Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[Church_Militant]

I actually consulted several different Bible versions before posting that one b/c they all said the same thing. Do you consider these butchered as well?:

My problem isn’t with the Bible translation, it’s that I disagree with your interpretation of the passage.

They all say the same thing. Bowing is an expression of adoration

lest that be your specific problem with the wording. The angel in revelations and Peter both viewed it as such and rebuked it. Going beyond what is written is pure speculation (that God told them it was worship and so they rebuked them) and an excuse not worthy of my consideration.Oh…so all the cultures where they bow to each other are involved in worship of each other? Like I said…twisted…

No offense, CM, but, IMO, you are notorious for twisting words and meanings (not just mine). I pray it is unintentional. I clearly brought vs 5 into light as to the reason it is forbidden.

If you say so. May God grant me the grace to always be the nemesis of all untruth and heresies.

However, I did not twist anything that you said and simply followed your comments out to their logical end.

Not true at all. Have you never seen a church with kneelers in front of its statues? When you say “no faithful Catholic ever does” you are probably meaning that they never intent to, and that is probably true in most cases, but again, intention does not excuse error unless it is due to ignorance. But those who have considered the Scripture which clearly condemns it and continue to defend the practice cannot make such a claim of ignorance.

Here again, this is your belief based on your own errant interpretation, and not at all on what the actual passage in question says.

My parish has a kneeler right in front of the Eucharistic tabernacle. If I kneel there to pray do you consider that to be idolatry as well?

I reject your interpretation because it is plain that it is twisted and forced on to the passage, as opposed to simply accepting what the context of the passage says. This is pretty typical of a literalist interpretation instead of a literal interpretation which is what the Catholic Church takes.

And, btw: Why do you continue to take part in apologetics discussion? You KNOW you are going to be dealing with non-Catholic thought - all of which you label: “anti-Catholic”.

Because having been deceived by people with Bibles in the past, I refuse to stand by and allow my Catholic brothers and sisters to suffer the same fate. It is also a function of the person that I am as a result of God’s active presence in my life. I am committed to the truth at all costs, regardless of where it leads.

The better statement would be that I “KNOW I am going to be dealing with non-Catholic -]thought/-]” error, and because I have dealt with these objections before I refute it.

Anti-Catholic propaganda is so widespread that people like you buy into it and are deceived by it all the time, even as I was. Just because you believe it doesn’t make it factually or Biblically accurate.

I am NOT anti-Catholic simply b/c I question the Catholic church’s teachings and don’t appreciate being uncharitably labelled as such! Do you need to mis-label people to justify yourself? Does it somehow make you feel more righteous? God help you…

I don’t think you’ll find anywhere in my posts where I label you an a-C. I simply point out that your beliefs are parroting the typical a-C propaganda.

Derrogatory comments like these are also numerous in your posts, and I had promised myself the last time I conversed with you that I would bring it to your attention.

So consider me told…for what it’s worth. The problem is that this is fairly common with n-Cs who can’t offer a cogent and accurate response to a refutation.

Suddenly I’m some kind of anti-Protestant, when in fact I’m not the one who goes to forums belonging to other faiths and errantly attacking what they believe. I’m not anti-anything but error, and I make no apology (no pun intended) for that. If you don’t want the holes punched in your arguments with facts then don’t put them out here where they can be dealt with. Just keep them safely tucked away inside you where they will be safe. But if anyone tosses out craziness around me… they can expect a refutation.

Your posts wreak with anti-“protestantism” & self-righteousness and lack the charity worth giving them consideration. The only reason I am responding to them is for the sake of those who do.

If you say so… I rather doubt that either you or the moderation staff here will agree. I know that I don’t.

I don’t care to follow error - even if it is 2000 years old. It doesn’t make it any more appealing.

And Catholics would have to say that we do not care to follow error, especially ones based on non-Christian influences that date no farther back than the 9th century.

Again, prove that the images were 1) adored/“served”/bowed to, etc… and furthermore,

Never said that any of that was so, nor have I ever asserted that this is what we Catholics do with any images.

1. prove that those who made those images were faithful in all aspects to the original faith.

Completely irrelevant. All they had to do was be correct on this one issue at the time the images were made.

By the same logic, one would eliminate every Protestant teacher because all of them have been in doctrinal error since the reformation.

Praying God will inspire you with a more respectful and charitable response

Praying that the Hoy Spirit convict your heart of the errors you have fallen into and lead you home.

 

[Church_Militant]

No response is needed here. Your posts blatantly reveal everything I could possibly point out as wrong… May God have mercy on you brother.

Peace,

If you say so. But the the evidence has refuted you, so now you just want to divert to focus on me.

