Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Apples and oranges. So you’re saying that the Catholic Church teaches hundreds of different conflicting doctrines? That it produces hundreds of conflicting Catechisms, all teaching different things?

Again -diverting the topic. If you want to discuss this or truly try to understand my p.o.v. about it see the circular argument thread. It has already been discussed AT LENGTH there.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Joy>Every single post someone makes to the contrary, you refute, with your own twisting of the truth to suit your own needs.

This is how I learn. Even if I see validity in the arguments I will continue to play the devils advocate until I have exhausted anything I see to support my logic.

Have you spoken with your priest?

I’ve spoken to many for many years.

This thread could go on for 1000 pages and solve nothing.

Not true at all. I’ve often stepped away from a conversation, spent weeks praying about it and then changed my mind!

You are acting like a troll…sorry but you are. I won’t be responding further to you in this thread. I know a troll when I see one.

Good day.

Sorry to hear that. Maybe apologetics is not for you?

Regardless, God Bless~

IHF

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Ok, this thread is full of heat. I’m backing off now too. Besides, it is taking up way too much time at this point.

Thanks all for your contributions! And no hard feelings :grouphug:

Bless You All!

 

[GreenLantern]

That may be the intention but the action is a clear violation of the command “you shall not bow to them”.

This is getting redundant.

And as Joshua bowed to God in the presence of an angel, Catholics bow before God in the presence of an icon of a saint.
1 Sam. 5:1-6:

1 After the Philistines had captured the ark of God, they took it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. 2 Then they carried the ark into Dagon’s temple and set it beside Dagon. 3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD! They took Dagon and put him back in his place. 4 But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD! His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained. 5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon’s temple at Ashdod step on the threshold.

Now we can assume that this is talking about an idol of Dagon and not the actual entity known as Dagon (whether Canaanite or Lovecraftian). If bowing before the Ark of the Covenant (which is an object just like icons) is a sin to God then why would God make it so that an idol of another god would make an offense to Him?
Would God of made it so that the idol of Dagon would have a blaspheme to God inscribed on him? Would he make it so that Dagon would be stepping on the Ark? Of course not!
God made it so that the idol was bowing to the Ark and in the act be submitting to the one true God even though the Ark is not God. And thus if one bows in the presence of say an icon they are submitting to God, not the icon.

 

[IAmEdmund]

Please stop being defensive and stay on topic. I don’t know why that is so difficult for everyone.

We defend when attacked, which is clearly your intent here. You do not desire to hear truth from the majority, but you want to stir trouble with those that have NO problem with st6aues, images and iconagraohy. You dance around issues, and preach as though we were all going to hell because we light a candle before a statue.

Your decision to become Menonite is wrong, you have chosen to go down this path of accusation against Mother Church, and you want others to go with you. I will pray for your soul as your actions clearly show your hate for the Catholic Church and its truths, which you have willfully chosen to abandoned.

 

[GreenLantern]

Ok, this thread is full of heat. I’m backing off now too. Besides, it is taking up way too much time at this point.

Thanks all for your contributions! And no hard feelings :grouphug:

Bless You All!

Yeah I can know what it’s like to be in a forum that as a whole disagrees with you. It can be hard…
I’ve been the token “TOOL OF THE BOURGEOISIE” on Communists forums…

 

[wanner47]

Worship is quite different than using money, don’t you think? God was specific about what kind of images and why it was forbidden. The entire OT is filled with examples of the Israelites breaking the commandment so it is quite clear from those examples precisely what it is that God dislikes. People very well may have intended to be worshipping the OTG when they worshipped idols. Do you really think their intention was to worship an imagined god? For instance - the golden calf: certainly to the people the calf represented God or at least some of His attributes. They acknowledged God’s power and mercy in delivering them from bondage as they cried out in worship.

Um… what? Where in the OT do you read that people were worshiping God while bowing to the golden calf??? That’s certainly not in my Bible!

What I’m getting from you is that it’s okay to use images in everyday life, but not as ***aids ***to prayer or worship.

The problem is, **Scripture doesn’t make that distinction. **

Exodus 20:4-5, KJV: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Scripture says we should not “bow down thyself to them, or serve them” – and I agree. We should NOT worship inanimate objects, idols, statues, etc. But the text says ***nothing ***about using statues, etc. as ***aids ***to the worship of God.

In fact, just a few chapters later, God commands the following:
*
Exodus 25:18-22 (KJV): And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. *

Why would God command the Israelites to put **STATUES ** of cherubim on the ARK OF THE COVENANT – which is meant to be a dwelling place of GOD HIMSELF – if it is idolatrous to use statues as aids to worship? When the Jews bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant, wouldn’t they, by your criteria, be committing idolatry?

