Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[maryj]

JTBC, have you ever heard or read anything on the Divine Mercy? Have you seen the image painted under St. Faustina’s direction to E. Kazimirowski in 1934? through St. Faustina, the merciful Savior has given the aching world new channels for the out pouring of His grace. These new channels include the image of the Divine Mercy. Jesus said to her: Paint an image according to the pattern you see with the signature: Jesus I trust in you. I promise that the soul that will venerate this image will not perish. I also promise victory over enemies already here on earth, especially at the hour of death. I myself will defend it as My own glory I am offering people a vessel with which they are to keep coming for graces to the fountain of Mercy. that vessel is this image with the signature: " Jesus, I trust in you" I desire that this image be venerated, first in your chapel, and then throughout the world.

Jesus, I trust in you.

 

[IAmEdmund]

I have done no such thing. I understand being touchy when you feel threatened. This place wreaks of hatred and false accusation and may the good Lord have mercy on you!More false accusation. You can’t handle a rational discussion that challenges your faith. I understand. I pray you’ll follow that unrest and find the truth.

You have driven me all the farther into my convictions and away from the church - not b/c of your hatred, but b/c your defensiveness and failure at showing good evidence that I should break the 2nd commandment is proof to me that even you realize that there is no real excuse, and what the church has taught you that you believe is just that - an excuse…

Peace~

Careful, your vitriol is showing.

You are anti-catholic, and are a very angry person at the Catholic Church. Dance around this ALL you want, but its very clear you are here to antagonise those of us who follow the True Church of Jesus Christ.

Catholics do not worship idols, no matter HOW you try to define words to fit your angry attack on the Catholic Church. We understand.

Jesus said there would be days like this. Keep the persecution coming… the gates hold, the center holds. Jesus’s Church, known as The Holy Roman Catholic Church, will continue in the Truth.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you.

And we are all priests. We should attempt to correct our brother’s errors.

With all due respect, you are not any priest of our faith. You do not have the commission or authority to correct Catholics about their faith practices. Your attempt to do so in such a judgemental matter is what brought the defensive responses you got here. This is not a venue for you to come here and correct Catholics about what you believe are their errors.

 

[teadough]

I don’t like hateful confrontation and that is why I need to cease doing this.

Peace~

I highly suggest you take a break. Message boards can take on a life of their own. People will say “it’s just a message board”. well, these types of conversations can really get overwhelming on our mind. You have 10 different things coming at you from
20 different angles. Take a break.Sign off and spend some quiet time with your family and take a break from apologetics from either side. Go to the library and grab a novel and curl up in the bed and give yourself a break. Rent a DVD. Just chill for a while. Get some exercise and get those endorphins flowing.

When we are in conflict with others it will affect other areas of our life. This can rollover to your personal life,or even work. Give yourself a break. You deserve it. I believe the Catholic Church is the one Church,but I also believe in the well being of my brothers and sisters in Christ. God will not force Himself on you and it can appear if we are trying to do that. Deep down we truly care about which road you take. Please know that.

God Bless, tim

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t say he worshipped the angel. In fact, he immediately then acknowledges God in saying “what saith my Lord…”. His reverence is clearly directed toward God and not the angel.

This is amazing. Here is a man prostrating himself before a created being, the text clearly indicated he worshipped, saying 'what saith my Lord", and yet you can derive from it that he is not worshipping the angel. Yet, if a Franciscan monk kneels before a shrine, he is committing idolatry!? And you claim not to judge the hearts of others!

 

[madquack]

Howdy, JTBC!

I’ve been reading this discussion, and it’s very interesting… And I’m not going to join in, because I’m not that great at discussion. But I would like to say, that I’ll be praying for you, JTBC, and I hope you are successful in finding the truth.

Since I’m a Catholic, I think it would be pretty pointless for me to say I disagree with you, since you’ve made it clear that you don’t see eye to eye with the Church anyway. And believe me, I understand, (I have a couple Bible Christian friends) and I’m not trying to convert you, although I obviously hope you do. But my prayers are with you, and may God bless you!

 

[guanophore]

Worship is quite different than using money, don’t you think?

Yes, about as different as using images in prayer.

God was specific about what kind of images and why it was forbidden. The entire OT is filled with examples of the Israelites breaking the commandment so it is quite clear from those examples precisely what it is that God dislikes. People very well may have intended to be worshipping the OTG when they worshipped idols. Do you really think their intention was to worship an imagined god? For instance - the golden calf: certainly to the people the calf represented God or at least some of His attributes. They acknowledged God’s power and mercy in delivering them from bondage as they cried out in worship. Ok, so you maybe see some validity to my reasoning and so now your defense is that I’m not infallible?

Ex 32:3-4
4 And he received the gold at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made a molten calf; and they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”

How can you possibly get out of this that the worship was directed to God?