I’m not the one arguing that the Bible says something that it plainly doesn’t.:yawn:

 

[Church_Militant]

It doesn’t say he worshipped the angel. In fact, he immediately then acknowledges God in saying “what saith my Lord…”. His reverence is clearly directed toward God and not the angel.

Hold it… You tell Catholics that it’s forbidden for us to kneel before a statue to pray and yet you refuse to condemn Joshua for actually prostrating himself before a mere angel with a message (Gee, Mary didn’t even do that!). Yet according to your twisted interpretation of the passage, this qualifies as adoration.

Here’s exactly what you told us.

They all say the same thing. Bowing is an expression of adoration lest that be your specific problem with the wording. The angel in revelations and Peter both viewed it as such and rebuked it. Going beyond what is written is pure speculation (that God told them it was worship and so they rebuked them) and an excuse not worthy of my consideration.

I don’t think I have to say anything else in refutation. Your error is obvious to all now.

And in the EXACT SAME WAY, when Catholics kneel before statues, etc., our reverence is directed TOWARD GOD and NOT the images.

Exactly!

That may be the intention but the action is a clear violation of the command “you shall not bow to them”.

Ah but according to your error you HAVE TO condemn Joshua…even though the Word of God does not!

This is getting redundant.

No! Really? Ya think?

 

[sodak]

No idols? Sounds to me like you worship the Bible!

 

[Church_Militant]

There is a world of difference between intentionally posturing oneself in front of an image to worship God and falling down in the presence of a heavenly messenger. I don’t see God condemning people for having done such things - admonish, yes, as was done to John by the angel in revelations and as Peter did to Cornelius. But God was clearly angry with the Israelites’ idolatry.

Here again, you dodge and twist. There is no comment from God at all that condemns Joshua’s action in that passage and so there is clearly no problem with his actions, and yet you will not extend the same logical and scriptural grace to Catholics?!

… The Ark WAS sacred - not fashioned by man’s own design for his own purposes, but commanded by God for God’s purposes. They were commanded to treat it with utmost reverence. They weren’t even allowed to touch it. How can you compare this to a man-made, self-serving statue???

You can’t…because the images we use are not self serving…they are God serving.

And I am the one accused of dancing here??

Nah…just being obstinately in error.

 

[Church_Militant]

No idols? Sounds to me like you worship the Bible!

I wouldn’t go that far. If I expect others to understand what I believe then I have to give them the same courtesy as I understand what they really believe.

If we take this approach, we make the same error in reasoning that JTBC has made with us.

Not knocking you though as I understand what you mean and recognize that you are being facetious.

 

[Church_Militant]

Earlier I attempted to leave this discussion b/c it has been too heated, but people continued to post to it - obligating me to respond. I have been repeatedly misrepresented, falsly accused, and the object of your anti-protestant hatred. This doesn’t include everyone, but a significant amount of posters do not simply disagree and discuss, but are hostile, defensive and offensive. I’ve no problem with disagreement, but I do not willfully participate in hateful confrontations. I prefer to be silent and not defensive when confronted with situations like this.

God Bless, and Lord have mercy on us.

Over and out…
:tiphat:

Have a long nice rest…You’ll be coming home to the faith someday and maybe you’ll understand then why the Catholics like me worked so hard to refute your errors because we value your soul as much as you do.

Just because I am merciless to your arguments does not mean that I am hateful…(I have not been), uncharitable, (Contrariwise I have endured as much hassle as you have in an effort to insure that you get the accurate and opposing points so that the Holy Spirit can then use that to convict you of your error and lead you home) and anti-whatever…when the fact is that none of that is true at all.

I bear you no hatred or ill will at all. I will, however, never, (God granting me His superabundant graces! ) allow errors like this one to go unopposed. The value of a soul is beyond our knowing.

May God have mercy on you and lead you in his truth.

 

[lak611]

Hold it… You tell Catholics that it’s forbidden for us to kneel before a statue to pray and yet you refuse to condemn Joshua for actually prostrating himself before a mere angel with a message (Gee, Mary didn’t even do that!). Yet according to your twisted interpretation of the passage, this qualifies as adoration.

JTBC never did answer my question. I asked if people in Asian cultures are worshipping each other when they bow, if people who bow to the Queen of England are committing idolatry, and if actors are worshipping their audience when they bow at the conclusion of a play.

 

[He_lives]

There are two problems with this statement. One reflects a “Sola Scriptura” error, where anything not found in ones Bible must be forbidden. This means that Christians should not be honoring the Sabbath Day on Sunday, and are “nowhere told” that God is a Trinity, and that we were out of order in formulating the canon of scripture because we are “nowhere told” what books should go into it. It is an erroneous premise upon which to start a debate.

Secondly, objects of worship are not the “focal point” in worship. God is the focal point in worship. Objects only serve to draw the mind, heart, and senses to God.

