Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[IAmEdmund]

No idols? Sounds to me like you worship the Bible!

Sola scripture will do that to you.

 

[guanophore]

Again, hoping to put an end to this conversation for the sake of peace. I think too much has already been said.

Blessings~

I am pleased to see that you have come to some degree of enlightenment, at least about your relations, if not the topic.
It is generally disturbing to the peace to make false accusations toward your brethren.

I am new to this site and a Catholic. I was away from the Church for many years, the Lord caught my attention and brought me back. I read the bible, my faith started to grow until I was ready to really give myself to the Lord. As I have read and learned about our faith through the Caticism book and other documents given to me by the Church I noticed something that kept bothering me. All of our instructions as Catholics tell us that we are to be involved with the Word of God. In our documents the Church gives equal authority for tradition and scripture. I can understand this because in area’s that are not covered by the bible the head of the Church must make a ruling based on scripture prayer and wisdom. Unfortunately this topic is one that the bible is absolutly clear on. When I came back to the Church and I did my confesion, I confessed Idolotry. I thought that I just didn’t understand what I was supposed to be doing, but as I go through this site and here the responce of Catholics like yourself and research on my own, i find that a grave mistake has been made. Have no doubt. Read the entire bible Old and new testament. We should not be bowing down to any object weather it looks like something that is of earth or heaven. Just read what the Isrealites had to go through over and over again because they would bow to objects other than the true and living God. Read the commandments. Read the new testament. Saint Paul says that if you worship a object it is worship of demons. There is no way I could accept bowing a knee to an object, it would be a mortal sin. As I learn more and more reading the responses from our breatheren I see that there is something critically wrong. We must be ignorant of scripture or we would not allow this to occure. I may be a nobody and not a person that has spent there lives studing scripture, but you don’t need to be to know without a doubt that we should not bend a knee to any man made object. This is different than something that the bible is silent on and the Church makes a ruling based on tradition. This is clearly written throught the Bible and the Church does not have the authority to change or alter what was given by God.

Welcome to the forum. I agree that one should not bow the knee to any object. If one cannot kneel beside one’s bed and pray without the sense that one is bending the knee to the bed, then it would be better to stand. If one cannot go to the “altar call” and kneel in front of a podium without the feeling they are bowing unto it, then one should stand. In the Eastern Rites, we do not have statues, and we do not kneel at all.

 

[planter654]

Thank you.

So you are going *against *Scripture with this belief? Why not adhere to what Scripture *actually *says? I don’t understand how you can, in one post, lecture Catholics for behaving unScripturally and then in the next post say, “Scripture says that, BUT I believe…”

So Scripture says in one place not to make any likeness of anything, and Scripture says in another place that Jesus took a coin with a likeness on it and used it to teach, etc. Isn’t this an instance of the Bible contradicting itself? If so, how can anything in it (the Bible) be true? If not, how do you explain the contradiction?

Your best bet is to PM the admins and ask for a name change.

The coin had a image on it. We are created in “God’s image”. God who created us. Thereforth render onto God what belongs to God.

God Bless

 

[wanner47]

The coin had a image on it. We are created in “God’s image”. God who created us. Thereforth render onto God what belongs to God.

God Bless

Well, God is the creator of everything, thus EVERY created image, statue, etc. is of something that also belongs to God. So when we use statues and etc. as aids to prayer and worship, we are rendering unto God what belongs to God.

Perfect logic! Thanks, Planter! Glad to see you finally understand the Catholic POV.

 

[Lampo]

“Show me the icons that you venerate, that I may be able to understand your faith.”
– St. John Damascene

St. John Damascene (676-749)
John was the last of the Greek Fathers. He vigorously opposed the Iconoclast persecution. He is regarded as the first theological encyclopedist, and as the prince of Greek hymnodists.

 

[planter654]

Well, God is the creator of everything, thus EVERY created image, statue, etc. is of something that also belongs to God. So when we use statues and etc. as aids to prayer and worship, we are rendering unto God what belongs to God.

Perfect logic! Thanks, Planter! Glad to see you finally understand the Catholic POV.

Not quite perfect, I meant his created human beings I meant, we were created in God’s image.

God bless

 

[wanner47]

Not quite perfect, I meant his created human beings I meant, we were created in God’s image.

