Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[teadough]

I don’t know why I bother to defend myself about this…

My BELIEF CHANGED! What don’t you understand about that??? And I you…

What I understand is that you never understood. What don’t you understand about that? You said “I don’t know why I bother to defend myself” You have not defended yourself. You have only given a “photo copy” of what a Catholic is. I don’t mean to sound mean. I know how certain words look in print but I will not sit here and let you think your are convincing anyone for fear that there are new people on CAF who are honestly seeking truth. You will not be the representative of the Catholic Faith who is speaking from experience.

Once again forgive me if I sound harsh. I don’t mean to. I am desperately praying for you and wish you the best in life. We love you and want you to be happy. We also stand our ground to defend our faith if needed. I am a servant of Jesus Christ and I will defend His Church to my death.

God Bless You My Friend. May Peace Be With YOU no matter what road you decide to go on.

 

[Stephen_C]

I won’t bother to copy and paste all the other posts that basically say the same thing.

Let me just say this: I know of people who live together before they are married - I know their intentions are good - yet the church admonishes their behaviour. I know of people who coddle their children - their intentions are good - but their behaviour is wrong. I know of people who are addicted to alcohol b/c they use it as medicine - their intentions for using it were good - but their remedy is wrong. I know of people who have had abortions - their intensions were good, but the church admonishes their “choice”.
I know married couples who avoid having children - their intentions are good, but the church admonishes their behaviour.

I could go on and on and on…

Intentions, no matter how good, do not justify an error. If you live in ignorance as to why something is wrong that is one thing, but many would prefer to live in ignorance than to discover their error and have to change.

If it is not an error, then everything is fine. No one is guilty of anything - and neither am I guilty b/c I chose to avoid what MIGHT be sin. However, if it IS an error, then I am wise to have avoided it, and those who gave consideration to it being an error but refused to find out for certain so they could remain in their error are guilty before God. I am not saying anyone here in particular fits into that category, but this is why I think it is an important discussion. It is the whole reason I’m even posting to this forum as I usually do not. If not remaining Catholic is an error, I need to know. I am not willfully ignorant.

I pray, for your sakes, you are right and that the practice is acceptable and pleasing to God.

Now I’d like to respond to some of the more pertinent points people have raised and get past the defensiveness (on both sides).

Again you just keep dancing. I choose to use all the tools in my toolbox when I pray. I choose to use all the tools in my toolbox with my walk with Jesus. Whatever it takes to become more focused on God, I will use. My faith is not a narrow one. I live each day (I try) to become closer to Jesus. I live each day to try to become more christ like. As long as I am focused on that, I am not fearful. I have Jesus as my focus, and my rock. Again do you know the heart of others? And you do not know mine.

God bless,
Stephen

 

[JustaServant]

When a church is devoid of symbols of worship, there is no reverance for God. True, God is omnipresent, not restricted to a time and place. However, for some, that means He is nowhere present. As a result, there is no sense of sacredness. True worship is the sense of a place of sacredness, not somebody’s back porch. The Jews of the OT understood that, as does the Catholic Church. Part of that symbolic worship are representations of art. If all symbols are idolatrous, why did God set up the Temple worship the way He did?
If God can inspire a book (involving ink and paper), why not representations of art (involving paint and stone)?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I am truly sorry that you feel that you were a practicing Catholic and I hope and pray that one day you will become one.

Then stop with the false accusations, stay on topic and give me the reasons why I ought to be one.

It helps me conjure Holy thoughts. Think about a picture you have of a family member. When you look at that picture can’t you imagine the moment it took place? Even the smells sometimes. Pictures can take us back in time and place us “in the moment” if we allow them to.

THis is more like it. Lets keep it a rational conversation please…

I am well aware of the Buddhist elements that have crept into Catholicism. I know how certain smells and images can “take us back” to mystical experiences. I am not interested in pursuing the altered states. Been there - done that! If the Holy Spirit abides in the person there is no need to look somewhere else for God.

As far as scripture goes…well, I would start with the old testament and see what God has to say. It’s funny how after the 10 commandment people are later instructed to build the Ark of the Covenant which is full of imagery. Keep going through the OT and you will find plenty more examples.

