pope might have been speaking of…

Cardinal Caffarra: Satan is Hurling at God the “Ultimate and Terrible Challenge”

To combat Satan’s lies, Cardinal Caffarra stressed that the faithful are called upon to testify: to “announce openly and publicly” through such actions as this weekend’s March for Life in Rome, and to proclaim divine Revelation, speaking in particular of the “Gospel of Life and Marriage,” and doing so “as if in a trial.”

The main battle is the attack against the family and division is caused by those who place more importance on their liberal political ideology than on the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Peter_J]

I think what the Pope is referring to is “ideological determination,” which actually does go against the Gospel…as Christ was railing against it back then. Such determination skips the role of the heart and various complexities of life. It’s sort of like the authoritarian or paranoid personality type that sees things in simple “black & white” terms, without room for mitigating factors, etc. Without room for mercy or Christian love.

Both sides, Left and Right, can fall into such ideological determination or fanaticism.

What I’m thinking is that although there have always been such ideological fanaticism (and perhaps many of us feel a pull into it & struggle to resist), nowadays with a multiplicity of media sources that are highly diverse – not your old NBC, ABC, and CBS of yesteryear (which were fairly much the same) – and with opinion passing for news people fall more easily into such fanaticism, reading only what their media sources tell them, according to their ideological bent, and rejecting all other opinions and information that may contradict that bent.

The Pope is right to point out this is a serious problem that has become more serious in recent times. It divides people and enflames hatred.

 

[rock022]

Oh, man! Reading the comments I thought this was very complicated. So I read the article and what the Pope said. It was very clear. Here is how it started:

“Pope Francis warned that ideologues sow confusion and division in the Church in the name of false clarity, rather than relying on the Pope, the bishops, and Church councils inspired by the Holy Spirit.”

If you guys have been paying attention, the Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, has caused quite a stir in the church precisely because people with no authority have been dividing the people. The Bishops have questions about it at it is being addressed, but this things take time.

This is not only about Amoris Laetitia, but also with many other issues, and can be brought down to the level of our own parish. People that water down the Gospel to suit their agenda. You know, the: “No one will go to hell, everyone will be saved” mentality. And the Gender Theory, which the Pope speaks against so much. Those are just examples.

 

[lynnvinc]

Oh, man! Reading the comments I thought this was very complicated. So I read the article and what the Pope said. It was very clear. Here is how it started:

“Pope Francis warned that ideologues sow confusion and division in the Church in the name of false clarity, rather than relying on the Pope, the bishops, and Church councils inspired by the Holy Spirit.”

If you guys have been paying attention, the Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, has caused quite a stir in the church precisely because people with no authority have been dividing the people. The Bishops have questions about it at it is being addressed, but this things take time.

This is not only about Amoris Laetitia, but also with many other issues, and can be brought down to the level of our own parish. People that water down the Gospel to suit their agenda. You know, the: “No one will go to hell, everyone will be saved” mentality. And the Gender Theory, which the Pope speaks against so much. Those are just examples.

I was just thinking about that after reading the article, that overcoming such fanaticism boils down to obedience to the Church hierarchy, which makes our Catholic faith somewhat different from most other religions.

I was thinking of this in the context of the atrocities against Dalit (untouchable) Catholics within the Catholic Church in India. JPII specifically addressed this issue in 2003, and the Indian Bishops have come out with great statements, and hopefully Pope Francis will come out with a statement (if someone could apprise him of the dire situation), but so far it only looks good on paper, and not much being done in action (or even mention of these in homilies, etc.) to overcome the insidious superstition that Dalits pollute higher caste Catholics and therefore should be shunned, given separate seating at Mass, different wells for drinking water, a different hearse, and the yearly festival procession of the village namesake (like Our Lady of the Rosary) should not go through Dalit streets, etc. Violation of which could result in severe punishment, even murder.

There has been a bit of progress since the whole thing came out in the courts, astonishing the Hindu justices that there is worse discrimination among Catholics. Now finally by court order and Church agreement the procession will go thru the Dalit streets this year, some 10 years after that court order, which had followed the higher caste Catholics ransacking Dalit Catholic homes and their little Marian chapel, abusing their women, burning their children’s school books and uniforms, all because they had dared to ask for a separate Church with a separate Mass in their area.