God bless

Right, but if we create statues of living things that God has created in His image, the statues are of His creations. And He has also gifted us with the talent and ability to create statues, icons, etc., so they belong to Him in that way as well – especially if the artists intend to use their talents to give glory to God, as so many Christian artists do.

 

[planter654]

Right, but if we create statues of living things that God has created in His image, the statues are of His creations. And He has also gifted us with the talent and ability to create statues, icons, etc., so they belong to Him in that way as well – especially if the artists intend to use their talents to give glory to God, as so many Christian artists do.

I am sorry, I can’t speak for God or do I know his thoughts.

God Bless

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

This time I won’t answer the continuing false accusations . They aren’t worth my bother. And truly - they speak for themselves. If someone feels accused, perhaps it is b/c their conscience is bothered.

Without going through the entire thread again to re-evaluate my posts, I will admit that all my points are not good examples in answer to your questions, however, make no mistake about this:

The commandment says not to bow to or serve a carved image or any other image.

My parish has a kneeler right in front of the Eucharistic tabernacle. If I kneel there to pray do you consider that to be idolatry as well?

Those who kneel there are doing so b/c they believe the tabernacle contains bread transformed into Jesus - therefore, they are clearly worshipping Jesus (or at least believe they are). They are not kneeling to the tabernacle itself. Worshipping Jesus is not breaking the commandment, obviously. IF the host is not Jesus, they are inadvertently kneeling to bread. But I don’t think there is any mistaking a statue for God’s presence. And the command clearly says not to bow before them.

Apparently many Catholic clergy don’t like how the 2nd commandment reads b/c they deliberately elimated the entire elaboration of “thou shalt have no other gods besides me”; the part about graven images and bowing to them and so forth. I am not the only Catholic who was taught the 10 commandments with the trimmed version of the 2nd commandment.

Originally Posted by JoyToBeCatholic

It doesn’t say he worshipped the angel. In fact, he immediately then acknowledges God in saying “what saith my Lord…”. His reverence is clearly directed toward God and not the angel.

CM:
Hold it… You tell Catholics that it’s forbidden for us to kneel before a statue to pray and yet you refuse to condemn Joshua for actually prostrating himself before a mere angel with a message (Gee, Mary didn’t even do that!). Yet according to your twisted interpretation of the passage, this qualifies as adoration.
Here’s exactly what you told us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoyToBeCatholic
They all say the same thing. Bowing is an expression of adoration lest that be your specific problem with the wording. The angel in revelations and Peter both viewed it as such and rebuked it. Going beyond what is written is pure speculation (that God told them it was worship and so they rebuked them) and an excuse not worthy of my consideration.

I’ll put it another way: If your statue suddenly speaks to you to give you a message from the Lord, I won’t criticize you for having fallen on your face in front of it (although I might think you are a little crazy). However, this is not the case at all, and I think the error in THAT is obvious - although I’m certain you will insist that it is not…

I asked if people in Asian cultures are worshipping each other when they bow, if people who bow to the Queen of England are committing idolatry, and if actors are worshipping their audience when they bow at the conclusion of a play.

I didn’t answer b/c I thought you were being sarcastic.

I know it is a sign of honor and respect for Asians to bow to one another - doubtful the kind of honor and respect they would consider God worthy of. I personally would not do it, but that’s me. I can’t speak for actors, but I think the bow is a sign of appreciation for applause - not b/c they are reverencing the crowd. Of course, in both cases, one can commit idolatry by putting another in place of God. If your asian friend’s friendship is more important to you than your relationship with God, then you are commiting idolatry. If the authority of the Queen of England is respected above that of God’s, then you are commiting idolatry. If pleasing the crowd comes above and beyond your desire to please God, then you are commiting idolatry.

But we are here discussing images/statues. The commandment is not to make for yourself a carved image or any image to bow to or serve. So, although I see the possibility of idolatry being a problem (more subtly perhaps) in the circumstances you raise, it is not so obvious as the problem with making an image and then bowing to it, etc…

He Lives:We should not be bowing down to any object weather it looks like something that is of earth or heaven. Just read what the Isrealites had to go through over and over again because they would bow to objects other than the true and living God. Read the commandments. Read the new testament.

Thanks for your testimony. I’m glad someone other than me sees it so clearly. I don’t know why it is so hard for others to see.

The Ark was a dwelling place of God. That is why they were allowed to bow down.

I can’t think of a better or simpler answer.