The Scriptures no where provide examples of God allowing people to create for themselves images/statues for worship/prayer. God has at times commanded them to create specific images/statues to decorate the temple and ark. He no where instructed the people to intentionally kneel before, pray before or light candles to any of those images. I’ve seen so many Catholic defenses of the practice of using statues and images that insinuate that the kneeling in front of, praying in front of etc. is accidental. I’ve seen it compared to kneeling by one’s bed or kneeling in front of a podium at church or happening to be kneeling to pray while someone is walking by in front of them (implying they are worshipping the person). What an irrational defense! I am talking about the INTENTIONAL posture of kneeling before, praying before, etc… an image/statue. I am sure the Israelites did at times posture themselves to pray in front of a statue, but not INTENTIONALLY so. If I am in a crowded place to pray and I happen to end up kneeling in front of clock, I am not now worshipping the clock. But if I go out of my way to kneel in front of and pray before clocks I definately have a problem.

So, PLEASE: Provide a Scripture - ANY Scripture - that depicts such actions. It should be easy since it is so full of examples as you say.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

What I understand is that you never understood. What don’t you understand about that? You said “I don’t know why I bother to defend myself” You have not defended yourself. You have only given a “photo copy” of what a Catholic is. I don’t mean to sound mean. I know how certain words look in print but I will not sit here and let you think your are convincing anyone for fear that there are new people on CAF who are honestly seeking truth. You will not be the representative of the Catholic Faith who is speaking from experience.

Once again forgive me if I sound harsh. I don’t mean to. I am desperately praying for you and wish you the best in life. We love you and want you to be happy. We also stand our ground to defend our faith if needed. I am a servant of Jesus Christ and I will defend His Church to my death.

I appreciate that, but we can we please keep the focus on the topic and not on me? Saying I wasn’t Catholic or whatever isn’t going to help me become one.

Thanks~

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Again you just keep dancing. I choose to use all the tools in my toolbox when I pray. I choose to use all the tools in my toolbox with my walk with Jesus. Whatever it takes to become more focused on God, I will use. My faith is not a narrow one. I live each day (I try) to become closer to Jesus. I live each day to try to become more christ like. As long as I am focused on that, I am not fearful. I have Jesus as my focus, and my rock. Again do you know the heart of others? And you do not know mine.

God bless,
Stephen

Neither does the church know the hearts of those who chose to live together before marriage - or the hearts of those who chose abortion… but it does judge the acts. Do you accuse your own church of being judgmental? In giving Catholicism consideration, should I not judge the ACTIONS I see in the church? The practices? The teachings?

Please stop being defensive and stay on topic. I don’t know why that is so difficult for everyone.

Peace~

 

[Stephen_C]

Neither does the church know the hearts of those who chose to live together before marriage - or the hearts of those who chose abortion… but it does judge the acts. Do you accuse your own church of being judgmental? In giving Catholicism consideration, should I not judge the ACTIONS I see in the church? The practices? The teachings?

Please stop being defensive and stay on topic. I don’t know why that is so difficult for everyone.

Peace~

She (Catholic Church) is a hospital for sinners.
I will pray for you.

God Bless,
Stephen

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

When a church is devoid of symbols of worship, there is no reverance for God.

Jesus prayed in the dessert - a place devoid of symbols. We are supposed to imitate Jesus. Please read “Cloud of Unknowing”

True, God is omnipresent, not restricted to a time and place. However, for some, that means He is nowhere present.

Then they should not be parading as Christians. If you are talking about spiritual dryness, however, I am quite familiar with it. Such a person would do well to heed St. John of the Cross’s advice and not try to force a sense of God’s presence through such practices. This is not how to get through the Dark Night.

As a result, there is no sense of sacredness. True worship is the sense of a place of sacredness, not somebody’s back porch.

Right, so why use the back porch to get that sense? Again you seem to be speaking about the Dark Night. There is nothing wrong with not sensing the sacred. It is a great test of faith. God withdraws our ability to sense His presence - it is then that He is closest and doing is greatest work! Like a child trying to walk and doesn’t realize his father is directly behind him ready to catch him if he starts to fall. The more one struggles to sense the sacred the less he will progress. Sometimes God gives spiritual consolations at the beginning of one’s journey, but then withdraws them so that we will discover unrest with everything but God. No image - not even nature - will quench such a thirst for God. Only God Himself (devoid of all our insufficient concepts of Him) can quench it, but not until the person is detached from everything: things, people, feelings of consolation, misconceptions of God, etc… And again, we are all called to this spiritual perfection, therefore, the seeker and lover of God will experience such a “dark night”. It should be the responsibility of the church to help us get through it. Instead I see it encouraging people to be content with only “milk” instead of “meat”. I’m sorry that sounds so horrible and probably very proud, and actually, it is a thought I’d like to expand on at some point in discussion here b/c I am not entirely convinced the church should only provide “meat”

The Jews of the OT understood that, as does the Catholic Church.