I think their intention was to worship the gods of Egypt. In what way does this calf represent any attributes of the almighty?

You are mistaken when you think that people can worship unintentionally. Adoration requires an act of the will. One cannot adore in worship with out willful intention. In creating and saying this about the golden calf, they replaced the God of their fathers, and attributed their salvation from Egypt to the gods of Egypt.

That may be the intention but the action is a clear violation of the command “you shall not bow to them”.

This is getting redundant.

It is, because you already have your mind made up. You can see that Joshua bowing down before an angel is not worshipping the angel because his heart is directed toward God. However, you cannot accept that other people who kneel or bow are worshipping God (no matter what might be in their environment). The violation is one of intention. It is a bowing of the mind and heart, as much as of the body. Bowing the body, by itself, does not indicate worship.

1 Kings 2:19-20

19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.

Or do you believe that Solomon committed idolatry for bowing before his mother, and reverencing her?

JoyToBeCatholic:

The command is not to bow down to images. It is not “thou shalt not bow down to God in front of an angel”.

EXACTLY! Just like it doesn 't say “thou shalt not bow down to God in front of an altar, or a statue, or a wall, etc”. Are the Jews idolators because they pray by the wall of the temple?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Obviously not. The command is not to bow down to images.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I’m saying this with all respect, honestly. Your habit of changing what you do and don’t agree with, even within this thread, is getting a little redundant. The intention is what mattered with the angel, not the action, but with us it’s the action that matters, not the intention. How is that fair?

The command is not to bow down to images. It is not “thou shalt not bow down to God in front of an angel”.

 

[lak611]

The command is not to bow down to images. It is not “thou shalt not bow down to God in front of an angel”.

From A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (who were Protestant):

Under the auspices of Moses himself, figures of cherubim, brazen serpents, oxen, and many other things in the earth beneath, were made and never condemned. The mere making was no sin - it was the making with the intent to give idolatrous worship.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Actually, my last post asked some questions that go to the very heart of the matter.

If you say so.

To whit:

1. Have you literally gouged out an eye, or cut off a hand? (this goes to the question of whether every command in scripture is to be taken literally, and if not, why not?)

No, I have not literally done so b/c a literal interpretation would make such a statement against Christ’s nature (relying on other Scriptures to show this). Scripture interprets Scripture, (along with a little help from the Holy Ghost )

1. Are Christians still under OT Law? Which OT commands are we to obey, and which are we not to obey? And how do you know the answer to that question? (this goes to the question of selectively taking those OT laws which are useful to beat on Catholicism with, while ignoring the others)

“I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it”. Acts answers more specifically - like no need for circumcision etc…

1. Since you appeal to Christ in defending your use of likenesses, is there any New Testament prohibition on statues (and icons)? Not idols, but statues and icons? (Since you defended your use of money with images by noting that Christ did not condemn it, I am asking why we cannot take the same approach - lack of condemnation by Christ - with statues and icons)

I don’t have to. It is one of the commands of God that Christ didn’t nail to the tree. “Thou shalt not make any GRAVEN image…” (That is what a statue is) “OR likeness…”(that is what religious art or icons are).

So, my last post definitely brought something new to the discussion, and nothing sarcastic. And you didn’t answer any of my substantive points.

I’m sorry if you were sincere. It appeared off-topic and sarcastic. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Peace,

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

From A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (who were Protestant):
Quote:
Under the auspices of Moses himself, figures of cherubim, brazen serpents, oxen, and many other things in the earth beneath, were made and never condemned. The mere making was no sin - it was the making with the intent to give idolatrous worship.
I have already answered this. They were made by God’s command. They were made for God’s purposes. There is no scriptural support that they were intentionally knelt before, prayed before, etc… or actually USED (“make for yourselves”) for the purpose of worship (“adoration”).

 

[bookgirl32]

Obviously not. The command is not to bow down to images.

Bowing down to people is okay though?

 

[VociMike]

Obviously not. The command is not to bow down to images.

Nor to make any likeness of any thing in heaven, on earth or in the sea.

 

[GreenLantern]

From A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (who were Protestant):
Quote:
Under the auspices of Moses himself, figures of cherubim, brazen serpents, oxen, and many other things in the earth beneath, were made and never condemned. The mere making was no sin - it was the making with the intent to give idolatrous worship.
I have already answered this. They were made by God’s command. They were made for God’s purposes. There is no scriptural support that they were intentionally knelt before, prayed before, etc… or actually USED (“make for yourselves”) for the purpose of worship (“adoration”).

1 Chronicles 28:

18And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

Here we have King David (though inspired by God) giving directions to the future King Solomon for the layout of the temple and which includes statues whose wings cover the Ark.

 

[bookgirl32]

If scripture interpreted scripture than how do we have so many people arguing over the interpretation of scripture?

And, I don’t remember who told you to do this, but I do think taking a break would be a good idea. I don’t know how you can keep track of who is posting to you and what after nine pages of it. I need to take a break too, but it is addicting!