Green Lantern: Last I checked, bowing to a dwelling place isn’t the same as bowing to the inhabitant of the dwelling place.

So when you bow to the Tabernacle, you are not bowing to the contents, but the Tabernacle itself? These examples are really getting ridiculous…

That is such a recent set of beliefs (1890 or so) that we must ask you why on earth you can hold to it.

No, this is not a recent set of beliefs. I can’t speak for evangelicals and what they believe - I don’t think I’d class myself as one (although I’m not sure how one would even define an Evangelical anyway). The Iconoclasts began their outbreak in about 723, but there was opposion to the use of images long before that even. The use of images and statues was not a widespread practice in the early church for at least 3 or 4 centuries. I know some of the ECF were opposed to their use.

 

[GreenLantern]

So when you bow to the Tabernacle, you are not bowing to the contents, but the Tabernacle itself? These examples are really getting ridiculous…

Can’t you be bowing to reverence of both?

If God does not want people to bow to a statue of St. Peter as a way to pray then why would he have statues of cherubim on the Ark?

Do you oppose only the bowing to objects or do you oppose the entire concept of icons?

 

[guanophore]

This time I won’t answer the continuing false accusations . They aren’t worth my bother. And truly - they speak for themselves. If someone feels accused, perhaps it is b/c their conscience is bothered.

Or perhaps not. Perhaps someone notices that you are making unjust judgements about your brethren in Christ.

… however, make no mistake about this:

The commandment says not to bow to or serve a carved image or any other image. Those who kneel there are doing so b/c they believe the tabernacle contains bread transformed into Jesus - therefore, they are clearly worshipping Jesus (or at least believe they are). They are not kneeling to the tabernacle itself. Worshipping Jesus is not breaking the commandment, obviously. IF the host is not Jesus, they are inadvertently kneeling to bread. But I don’t think there is any mistaking a statue for God’s presence. And the command clearly says not to bow before them.

I am relieved to see that you are making this concession, even though you apparently do not believe in the real presence.

What you don’t seem to understand is that Catholics do not “bow to” or “bow before” any objects. We kneel (or in the case of Eastern Rite Catholics) bow before God in the presence of an object that serves as a reminder of His Divine Majesty.
JoyToBeCatholic;3480239:

Apparently many Catholic clergy don’t like how the 2nd commandment reads b/c they deliberately elimated the entire elaboration of “thou shalt have no other gods besides me”; the part about graven images and bowing to them and so forth. I am not the only Catholic who was taught the 10 commandments with the trimmed version of the 2nd commandment.

This has nothing to do with the clergy.

c
I’ll put it another way: If your statue suddenly speaks to you to give you a message from the Lord, I won’t criticize you for having fallen on your face in front of it (although I might think you are a little crazy). However, this is not the case at all, and I think the error in THAT is obvious - although I’m certain you will insist that it is not…

Do you not believe that this could happen? Don’t you remember that Jesus said if the people were hushed, the very stones would cry out? God can speak through anyone, or anything, even the mouth of a donkey. I don’t personally expect every icon I see to do this, but I will not limit God either! Do you know the story of the call of St. Francis?

I know it is a sign of honor and respect for Asians to bow to one another - doubtful the kind of honor and respect they would consider God worthy of. I personally would not do it, but that’s me. I can’t speak for actors, but I think the bow is a sign of appreciation for applause - not b/c they are reverencing the crowd. Of course, in both cases, one can commit idolatry by putting another in place of God.

I agree, but what if you are not? The point is that there are other reasons one might bow or show respect that have nothing to do with worship. You have lumped all this behavior into the same category, and it does not fit.

But we are here discussing images/statues. The commandment is not to make for yourself a carved image or any image to bow to or serve. So, although I see the possibility of idolatry being a problem (more subtly perhaps) in the circumstances you raise, it is not so obvious as the problem with making an image and then bowing to it, etc…

I see your point, but images and statues made to honor God don’t fall into the category of “unto thyself”. they are not made to glorify man, or anyone else but God.

I don’t know why it is so hard for others to see.

We are spiritually coming from a different place. If for you, it does not honor God, then you should not do it. My beef is that you want to legislate your personal scruples onto everyone else, and accuse them of idolatry because they don’t see things as you do.

So when you bow to the Tabernacle, you are not bowing to the contents, but the Tabernacle itself? These examples are really getting ridiculous…

Why is that ridiculous? Is it becoming clear that your paintbrush cannot cover everything, and everyone?