The Jews of the OT didn’t have the indwelling Spirit. Christianity cannot be compared to Judaism. That is exactly the problem I see with much of Catholicism. Many aspects of it are still stuck in the Old Covenant.

Part of that symbolic worship are representations of art. If all symbols are idolatrous, why did God set up the Temple worship the way He did?

I am content to obey His command not to create images. If Jesus commanded His church to do such things I would do them - no problem.

If God can inspire a book (involving ink and paper), why not representations of art (involving paint and stone)?

God’s “book” contains God’s divine thoughts. Man gives me no reason to believe his art is inspired by God, and man’s art does not contain God’s thoughts or presence.

Peace,

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

She (Catholic Church) is a hospital for sinners.
I will pray for you.

God Bless,
Stephen

Thank you.

And we are all priests. We should attempt to correct our brother’s errors.

 

[teadough]

I appreciate that, but we can we please keep the focus on the topic and not on me? Saying I wasn’t Catholic or whatever isn’t going to help me become one.

Thanks~

Once again. The people who are,in your opinion,worshiping and bowing to a statue as if it is living entity has been poorly Catechised and are in error. Nobody is claiming that every Catholic who walks into the Parish is right just because they appear to be going through the same motions as the others walking in front of them.

When I walk into God’s House I am genuflection to my Lord for the fact that I am a visitor and a guest in His House. Is the Lord Omnipresent? Yes!!! Can I have the sense that the Lord is right here in my living room while I type this? Yes!!! Is HIS BODY here? No!! Is it in His House Called the Catholic Church? Yes!!!

Trust me!! I am not calling you a liar when you give your examples. The Catholic Church is huge and has to be pruned from time to time. Many of these dead branches tend to cling to the tree that they were cut from. Think of a tree in your yard that has that one dead limb way,way at the top. Does this dead limb act as a representative of the living tree that has it’s roots firmly planted? No. It only appears to be an object that was at one time a limb. This same limb will cling to the tree until a good wind or storm sweeps by. At that point the tree will be a true representative of what a Full living tree is. The same goes for the Catholic Church when, in the end, all of it’s living members or the members who are asleep in Christ will be the Representative of what Full Communion with the Church was and is.

Is there Salvation outside of the Church and can these dead limbs which have been pruned find that?
Yes.

 

[bookgirl32]

Joy:

I am well aware of the Buddhist elements that have crept into Catholicism. I know how certain smells and images can “take us back” to mystical experiences. I am not interested in pursuing the altered states. Been there - done that! If the Holy Spirit abides in the person there is no need to look somewhere else for God.

Whoa, where’d you get that out of Teadough’s post about a picture taking you back? Talk about putting words in somebody’s mouth.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Right. Not to make any likeness of any thing in heaven, or on earth, or in the water. Do you have any likeness of any thing in your life? If so, why?

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The key is “make unto thee”. What does this mean? It means you make it for your own purpose. Then vs 5 tells us why. Please do not deny that the church does not discourage the practice of bowing down to them. How many churches have kneelers and candles RIGHT IN FRONT OF the statues…

Furthermore, now that God has become man, it is quite impossible for any Christian to avoid forming at some point a mental image of Jesus Christ in his mind. Since a mental image is also a likeness, then this too must be idolatry.

I don’t try to conjure up a mental image of God, and I do not believe we have any accurate depictions of God in art. Only those who saw Jesus with their own eyes can do such a thing and it is ridiculous to assert that those who did see him were commiting idolatry.

Peace,

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Once again. The people who are,in your opinion,worshiping and bowing to a statue as if it is living entity has been poorly Catechised and are in error.

Then the Franciscan monks at my nearby friary are in error as they put kneelers and candles right in front of the statues.

Nobody is claiming that every Catholic who walks into the Parish is right just because they appear to be going through the same motions as the others walking in front of them.

When I walk into God’s House I am genuflection to my Lord for the fact that I am a visitor and a guest in His House. Is the Lord Omnipresent? Yes!!! Can I have the sense that the Lord is right here in my living room while I type this? Yes!!! Is HIS BODY here? No!! Is it in His House Called the Catholic Church? Yes!!!