 

[VociMike]

If you say so.No, I have not literally done so b/c a literal interpretation would make such a statement against Christ’s nature (relying on other Scriptures to show this). Scripture interprets Scripture, (along with a little help from the Holy Ghost )

So the literal words of scripture may not convey the actual truth of scripture. We finally agree.

“I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it”. Acts answers more specifically - like no need for circumcision etc…
I don’t have to. It is one of the commands of God that Christ didn’t nail to the tree. “Thou shalt not make any GRAVEN image…” (That is what a statue is) “OR likeness…”(that is what religious art or icons are).

But you acknowledge that all Christians actually do make and/or use likenesses. So once again you’re arguing against yourself.

And the New Testament does not have one bad thing to say about statues or icons. While it has plenty of bad things to say about idols. And it even defines what true idolatry is - do you know what it says true idolatry is? You might be very surprised.

 

[maryj]

JTBC, I’m guessing you don’t know what the Divine Mercy is.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Clearly you have made up your mind…if you are not here to pursuade others to join you then what is your point?

Like I already said: I need to test my convictions b/c I AM NOT 100% pursuaded of these developing convictions! When and if I do decide to receive believers baptism in this church I want to leave no stone unturned (as far as humanly possible anyway. If God convicts in the future that is just fine!) I’m being as thorough as I can in getting across the non-Catholic beliefs I’ve developed so I can see if they really stand.

These comments of yours seemed to me like they were judging others. Whenever I see the word “should” it comes across to me as though one is telling another how they ought to behave, think, or believe:

I am simply talking as the devil’s advocate so to speak. If I truly had these convictions I wouldn’t bother coming here to discuss them. I thought apologetics was to discuss differing views - otherwise it isn’t really apologetics but 1 way dialogue/teaching… If I don’t present these things the way I am considering them then I will never get to the bottom of this. Maybe there is a better approach I could have used,but since I feel like these convictions are pretty solid at this point they come across as if I am settled about them.

You seem to be assuming that people are giving what is due to only to God to a statue. Since you cannot read their hearts, isnt’ that a judgement on your part?

And should I not judge the teachings of a church if I am giving it consideration? The church encourages an ACTION (not intention) that is idolatrous. My beef is with the church here - not the people. I don’t know why you feel it is a personal attack. I cannot ask “The Church” the same way I can discuss it with knowledgable people FROM the church!

No, in charity, I can see that you had your mind made up before you came.

Yes, I mostly have, but I’m still not ready yet. Call this a last-ditch effort that so far has done nothing by strengthen my convictions.

Having had a similar sojourn in the Anabaptist/Mennonite communities that greately sharpened by faith, I would not discourage you. I am only asking that you be tolerant of those who believe and practice differently.

I am tolerant of what others do, but I have to KNOW for myself (as much as humanly possible) that I should not return to the Catholic faith and why. When I say about correcting an error and so forth I am not saying that I am trying to do that to all of you. I am saying that that is the CHURCH’s job to do, yet instead it encourages this practice. I am discussing a CHURCH TEACHING and the results of it in ACTION (not intention). Yes I said we are all priests and we should admonish one another in error, but I did not say this b/c that is what I am actually doing here! I can see it does appear that way though. I suppose if I personally knew a Catholic that did these things I would talk to them - I would feel it was my duty as a sibling in Christ. And no, I would not be so blunt about my concern with it. Maybe I am being inconsiderate in how I am presenting my train of thought and if I am I do appologize. I am just speaking my mind the way these thoughts came to my mind as I discovered them. Maybe I’m not being as sensitive as I should . I truly wouldn’t talk this way if I were really pursuaded - so maybe I shouldn’t here either

You come across as though everyone is in a state of idolatry who does the things that you did, because you have concluded that it was idolatry for you. If you know what is right for you to do, and you don’t do it, for you, it is a sin.

I committed no sin b/c I didn’t know. I am not terribly concerned for the souls of Catholics who do this b/c I realize that - if it is wrong - they do not realize it! But b/c it is questionable to me, I need to come at it from every angle until I either conclude that it IS an error the church teaches, or that it is a positive aid for Christians. B/c I question - I cannot feign ignorance. I am now responsible to find out, or for me it WILL be a sin - not just to practice it (which I surely wouldn’t) but to choose a church that encouraged it if it was wrong! Btw, I was never even taught about graven images in Catholic school. The 2nd commandment was “thou shalt not have other gods besides me” Period. Nothing about “graven images” or “bow before them or serve them…”. And we VERY RARELY read the Bible and were not encouraged to do so. (Btw - this was the 70s/80s)

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

JTBC, I’m guessing you don’t know what the Divine Mercy is.

I’m getting to it… Sorry I can’t post as quickly as everyone else! You guys think and post faster than I can blink!