When Moses was told to take off his shoes, because He was standing on Holy Ground, was he worshipping the burning bush?

No, this is not a recent set of beliefs. I can’t speak for evangelicals and what they believe - I don’t think I’d class myself as one (although I’m not sure how one would even define an Evangelical anyway). The Iconoclasts began their outbreak in about 723, but there was opposion to the use of images long before that even. The use of images and statues was not a widespread practice in the early church for at least 3 or 4 centuries. I know some of the ECF were opposed to their use.

This is true, but the issue was settled by the authority that Jesus appointed to make decisions. Therefore, in rejecting this, you also reject Jesus.

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

 

[wanner47]

I am sorry, I can’t speak for God or do I know his thoughts.

Well, that’s funny; you seemed pretty emphatic earlier about what was and was not acceptable to God. Why the hesitation now?

 

[planter654]

Well, that’s funny; you seemed pretty emphatic earlier about what was and was not acceptable to God. Why the hesitation now?

As far as what was and was not acceptable to God we have enough of them right here on this forum, who are experts who know the thoughts of God.

I believe in the 10 commandments and in God’s word period. Everthing outside of God. is vanity. What is acceptable to me is simply reading God’s word. Seeking truth and the message in his word which teaches us about God, what is pleasing to him and applying his message in my daily life period.

I still believe in God’s word and his command about not making statues, idols. God’s commandment on this is very simple to understand. Not in the image of man or woman bird etc.

What your choice is or how you choose to serve God, is not mine to judge. Your statement made toward me is not that you truly want my understanding of why I have choosen to serve God first. But to argue, I won’t go there. Yes, everthing outside of God, is vanity.

What is acceptable or not acceptable to God can be read in the Bible. What ones personal relationship with God is just that personal. Whether one chooses to bow to a man made statue, idol or not to. Whether to use them for prayer or not use them for prayer. Whether to make them or not make them. Whether to bow or kneel before them or not do so. Whether to talk to them or not talk to them that is ones personal choice.

Yes, God knows all things even the pure intentions of ones heart whether good or bad motives are meant for the building up or serving ones own self ego.

God Bless

 

[wanner47]

As far as what was and was not acceptable to God we have enough of them right here on this forum, who are experts who know the thoughts of God.

Well, the Church is the instrument through which the Holy Spirit speaks, so in that respect I suppose you’re right. However, my friend, I wouldn’t be so quick to throw stones – you were doing plenty “speaking for God” yourself in previous posts.

I believe in the 10 commandments and in God’s word period. Everthing outside of God. is vanity. What is acceptable to me is simply reading God’s word. Seeking truth and the message in his word which teaches us about God, what is pleasing to him and applying his message in my daily life period.

I agree – to a point. However, given that Scripture won’t interpret itself, it’s also important to seek the counsel of the Church established by Christ when interpeting Scripture – and it’s also important to read Scripture in context of the oral teaching of the apostles (i.e., Sacred Tradition).

I still believe in God’s word and his command about not making statues, idols. God’s commandment on this is very simple to understand. Not in the image of man or woman bird etc.

You’re right; it’s very simple to understand. We are not to make statues or idols for the purpose of worshiping them. It’s crystal clear.

What your choice is or how you choose to serve God, is not mine to judge.

So why come to this thread and tell me that I’m sinning by allegedly “worshiping” statues?

Your statement made toward me is not that you truly want my understanding of why I have choosen to serve God first. But to argue, I won’t go there. Yes, everthing outside of God, is vanity.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. I understand that you put God first, and that’s great – but I don’t understand why you seem to think that Catholics *don’t *just because our worship practices differ from yours.

What is acceptable or not acceptable to God can be read in the Bible. What ones personal relationship with God is just that personal. Whether one chooses to bow to a man made statue, idol or not to. Whether to use them for prayer or not use them for prayer. Whether to make them or not make them. Whether to bow or kneel before them or not do so. Whether to talk to them or not talk to them that is ones personal choice.

Agreed! So why did you participate in this thread if you feel that way? Your previous posts seem to indicate that you didn’t think it was a matter of “choice” at all; rather, that one way was sinful and the other wasn’t.

Yes, God knows all things even the pure intentions of ones heart whether good or bad motives are meant for the building up or serving ones own self ego.

Agreed! Unfortunately, we as mere humans do not and so should not be so quick to judge others.