Don’t you think your handle is a bit disingenuous? Had you considered abandoning it and choosing another, such as JoytoBeJW or somthing? Your signature line states that you are unhappy about the Church, and your posts clearly indicate that you are not Catholic. The Bread and the Wine are not “ordinances”.

Perhaps this is just a semantics problem. For Catholics, these are all the same thing.

If you are able to do this, then why do you think Catholics cannot?

Oh I think you most certainly are!

You are also creating a false dichotomy, as if a person could not place a statue, and also make Jesus Lord of their Life.

I would suggest, then, that you refrain from using inanimate objects in prayer and worship. I would also suggest that you refrain from judging the hearts/motives/attitudes of those that do.

For you, there is. This is not the case for those of us who have “tasted of the heavenly gift” and enter into the holy of holies during Divine Liturgy. Icons pale at such times.

Perhaps you are suffering from the same weakness that St. Gemma had, in having a tendency to be too attached to objects. If you know what is right for you to do, and you fail to do it, it is a sin. However, what is it to you if God calls another to worship differently?

MOre power to you. I agree, it is better to throw out the plaster and wood than to fall into hell. If you are in danger of that, do so at once! But it is improper for you to insist that your own private devotion and call to holiness should be legislated to everyone.

I am new to this site and a Catholic. I was away from the Church for many years, the Lord caught my attention and brought me back. I read the bible, my faith started to grow until I was ready to really give myself to the Lord. As I have read and learned about our faith through the Caticism book and other documents given to me by the Church I noticed something that kept bothering me. All of our instructions as Catholics tell us that we are to be involved with the Word of God. In our documents the Church gives equal authority for tradition and scripture. I can understand this because in area’s that are not covered by the bible the head of the Church must make a ruling based on scripture prayer and wisdom. Unfortunately this topic is one that the bible is absolutly clear on. When I came back to the Church and I did my confesion, I confessed Idolotry. I thought that I just didn’t understand what I was supposed to be doing, but as I go through this site and here the responce of Catholics like yourself and research on my own, i find that a grave mistake has been made. Have no doubt. Read the entire bible Old and new testament. We should not be bowing down to any object weather it looks like something that is of earth or heaven. Just read what the Isrealites had to go through over and over again because they would bow to objects other than the true and living God. Read the commandments. Read the new testament. Saint Paul says that if you worship a object it is worship of demons. There is no way I could accept bowing a knee to an object, it would be a mortal sin. As I learn more and more reading the responses from our breatheren I see that there is something critically wrong. We must be ignorant of scripture or we would not allow this to occure. I may be a nobody and not a person that has spent there lives studing scripture, but you don’t need to be to know without a doubt that we should not bend a knee to any man made object. This is different than something that the bible is silent on and the Church makes a ruling based on tradition. This is clearly written throught the Bible and the Church does not have the authority to change or alter what was given by God.

 

[He_lives]

So was Joshua prostrating in reverence or was he bowing out of respect?

So is the Ark an exception or something?

The Ark was a dwelling place of God. That is why they were allowed to bow down. It was not because of the Ark but because God was dwelling in it. There is nothing in Catholic tradition or the bible that tells us that a image of a saint or cross is the dwelling place of God. That is the difference. Now someone please explane why we are told to bow before objects again???

 

[j1s2a3]

Pride is the first and greatest sin please study the seven deadly sins in more detail.Then after and only after this come back and lets talk basics.

 

[GreenLantern]

The Ark was a dwelling place of God. That is why they were allowed to bow down. It was not because of the Ark but because God was dwelling in it. There is nothing in Catholic tradition or the bible that tells us that a image of a saint or cross is the dwelling place of God. That is the difference. Now someone please explane why we are told to bow before objects again???

Where in the Bible does it say “Don’t bow to objects unless they’re the dwelling place of God”

Last I checked, bowing to a dwelling place isn’t the same as bowing to the inhabitant of the dwelling place. A person that bows to Queen Elizabeth when she is seated is not bowing to the Queen and her throne.

 

[po18guy]

Earlier I attempted to leave this discussion b/c it has been too heated, but people continued to post to it - obligating me to respond. I have been repeatedly misrepresented, falsly accused, and the object of your anti-protestant hatred. This doesn’t include everyone, but a significant amount of posters do not simply disagree and discuss, but are hostile, defensive and offensive. I’ve no problem with disagreement, but I do not willfully participate in hateful confrontations. I prefer to be silent and not defensive when confronted with situations like this. God Bless, and Lord have mercy on us. Over and out…
:tiphat:

First, your user name was not true. You branded yourself through this “apparent” deception. Second, you appear to be fundamentalist Evangelical. That is such a recent set of beliefs (1890 or so) that we must ask you why on earth you can hold to it. Some of it is 100% counter to Christ’s own words. Third, you accused over one billion people of idol worship. Fourth, you then make yourself the victim, after coming here and spewing accusations! What chutzpah! You have many praying that the Holy Spirit lead you to light.