Slow as justice is, it is really good that we have our Church authorities to guide us on the right path to overcome such superstitions, unchristian behavior, and ideological fanaticism. It may take time, but it is so much better than other religions in which there is no such guidance with strong authority re the same oppression against Dalit Hindus, Dalit Protestants, Dalit Sikhs, and Dalit Muslims.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

The main battle is the attack against the family and division is caused by those who place more importance on their liberal political ideology than on the teachings of Jesus.

Some of the “liberal political ideology” is quite in line with the teachings of Jesus, and some of the Right-wing political ideology is quite foreign to those teachings.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ideological fanatics = those who know the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law.

In other words, those who have religion without spirituality.

This is what the Pope is referring to

Jim

 

[PPeterson]

Pretty sure he’s calling out know it all CAFers who are never wrong.

 

[ringil]

Could certainly be talking about the liberal agenda that places more importance on their political ideology than on the teachings of Jesus.

Or the conservative agenda?

 

[Athanasiy]

It is probably very useful to listen for many Сharismatic revolutionaries of the political extreme right and extreme left movements.

 

[lynnvinc]

Ideological fanatics = those who know the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law.

In other words, those who have religion without spirituality.

This is what the Pope is referring to

Jim

I’m even thinking they may not know the letter of the Catholic law completely, but fill in with other ideologies and personal preferences.

I know the Catholic right accuses the Catholic left of following non-Catholic ideology, and the Catholic left accuses the Catholic right of following non-Catholic ideology.

Which is why my Carmelite president up north told us we should neither be to the right or left, but in the middle (or simply neither). Every major election time the polarization increases, but I think it tends to subside during non-political seasons. Then we get back to the Bible and Catholic teaching in the full, not just those things that jive with our political ideologies.

In lectures I have defined ideology as “concept of society” – which mainly covers political and economic beliefs and values, as well as concept of person – which for Western culture is mainly the Enlightenment idea that people are separate individuals or monads, free, with rights, and little or no connection or responsibilities to others (as opposed to traditional culture, which stress human interconnections, responsibilities and duties); self and one’s rights are all important, while others are not salient in the mind. Since we no longer focus strongly on duties, we tend to in word if not deed accord rights to the poor, powerless, and unborn, and now even to animals and nature, but since might tends to make right, we don’t fully ensure their rights to exist, survive or thrive.

If ideology is concept of society and person, then religious beliefs and values go well beyond ideology, since God is infinitely greater than us finite humans and our human societies.

We humbly praise the Almighty, Omniscient, Omni-present, Omni-Potent under the cloud of unknowing, as the finite cannot really comprehend the Infinite. We acknowledge our dependence for all things on the Almighty and understand that all is from Him, and the power, the kingdom and the glory are His (not ours).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m even thinking they may not know the letter of the Catholic law completely, but fill in with other ideologies and personal preferences.

I know the Catholic right accuses the Catholic left of following non-Catholic ideology, and the Catholic left accuses the Catholic right of following non-Catholic ideology.

Which is why my Carmelite president up north told us we should neither be to the right or left, but in the middle (or simply neither). Every major election time the polarization increases, but I think it tends to subside during non-political seasons. Then we get back to the Bible and Catholic teaching in the full, not just those things that jive with our political ideologies.

In lectures I have defined ideology as “concept of society” – which mainly covers political and economic beliefs and values, as well as concept of person – which for Western culture is mainly the Enlightenment idea that people are separate individuals or monads, free, with rights, and little or no connection or responsibilities to others (as opposed to traditional culture, which stress human interconnections, responsibilities and duties); self and one’s rights are all important, while others are not salient in the mind. Since we no longer focus strongly on duties, we tend to in word if not deed accord rights to the poor, powerless, and unborn, and now even to animals and nature, but since might tends to make right, we don’t fully ensure their rights to exist, survive or thrive.

If ideology is concept of society and person, then religious beliefs and values go well beyond ideology, since God is infinitely greater than us finite humans and our human societies.