Was it really necessary to respond to my two-sentence post with five paragraphs?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Can’t you be bowing to reverence of both?

I suppose you could, but I sure wouldn’t. When I used to bow to the altar it was with the assumption that there were likely very small particles of consectrated hosts on it - not b/c I thought the altar was worthy of veneration. Otherwise, if that possibility was absent (like if it were completely sanitized after every mass), I would still treat the altar with respect (like hallowed ground), but I wouldn’t bow to it.

If God does not want people to bow to a statue of St. Peter as a way to pray then why would he have statues of cherubim on the Ark?

You are working off of the assumption that the statues on the Ark were there for the purpose of being reverenced. In the case of the Tabernacle, for instance, a kneeling posture is called for in acknowledgement of the presence of God. If the Tabernacle happens to be decorated with an angel or something like that on it, then the fact that you are knelt in front of the image of an angel is accidental.

Do you oppose only the bowing to objects or do you oppose the entire concept of icons?

Actually, I am opposed to the entire concept of images in worship and devotion, b/c I think we have a tendancy to adore them too much. I think the temptation is very real for a great many people.

 

[planter654]

Well, the Church is the instrument through which the Holy Spirit speaks, so in that respect I suppose you’re right. However, my friend, I wouldn’t be so quick to throw stones – you were doing plenty “speaking for God” yourself in previous posts.

I agree – to a point. However, given that Scripture won’t interpret itself, it’s also important to seek the counsel of the Church established by Christ when interpeting Scripture – and it’s also important to read Scripture in context of the oral teaching of the apostles (i.e., Sacred Tradition).

You’re right; it’s very simple to understand. We are not to make statues or idols for the purpose of worshiping them. It’s crystal clear.

So why come to this thread and tell me that I’m sinning by allegedly “worshiping” statues?

I’m not sure what you mean by this. I understand that you put God first, and that’s great – but I don’t understand why you seem to think that Catholics *don’t *just because our worship practices differ from yours.

Agreed! So why did you participate in this thread if you feel that way? Your previous posts seem to indicate that you didn’t think it was a matter of “choice” at all; rather, that one way was sinful and the other wasn’t.

Agreed! Unfortunately, we as mere humans do not and so should not be so quick to judge others.

Was it really necessary to respond to my two-sentence post with five paragraphs?

My thoughts are, Were you truly not waiting for a response by your two sentence question post?

One I am a Catholic. Two my thoughts in coming to this forum is because it is Catholic, two —I did not come to judge that is the truth. But to have confersations with other Catholics about our Love for God–period and what he has done for me!

Your personally relationship is just that your personal relationship! I did not come to a Catholic Forum to debate, judge etc but to express my personal relationship, now I can see this forum is not about what God has done for me or for you.( personal I mean)

But my thought is in asking why have such topic titles as theses? Truly you must know they would cause different replies, to the point of judging, name calling–non Catholic, Protestant and I have read far worst and I might add I was one who has had many stones thrown at me etc.

But what is important all brothers and sisters is to love one another, and don’t worry God is in charge and knows all and loves us all dearly! God takes very good care of all his children. I bare witness God is always there for me in my darkest moments now and forever.
Wanner 47 I love you and peace
God Bless

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I am relieved to see that you are making this concession, even though you apparently do not believe in the real presence.

It’s the only remaining belief I haven’t been able to deny. Maybe I’ll address it here sometime.

Do you not believe that this could happen? Don’t you remember that Jesus said if the people were hushed, the very stones would cry out? God can speak through anyone, or anything, even the mouth of a donkey. I don’t personally expect every icon I see to do this, but I will not limit God either! Do you know the story of the call of St. Francis?

I believe God can use absolutely anything to get our attention, but I don’t think we should use images in the hopes He will use them in such a way. Yes, I do know the story of St. Francis and God’s call to him to “rebuild my church”. I don’t know how literally I would take all aspects of that story though.

I agree, but what if you are not? The point is that there are other reasons one might bow or show respect that have nothing to do with worship. You have lumped all this behavior into the same category, and it does not fit.

I have acknowledged that the intentions may be good, but I am citing the danger it can cause - that is why I believe God forbids it with images. I don’t think the danger of idolatry is as obvious in the cases of asians bowing, the queen or the audience, but I personally wouldn’t do it or advocate it b/c, at the very least, I don’t think it is conducive to a good Christian witness to bow to people either.
I think the examples of Cornelius and John are pertinent here, but b/c your bible translates “adore” instead of “bow” you don’t see it. I don’t think Joshua falling on his face in front of the angel as the angel is givign him God’s message is a good parallel at all, but I realize you probably disagree.