There is still quite a bit of difference between recognizing God’s omnipresence and intentionally kneeling and praying in front of an image - the main one being that the latter is forbidden by God.

Trust me!! I am not calling you a liar when you give your examples. The Catholic Church is huge and has to be pruned from time to time. Many of these dead branches tend to cling to the tree that they were cut from. Think of a tree in your yard that has that one dead limb way,way at the top. Does this dead limb act as a representative of the living tree that has it’s roots firmly planted? No. It only appears to be an object that was at one time a limb. This same limb will cling to the tree until a good wind or storm sweeps by. At that point the tree will be a true representative of what a Full living tree is. The same goes for the Catholic Church when, in the end, all of it’s living members or the members who are asleep in Christ will be the Representative of what Full Communion with the Church was and is.

I see what you are saying, but the church that claims infallibility has explicitly encouraged the use of images in worship and private devotion. It is written (I admit I don’t remember where precisely) by the church magesterium. So this is not merely a matter of some bad limbs but a matter of the trunk so to speak. It is things like this, and many others, that when put together, lead me to believe I am better off worshipping somewhere without all the heresy (if in fact that is what these things I see are).

Peace, and thanks for your thoughtful and respectful post.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Joy:
Whoa, where’d you get that out of Teadough’s post about a picture taking you back? Talk about putting words in somebody’s mouth.

K, maybe I jumped the gun. I thought that was what was being referred to. There are many “techniques” used to try to acheive “contemplation” - many are borrowed from Buddhism. But that is another thread altogether…

Sorry if I misunderstood the point.

If I did, maybe someone can clarify what is meant by taking you back?

 

[ElizabethPH]

Saint Michael the Archangel,

Defend us in battle

Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;

May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;

And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,

By the power of God , thrust into hell

Satan and all evil spirits

Who wander through the world

For the ruin of souls. Amen

 

[Church_Militant]

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The key is “make unto thee”. What does this mean? It means you make it for your own purpose. Then vs 5 tells us why. Please do not deny that the church does not discourage the practice of bowing down to them. How many churches have kneelers and candles RIGHT IN FRONT OF the statues… That’s one of the most butchered interpretations that I’ve ever seen. You take the passage apart when it is clear that what God is forbidding is what I have highlighted in red. He’s not talking about the images, He’s forbidding their adoration, something that no faithful Catholic ever does, (in spite of the a-C allegations put forth).

Just one more example of the n-C error of Sola Scriptura and their belief that anyone can pick up a Bible and rightly interpret what they read. Especially without reference to what the Church has believed and taught for the 2,000 years it has been around. If images are so bad then why did the persecuted church have them all over the catacombs where they hid out and worshiped?

 

[teadough]

JoyToBeCatholic;Then the Franciscan monks at my nearby friary are in error as they put kneelers and candles right in front of the statues.

Why don’t you ask them what is taking place instead of claiming you know what their intentions are?

There is still quite a bit of difference between recognizing God’s omnipresence and intentionally kneeling and praying in front of an image - the main one being that the latter is forbidden by God. I see what you are saying, but the church that claims infallibility has explicitly encouraged the use of images in worship and private devotion. It is written (I admit I don’t remember where precisely) by the church magesterium. So this is not merely a matter of some bad limbs but a matter of the trunk so to speak. It is things like this, and many others, that when put together, lead me to believe I am better off worshipping somewhere without all the heresy (if in fact that is what these things I see are).

I am getting ready to pray the Rosary. During this time I am going to reflect on the life os Jesus. I will be looking at His life through the eyes of Mary,the Apostles(even the one who betrays,why? because I am a sinner who falls),mine,and GOD. Sometimes when I pray the Rosary I can feel as though the outside word is not there. I am not equating this with your perspective of Buddhist meditations because I am not trying to “free my mind”. I am putting myself at the foot of Jesus and watching Him. I am seeing His joyful days. Some days I am watching Him in agony. Sometimes I tremble at what took place,while other days when I pray the Rosary I am relieved to know that He had a human nature and he could feel pain and joy. He understands exactly the way I feel at any given moment. Sometimes I have days where I am so distorted. My thoughts are on me and the world. Praying the Rosary help me forget about these trivial things and focus on what is important. It helps me to realized that things are really not so bad. It helps me with my Faith because I take the focus off of me and I put it on my Lord. I am reminded that I am nothing without Him

equating the Rosary to any sort “mind opening” mediations is a false assumption as is your version of “idol worship”. I know from first hand experience what it means to “open my mind”. I know the feeling of pure bliss(nirvana) whenever the 7th Chakra is fully opened. It feels good and it feels safe. It seems right to willingly open these channels. It is paganism at its highest. But the thing about paganism is this. Some people do find God. Think about the Magi. We know from history that the Magi were Pagans. They used strange ways and ideas to seek out what is needed to be seeked. They went searching. What they found was God. Who they found was Jesus Christ. Are all pagans on the road towards Jesus? Absolutely not!!!