We humbly praise the Almighty, Omniscient, Omni-present, Omni-Potent under the cloud of unknowing, as the finite cannot really comprehend the Infinite. We acknowledge our dependence for all things on the Almighty and understand that all is from Him, and the power, the kingdom and the glory are His (not ours).

I agree, but have also read much about the subject.

It has to do with humans needing to feel part of a group.

It’s really and ego-identity attachment to a political or religious ideology which a person belongs to.

It doesn’t matter if its Liberal or Conservative, Protestant or Catholic. When a person has an ego-identity attachment to these, they’ll become offended when the group’s belief is questioned by outsiders.

Even people on a particular diet often end up with an ego-identity attachment to that particular diet, and heaven forbid if someone points out that the diet is unhealthy.

St John of the Cross wrote that we need to detach ourselves from disordered appetites which were not from God. He was really talking about the ego, which in his day had not been defined yet.

The best way to weaken the ego, is to live in the present, which is all that exists, and where God. The ego wants to dwell on the past and plan for the future, seeking ways to improve the false image it creates.

A good book on the subject is “The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion,” by Jonathan Haidt. He gets right to the heart of group identity attachments. .

Jim

 

[Peter_J]

Pretty sure he’s calling out know it all CAFers who are never wrong.

Well I just hope he wasn’t talking about me, or I might have to report him.

 

[Peter_J]

Kidding.

 

[lynnvinc]

I agree, but have also read much about the subject.

It has to do with humans needing to feel part of a group.

It’s really and ego-identity attachment to a political or religious ideology which a person belongs to.

It doesn’t matter if its Liberal or Conservative, Protestant or Catholic. When a person has an ego-identity attachment to these, they’ll become offended when the group’s belief is questioned by outsiders.

Even people on a particular diet often end up with an ego-identity attachment to that particular diet, and heaven forbid if someone points out that the diet is unhealthy.

St John of the Cross wrote that we need to detach ourselves from disordered appetites which were not from God. He was really talking about the ego, which in his day had not been defined yet.

The best way to weaken the ego, is to live in the present, which is all that exists, and where God. The ego wants to dwell on the past and plan for the future, seeking ways to improve the false image it creates.

A good book on the subject is “The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion,” by Jonathan Haidt. He gets right to the heart of group identity attachments. .

Jim

Yes, John of the Cross talks about attachments, not only to material things, but to ideologies (tho he doesn’t use that word) and even to spiritual things & comforts (which are not God Himself).

He says it doesn’t matter if a bird has a heavy chain around its leg or a thin thread (tiny attachment), it will not be able to fly up to God.

“The soul that is attached to anything however much good there may be in it will not arrive at the liberty of divine union. For whether it be a strong wire rope or a slender and delicate thread that holds the bird, it matters not, if it really holds it fast; for until the cord be broken the bird cannot fly.”

 

[PseuTonym]

So what is dogma?

I honestly don’t know what he is talking about.

I recommend two books:

The Totalitarian Temptation Paperback
by Jean Francois Revel (Author), David Hapgood (Translator)

The True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements
by Eric Hoffer

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, John of the Cross talks about attachments, not only to material things, but to ideologies (tho he doesn’t use that word) and even to spiritual things & comforts (which are not God Himself).

He says it doesn’t matter if a bird has a heavy chain around its leg or a thin thread (tiny attachment), it will not be able to fly up to God.

“The soul that is attached to anything however much good there may be in it will not arrive at the liberty of divine union. For whether it be a strong wire rope or a slender and delicate thread that holds the bird, it matters not, if it really holds it fast; for until the cord be broken the bird cannot fly.”

I read an interesting meditation today from Fr Richard Rohr, who isn’t well liked at CAF, but nonetheless he shared some Franciscan theology, which Pope Benedict XVI himself wrote about in his work, Jesus of Nazareth.

“Franciscans believe that *Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity. *It didn’t need changing: God has organically, inherently loved what God created from the moment God created. Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God…”

Pope Benedict wrote the same in effect when he wrote that Jesus death and resurrection wasn’t to appease God. God so loved the world that He sent his only Son. God’s love preceded the birth of Jesus Christ.

Jim