May Easter blessings be yours.

 

[po18guy]

(Edited) I suggest heavy duty prayer for this blinded user who has fallen prey to the spirit of antichrist.

Merciful Lord in Heaven, we beseech Your Divine intervention in the life of JTBC, who has been lead astray from the truth. In Your mercy, send the Blessed Holy Spirit upon this lost sheep, that JTBC will be called to the fulness of truth. In attempting to lead this soul to Christ Jesus in the blessed Sacrament, we have encountered only vitriol and falsehoods in return. Lord, may the exchanges which took place cause reflection on both sides. Father, bless us in charity, that we may by our love, call souls to You. May the spirit of antichrist be repelled by Saint Michael the Archangel, whom we summon to our defense. Strengthen us to keep this soul in prayer, that hearts will soften to Your truth. We ask this through our Risen Lord Jesus Christ, Who sits at Your Right Hand. Amen! Alleluia!

 

[planter654]

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”

Pretty explicit. Not just graven images are prohibited, but any likeness of any thing. Do you carry money around? Do you have photos? Do you watch movies or TV? The list of likenesses is endless.

Of all places idols should not be is in our Catholic Church! The Catholic Church tells us onething but does another. A sin is a sin? A commandment of God is commandment of God! The Cathlolic Church will have to answer to God not us? If they say they know all truth, but twist the word of God to pleace themselves! The worship of creature rather than God!

That is why ST. Paul warns of " beware of idols and why the Bible from beginning to end warns, talks about idos over and over. Read the book of Revelation!

We would have to leave this world not to be around idols we are slaves to them are we not. But of all places they should not be in , is God’s House of prayer! We should not have them period. Lots of money has been made making these statues, crossess etc. And we bless them. This is abomination is it not?

The apostles died and were murdered for their faithfulness and obedience to God! They suffered, suffered, much, much for the spreading the gospels. Obedience, obedience to God’s word! I have no excuse.Trust in God.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

First, your user name was not true. You branded yourself through this “apparent” deception. Second, you appear to be fundamentalist Evangelical. That is such a recent set of beliefs (1890 or so) that we must ask you why on earth you can hold to it. Some of it is 100% counter to Christ’s own words. Third, you accused over one billion people of idol worship. Fourth, you then make yourself the victim, after coming here and spewing accusations! What chutzpah! You have many praying that the Holy Spirit lead you to light.

May Easter blessings be yours.

Do you know how the name given to the Passover by God came to be changed to EASTER? You will me amazed? Trust in God! Historians and History is recorded also!

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Pride is the first and greatest sin please study the seven deadly sins in more detail.Then after and only after this come back and lets talk basics.

YES! ANTHING OUTSIDE OF GOD, IS VANITY.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Pride is the first and greatest sin please study the seven deadly sins in more detail.Then after and only after this come back and lets talk basics.

YES! OUTSIDE OF GOD, IS VANITY!

GOD BLESS

 

[planter654]

The Ark was a dwelling place of God. That is why they were allowed to bow down. It was not because of the Ark but because God was dwelling in it. There is nothing in Catholic tradition or the bible that tells us that a image of a saint or cross is the dwelling place of God. That is the difference. Now someone please explane why we are told to bow before objects again???

But now Jesus Christ has come. God has a great plan of salvation. Jesus Christ is the “true tabernacle” we must all enter through! For Christ entered into the heavens the HOLIE of HOLY"s, not with the blood of animals, but with his own body and blood, with out blemish. The perfect scarifice that no one, no could ever do! Not even those who serve the altar could do that with their own blood for all needed to confess first of their sins! that is way it was done year after year! But now that Jesus Christ has come the Holy Tabernacle it is finished once and for all!

Jesus now sits at the right hand of God till all the gentles are made his footstool!

"It is finished once and for all! For Jesus would have to be continually scarificing over over. It is finished once and for all. The perfect scarifice " Once and for all, it is finished!

Idols cannot save you.
God Bless

God Bless

 

[VociMike]

Of all places idols should not be is in our Catholic Church!

Well duh! That’s why no Catholic church has idols, although many have statues and/or images.

The Catholic Church tells us onething but does another.

No, the Church says the truth and lives by the truth. But you have convinced yourself that you can understand the bible better than 2000 years of Catholicism can understand it. Talk about pride!

A commandment of God is commandment of God! The Cathlolic Church will have to answer to God not us? If they say they know all truth, but twist the word of God to pleace themselves!

Not sure what the thought is here. Probably something negative about the Church.

The worship of creature rather than God!

Now statues and images are creatures?! You’re all over the map here.