I know you did not even mention the Rosary. I just wanted to share my experience because…well,I just love to talk about the Rosary and how one can get their focus on Jesus.

If you feel you need to leave the Catholic Church then go ahead. Maybe you are seeking and feel in your heart that you are truly making the right decision. Maybe it is the right decision. Maybe God had bigger plans. Maybe God is sending you out with full intentions of bringing you back. Maybe you will bring other back with you. But then again,you may find what you think you are looking for. Who am I to say. I just pray that God keeps you safe.

In Christ, Tim

 

[po18guy]

Ok, let’s see if we can remain sober and logical in our discussion about idolatry - specifically pertaining (but not limited to) the use of statues in worship…

You still trying to “save” Catholics? Where do Evangelicals learn this stuff? No statue worship. Next question.

 

[Church_Militant]

Then the Franciscan monks at my nearby friary are in error as they put kneelers and candles right in front of the statues.

Answered above. No one is adoring any images there.

There is still quite a bit of difference between recognizing God’s omnipresence and intentionally kneeling and praying in front of an image - the main one being that the latter is forbidden by God.

Not true. Only if one chooses to accept your butchered and twisted interpretation of a passage of the Word of God.

I see what you are saying, but the church that claims infallibility has explicitly encouraged the use of images in worship and private devotion. It is written (I admit I don’t remember where precisely) by the church magesterium. So this is not merely a matter of some bad limbs but a matter of the trunk so to speak.

Which I think is better than some broken off twig, (you) and a few others like you trying to offer some twisted and butchered interpretation that seeks to indict the Church that Christ Himself instituted for something that patently does not happen in the church. But you don’t wanna hear that because it pulls the teeth out of your a-C propaganda.

It is things like this, and many others, that when put together, lead me to believe I am better off worshipping somewhere without all the heresy (if in fact that is what these things I see are).

There is no heresy of any kind in authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching.

But there is the problem of the definitive and fundamental heresy of Sola Scriptura which causes seriously messed up interpretations like this one and the myriad of others that cascade down from it and the divisions that it causes even among its own adherents.

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

 

[bookgirl32]

K, maybe I jumped the gun. I thought that was what was being referred to. There are many “techniques” used to try to acheive “contemplation” - many are borrowed from Buddhism. But that is another thread altogether…

Sorry if I misunderstood the point.

If I did, maybe someone can clarify what is meant by taking you back?

Let’s see. I just got married a year and a half ago. I loved the day, but it was a blur. I look at my pictures to focus my thinking a little bit on what different things I want to remember out of the day. But that’s not the best example.

I’ll use this. I love my baby son. Sometimes I just like to sit there and think about what a miracle he is. Sometimes it’s so hard to believe that God would “loan” me this amazing creature, and how he chose to do it is amazing too! SOMETIMES I like to look at him when I think about this b/c it just makes the thought that much more concrete. So I’ll sit and just look at him sometimes when he’s playing and think about it. But, sometimes he’s sleeping. And I still like to think about it, but he’s a baaaaaad sleeper, and there’s no way I want to go in there and wake him up. So, I’ll look up on my wall, where I have a picture of him hanging. I’ll smile at the picture. Sometimes I even say “I love you” right then and there when I’m looking at the picture. My son is upstairs in his bed, do you really think I think I’m saying I love you to a picture? I’m saying it to my son, but I can’t see him at the moment, and the picture is right there and it’s making me think about him to look at it, so I say “I love you”, or “you’re the cutest baby ever born”, but do you really think I’m saying all this to a piece of paper and a wooden frame? My feelings for him can be brought about just by thinking about him, but looking at the picture just makes me feel them a little bit more concretely. Looking at him himself would make me feel them even MORE concretely. All of this doesn’t mean I can’t think of him without seeing him visually or any visual representation of him, I just like to. It’s just a preference. Something I like to do. And I don’t think that I HAVE to think about him more concretely either.