I see your point, but images and statues made to honor God don’t fall into the category of “unto thyself”. they are not made to glorify man, or anyone else but God.

The intent may be to glorify god in an abstract way - b/c you use them (unto thyself) for the purpose of raising your heart and mind to God. I agree that this is a good purpose for doing something, but I don’t think it is a good purpose to break a commandment. I don’t know how God sees it. I hope for your sakes He overlooks the production of images and then bowing/kneeling in front of them b/c your intentions are good, but I recall many instances where God had given a command and man reasoned a way to disobey it. In fact Uzzah had good intentions when he touched the ark, yet God smote him.

My beef is that you want to legislate your personal scruples onto everyone else, and accuse them of idolatry because they don’t see things as you do.

No, I want test my convictions. So far, although I agree the intentions are good (at least in most cases), I see the possibility that God still judges the action regardless of the intention, and the possibility that weak individuals may fall into idolatry b/c of this. This is not a judgement on anyone. You present valid reasons why people would see a benefit in doing these things, but I’m still not convinced it is a good thing for the church to encourage. But maybe I should stick around and see if someone can enlighten me with some other evidence that supports the church’s positions (?)

When Moses was told to take off his shoes, because He was standing on Holy Ground, was he worshipping the burning bush?

No, He was obeying God who told him to remove his shoes, AND He was in the presence of God.

This is true, but the issue was settled by the authority that Jesus appointed to make decisions. Therefore, in rejecting this, you also reject Jesus.

That is a seperate issue (the authority of the Catholic church). I agree that it is a central issue though, for if I believe in it, I would be resigned to the churches teachings on such matters. One of the reasons I don’t believe the church’s claims of authority and infallibility is b/c of teachings like this which clearly seem to contradict Scripture.

 

[Church_Militant]

This is ridiculous.

To even bother to discuss “bowing to a statue” because I don’t know a single faithful Catholic that does that. I don’t recall a single Catholic in all my life who has done that.

The bowing “debate” is based on a error in premise.

The point is that there is no idolatry in Catholic teaching, and JTBC wishes there was so he’d be able to justify his indictment against the Church.

The iconoclastic issue came up in the 8th-9th century though it had been discussed from time to time prior to that, but it was in council that the Church examined the issue and condemned iconoclasm.

The fact is that it didn’t even really become an issue until the Moslems came along and forbade their people from any images at all.

Anyone know any soldiers who have served in Afghanistan where the Taliban Islamic fundamentalists were in charge? You couldn’t even have a scenic picture on the wall or a portrait of family. Is that what you people would have next? That’s the next logical step if you take this iconoclastic position.

The fact is that the revival of all this was inspired by the influence of Islam. So suddenly, these Christians want to accept the tenets of a non-Christian religion on a matter that Christianity settled centuries ago.

Moreover, as I pointed out before, the argument so far is still nothing more than the assertion of a twisted scriptural interpretation.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

To even bother to discuss “bowing to a statue” because I don’t know a single faithful Catholic that does that. I don’t recall a single Catholic in all my life who has done that.

Let me follow your choice selection of words: So you perhaps believe there are “unfaithful” Catholics who do it? Are you here admitting that there are Catholics who do it? And you have judged them as “unfaithful” b/c they do? Could it be that they APPEAR unfaithful to you b/c they look like they are doing something wrong? Could it be that they have unknowingly fallen into idolatry b/c the church didn’t condemn this practice?

If you want to be literal about “bowing” (vs. kneeling) then take a poll and see how many Catholic bow to the crucifix at church. I know of many who do! They mistakenly believe, or have been taught, they they are not bowing to the altar, but to the crucifix on the wall behind it (many of our Catholic parishes do this - I realize not all have a crucifix in the front of the church though). Maybe that is a result of poor catechisis (or no catechesis), but it’s a problem none the less, and wouldn’t be if there weren’t such images in the church to begin with!

I used to know a woman who had a bust of Jesus with a nightlight in front of it. She used to talk to and pray to that statue a lot. Crazy? Perhaps. I don’t think she was crazy though. I think she really believed it was okay.