Ok, so you maybe see some validity to my reasoning and so now your defense is that I’m not infallible?

No, that’s not it at all. I’m afraid you misinterpreted my response.

You said:

The answers are all right there without a church’s infallible interpretation.

So my question is – if the Church’s interpretation is fallible, yours is any better?

 

[bookgirl32]

I like your example, but I don’t know if it is a good parallel. You aren’t treating the picture with the same reverence and honor you would to God: bowing etc. to it. And you are not using it during worship. I have a personal dislike for having photos around the house, so maybe I can’t appreciate it the way you seem to.

Blessings~

Well, thanks for liking the example anyway. Do you think when a singer bows to the audience at the end of a performance that they’re worshipping the audience?

 

[bookgirl32]

That may be the intention but the action is a clear violation of the command “you shall not bow to them”.

This is getting redundant.

I’m saying this with all respect, honestly. Your habit of changing what you do and don’t agree with, even within this thread, is getting a little redundant. The intention is what mattered with the angel, not the action, but with us it’s the action that matters, not the intention. How is that fair?

 

[VociMike]

Maybe you and I would do best to agree to disagree. You aren’t contributing anything new at this point, are diverting the topic and being sarcastic.

Peace~

Actually, my last post asked some questions that go to the very heart of the matter. To whit:

1. Have you literally gouged out an eye, or cut off a hand? (this goes to the question of whether every command in scripture is to be taken literally, and if not, why not?)
2. Are Christians still under OT Law? Which OT commands are we to obey, and which are we not to obey? And how do you know the answer to that question? (this goes to the question of selectively taking those OT laws which are useful to beat on Catholicism with, while ignoring the others)
3. Since you appeal to Christ in defending your use of likenesses, is there any New Testament prohibition on statues (and icons)? Not idols, but statues and icons? (Since you defended your use of money with images by noting that Christ did not condemn it, I am asking why we cannot take the same approach - lack of condemnation by Christ - with statues and icons)

So, my last post definitely brought something new to the discussion, and nothing sarcastic. And you didn’t answer any of my substantive points.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

And as Joshua bowed to God in the presence of an angel, Catholics bow before God in the presence of an icon of a saint.

There is a world of difference between intentionally posturing oneself in front of an image to worship God and falling down in the presence of a heavenly messenger. I don’t see God condemning people for having done such things - admonish, yes, as was done to John by the angel in revelations and as Peter did to Cornelius. But God was clearly angry with the Israelites’ idolatry. You may say they had no concept of the OTG when they did so, but that is illogical in my mind. Afterall, He had just showed His miraculous power to them.

Now we can assume that this is talking about an idol of Dagon and not the actual entity known as Dagon (whether Canaanite or Lovecraftian). If bowing before the Ark of the Covenant (which is an object just like icons) is a sin to God then why would God make it so that an idol of another god would make an offense to Him?

Again, this is a world of difference. The Ark WAS sacred - not fashioned by man’s own design for his own purposes, but commanded by God for God’s purposes. They were commanded to treat it with utmost reverence. They weren’t even allowed to touch it. How can you compare this to a man-made, self-serving statue???

And I am the one accused of dancing here??

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

We defend when attacked, which is clearly your intent here. You do not desire to hear truth from the majority, but you want to stir trouble with those that have NO problem with st6aues, images and iconagraohy. You dance around issues, and preach as though we were all going to hell because we light a candle before a statue.

I have done no such thing. I understand being touchy when you feel threatened. This place wreaks of hatred and false accusation and may the good Lord have mercy on you!

Your decision to become Menonite is wrong, you have chosen to go down this path of accusation against Mother Church, and you want others to go with you. I will pray for your soul as your actions clearly show your hate for the Catholic Church and its truths, which you have willfully chosen to abandoned.

More false accusation. You can’t handle a rational discussion that challenges your faith. I understand. I pray you’ll follow that unrest and find the truth.

You have driven me all the farther into my convictions and away from the church - not b/c of your hatred, but b/c your defensiveness and failure at showing good evidence that I should break the 2nd commandment is proof to me that even you realize that there is no real excuse, and what the church has taught you that you believe is just that - an excuse…

Peace~

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Yeah I can know what it’s like to be in a forum that as a whole disagrees with you.

I don’t mind being disagreed with, but all of you obviously do. Do you really think I thought you’d agree??? Oh, yeah - I came here expecting a CATHOLIC MESSAGE BOARD to side with obviously non-Catholic thought

I don’t like hateful confrontation and that is why I need to cease doing this.

Peace~

 

[guanophore]

To say that scripture “would not exist apart” from the Church is false.

God knew it was going to exist before the Catholic Church even came to be, don’t you think? Not till all the gentles are in.
Bible came into being by the power of God!