CM, you seem very naive or ignorant about the Catholic use of statues. Do you deny the existence of the pilgrim statue of Fatima? The one that gets paraded down the streets and so forth? People treat it as if it were Jesus Himself coming down the street - reaching out to touch it, etc… Your comments here imply that those Catholics are unfaithful. If so, why doesn’t the church condemn the misuse of this statue?

Do you deny that people kneel before and pray before statues? Not accidently (b/c it happens to be there) but intentionally? Your posts don’t touch on any of the many issues I have raised. You just flat out say “Catholics don’t do that” or “Faithful Catholics don’t do that” and put the rest of the focus on me.

The iconoclastic issue came up in the 8th-9th century though it had been discussed from time to time prior to that, but it was in council that the Church examined the issue and condemned iconoclasm.

Well, iconoclasts were not peaceful either - they went around destroying images. I’d condemn them too

The fact is that it didn’t even really become an issue until the Moslems came along and forbade their people from any images at all.

Ok, so the ECF who were against it were Moslems?

Anyone know any soldiers who have served in Afghanistan where the Taliban Islamic fundamentalists were in charge? You couldn’t even have a scenic picture on the wall or a portrait of family. Is that what you people would have next? That’s the next logical step if you take this iconoclastic position.

No its not. One need not refrain from pointing out what Scripture condemns for fear that extremists will cause violence. And who kneels to, bows to, etc. family portraits or scenic pictures?

The fact is that the revival of all this was inspired by the influence of Islam. So suddenly, these Christians want to accept the tenets of a non-Christian religion on a matter that Christianity settled centuries ago.

So you are ASSUMING that these Christians are against images because of Islam - not b/c of Scripture?

 

[Unitas]

Let me follow your choice selection of words: So you perhaps believe there are “unfaithful” Catholics who do it? Are you here admitting that there are Catholics who do it? And you have judged them as “unfaithful” b/c they do? Could it be that they APPEAR unfaithful to you b/c they look like they are doing something wrong? Could it be that they have unknowingly fallen into idolatry b/c the church didn’t condemn this practice?

If you want to be literal about “bowing” (vs. kneeling) then take a poll and see how many Catholic bow to the crucifix at church. I know of many who do! They mistakenly believe, or have been taught, they they are not bowing to the altar, but to the crucifix on the wall behind it (many of our Catholic parishes do this - I realize not all have a crucifix in the front of the church though). Maybe that is a result of poor catechisis (or no catechesis), but it’s a problem none the less, and wouldn’t be if there weren’t such images in the church to begin with!

I used to know a woman who had a bust of Jesus with a nightlight in front of it. She used to talk to and pray to that statue a lot. Crazy? Perhaps. I don’t think she was crazy though. I think she really believed it was okay.

CM, you seem very naive or ignorant about the Catholic use of statues. Do you deny the existence of the pilgrim statue of Fatima? The one that gets paraded down the streets and so forth? People treat it as if it were Jesus Himself coming down the street - reaching out to touch it, etc… Your comments here imply that those Catholics are unfaithful. If so, why doesn’t the church condemn the misuse of this statue?

Do you deny that people kneel before and pray before statues? Not accidently (b/c it happens to be there) but intentionally? Your posts don’t touch on any of the many issues I have raised. You just flat out say “Catholics don’t do that” or “Faithful Catholics don’t do that” and put the rest of the focus on me.
Well, iconoclasts were not peaceful either - they went around destroying images. I’d condemn them too Ok, so the ECF who were against it were Moslems? No its not. One need not refrain from pointing out what Scripture condemns for fear that extremists will cause violence. And who kneels to, bows to, etc. family portraits or scenic pictures? So you are ASSUMING that these Christians are against images because of Islam - not b/c of Scripture?

At the neginning of this thread, you told us how you ‘discovered’ that John 6 is not to be taken literally. Yet now you say Exodus 20:5 is to be taken literally. So which is it? Why not the other way around? Because your private interpretation says so?

If you can prove bowing in and of itself is an explicit act of worship and worship only (which you haven’t) then I’ll believe you.

From the GIRM:

1. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration
2. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them.

You still have yet to prove that bowing out of reverence is actually placing an ‘idol’ above God, thus violating the first commandment. Until then it is merely you expressing the primacy of your reading comprehension.

I honestly hope you reconsider your apostasy. You are no longer invincibly ignorant, and in grave danger.