Your are right the Bible books, gospels were put together by the Catholic Church, Oh! how God works in mysterious ways!

Thereforth the Catholic Church as no excuse for not obeying or knowing God’s word, don’t you think?

A very little child of God

Well, since God worked through Catholics to write the NT, and then the Church to gather and canonize it, it is difficult to say what might have been different if He had chosen to preserve the inspired-inerrant words in another way. My point is that it is not appropriate to separate the Scriptures from the sacred tradition from whence they came. Of course you are right, that the Word of God is to be obeyed no matter what form it comes.

Protestants usually think that Catholics done obey “God’s Word” because they take the Scripture out of context. The Catholic Church is the context. It is a Catholic book.

No, I am trying to discuss what I consider an error. I have made no judgment on anyone’s hearts at all.

To what purpose, then? Clearly you have made up your mind…if you are not here to pursuade others to join you then what is your point?

I never sat in the pew judging others. I judged myself b/c I was one who knelt in front of, lit candles to and prayed before statues… I am speaking from not only personal experience as a once-practicing Catholic, but also using Catholic saints to clarify the reasoning that has led me to believe it is an error.

I am glad you got over it. These comments of yours seemed to me like they were judging others. Whenever I see the word “should” it comes across to me as though one is telling another how they ought to behave, think, or believe:
"JoyToBeCatholic:

If you were to give up everything you would abandon such practices as accumalting relics, sacramentals, statues, etc.

I highly doubt the early, apostolic church needed images and art to draw the mind to heaven. And still today, the regenerated in Christ should have no such need. They are distractions at the very least. Even nature itself pales in comparison to the Almighty.
Ok, I should rather say I myself would not do it. It does make me uncomfortable that others do it b/c I don’t know why they feel the need to do it. I just have this aweful memory in my mind of my mother pulling out the wallet-photos everytime she’d run into someone so she could show us off. Appearance is very important in my family. I have to question why anyone would do it.

Sorry if that was a projection. But I seriously don’t understand the purpose of doing it. I can see having photos at home so we can look back and remember loved ones who have passed on or show future generations who their family is.

Those beliefs don’t have to be present for it to be an idol. You give the statue the same treatment and honor you would give only to God. ANYTHING you do that with is an idol.

You seem to be assuming that people are giving what is due to only to God to a statue. Since you cannot read their hearts, isnt’ that a judgement on your part?

JoyToBeCatholic:

Unbelievable. Please visit the Defenders of the Catholic Faith message board and ask them if I didn’t know my Catholic faith before I had doubts. If they didn’t think I did they had an odd way of showing it. And I voluntarily left that board b/c my doubting caused a huge ruckus.

Oh, I think I have read enough thanks.

I didn’t want to be considered evangelizing them so I voluntarily left. I am discussing my p.o.v. for my own sake. If someone gains something from the discussion that is good, but I’m not here to criticize. I want to test my convictions before I get baptized into the Mennonite church. If you had charity you would present good, thoughtful conversation so as to win me back to the f.o.t. you believe the CC possesses and be a light to others who are watching the conversation (more potential Catholic converts). So in essence I am here for selfish reasons. This is not my preferred avenue for evangelization. In fact, I very often wonder if it is the best avenue to pursue testing my conviction b/c I hate misunderstandings like this.

No, in charity, I can see that you had your mind made up before you came. Having had a similar sojourn in the Anabaptist/Mennonite communities that greately sharpened by faith, I would not discourage you. I am only asking that you be tolerant of those who believe and practice differently.

You come across as though everyone is in a state of idolatry who does the things that you did, because you have concluded that it was idolatry for you. If you know what is right for you to do, and you don’t do it, for you, it is a sin.

 

[wanner47]

Again, this is a world of difference. The Ark WAS sacred - not fashioned by man’s own design for his own purposes, but commanded by God for God’s purposes. They were commanded to treat it with utmost reverence. They weren’t even allowed to touch it. How can you compare this to a man-made, self-serving statue???

And I am the one accused of dancing here??

But why would God say, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth,” and then command Moses to make a brass serpent, and command the Jews to make likenesses of angels with which to adorn the Ark? Doesn’t that seem contradictory to you?

 

[GreenLantern]

There is a world of difference between intentionally posturing oneself in front of an image to worship God and falling down in the presence of a heavenly messenger. I don’t see God condemning people for having done such things - admonish, yes, as was done to John by the angel in revelations and as Peter did to Cornelius. But God was clearly angry with the Israelites’ idolatry. You may say they had no concept of the OTG when they did so, but that is illogical in my mind. Afterall, He had just showed His miraculous power to them.

So was Joshua prostrating in reverence or was he bowing out of respect?

Again, this is a world of difference. The Ark WAS sacred - not fashioned by man’s own design for his own purposes, but commanded by God for God’s purposes. They were commanded to treat it with utmost reverence. They weren’t even allowed to touch it. How can you compare this to a man-made, self-serving statue???

So is the Ark an exception or something?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Um… what? Where in the OT do you read that people were worshiping God while bowing to the golden calf??? That’s certainly not in my Bible!

Why would you believe they had no concept of the OTG after all He had done?

What I’m getting from you is that it’s okay to use images in everyday life, but not as ***aids ***to prayer or worship.

It is obviously okay with Jesus, so it’s okay with me. However, he has expressly forbidden us to treat statues in the way that the church encourages us to by putting kneelers in front of them and such. I don’t care if some of you can do it with a good intention or not. I hope God will excuse the action based on the intention, but I’d be willing to bet that many have fallen into idolatry b/c of the practice. It can be very subtle and very deceptive. I prefer to avoid sin at all costs and appreciate a church that leads people to do the same.

The problem is, **Scripture doesn’t make that distinction. **

Yes it does, when it tells you no to bow to statues…

Scripture says we should not “bow down thyself to them, or serve them” – and I agree. We should NOT worship inanimate objects, idols, statues, etc. But the text says ***nothing ***about using statues, etc. as ***aids ***to the worship of God.

Ok, well in using it as an aid you are bowing down to it, so this is obviously an offense against the command.

In fact, just a few chapters later, God commands the following:

Show me where He commands the Christian church to make statues. And show me where the Israelites used those statues as aids or bowed to them.

Why would God command the Israelites to put **STATUES **of cherubim on the ARK OF THE COVENANT – which is meant to be a dwelling place of GOD HIMSELF – if it is idolatrous to use statues as aids to worship?

God didn’t say to use the statues as an aid. Perhaps it is a sign to them and others of God’s presence? But to assume it was to be an aid in prayer and that people bowed in front of them (intentionally) is QUITE a stretch.

When the Jews bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant, wouldn’t they, by your criteria, be committing idolatry?

I already answered this.

So my question is – if the Church’s interpretation is fallible, yours is any better?

I look to God instead of to man for interpretation just as I do in guidance about everything in my life. If I saw evidence that the CC was faithful I’d value its opinion far more.

 

[bookgirl32]

Perhaps it is a sign to them and others of God’s presence?

So that’s okay?

 

[bookgirl32]

I look to God instead of to man for interpretation just as I do in guidance about everything in my life. If I saw evidence that the CC was faithful I’d value its opinion far more.

How are you sure that the interpretation you have is what God gave you? And if you quote me that the Holy Spirit gave it to you then what about the thousands of other denominations that believe the same thing as you do about the Holy Spirit giving personal interpretation that may have a different one?

 

[wanner47]

Why would you believe they had no concept of the OTG after all He had done?

That doesn’t answer my question. Where in the Bible does it say that the Israelites were actually worshiping God while bowing down to the golden calf?

It is obviously okay with Jesus, so it’s okay with me. However, he has expressly forbidden us to treat statues in the way that the church encourages us to by putting kneelers in front of them and such.

Could you cite the verse of Scripture where Jesus says this, please?

I don’t care if some of you can do it with a good intention or not. I hope God will excuse the action based on the intention, but I’d be willing to bet that many have fallen into idolatry b/c of the practice. It can be very subtle and very deceptive. I prefer to avoid sin at all costs and appreciate a church that leads people to do the same. Yes it does, when it tells you no to bow to statues…Ok, well in using it as an aid you are bowing down to it, so this is obviously an offense against the command.

Only if you’re intending to worship the **statue **and not **what the statue represents **(i.e., God).

Show me where He commands the Christian church to make statues.

Show me where He commands the Christian church to NOT make statues.

And show me where the Israelites used those statues as aids or bowed to them.

The images of Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. When they were bowing before the Ark, they were also bowing before those statues.

God didn’t say to use the statues as an aid. Perhaps it is a sign to them and others of God’s presence? But to assume it was to be an aid in prayer and that people bowed in front of them (intentionally) is QUITE a stretch.

What is the purpose of the statues, then? Why would God command these likenesses to be made? If He was against ALL statues, regardless of the purpose, it seems an odd command to make.

I already answered this. I look to God instead of to man for interpretation just as I do in guidance about everything in my life. If I saw evidence that the CC was faithful I’d value its opinion far more.

Okay… so what guarantee do I have that you’re getting (and interpreting) God’s guidance correctly? How do I know it’s not Satan influencing you?

In other words, what makes you more trustworthy for Scriptural guidance than the Church?