Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[planter654]

Let me follow your choice selection of words: So you perhaps believe there are “unfaithful” Catholics who do it? Are you here admitting that there are Catholics who do it? And you have judged them as “unfaithful” b/c they do? Could it be that they APPEAR unfaithful to you b/c they look like they are doing something wrong? Could it be that they have unknowingly fallen into idolatry b/c the church didn’t condemn this practice?

If you want to be literal about “bowing” (vs. kneeling) then take a poll and see how many Catholic bow to the crucifix at church. I know of many who do! They mistakenly believe, or have been taught, they they are not bowing to the altar, but to the crucifix on the wall behind it (many of our Catholic parishes do this - I realize not all have a crucifix in the front of the church though). Maybe that is a result of poor catechisis (or no catechesis), but it’s a problem none the less, and wouldn’t be if there weren’t such images in the church to begin with!

I used to know a woman who had a bust of Jesus with a nightlight in front of it. She used to talk to and pray to that statue a lot. Crazy? Perhaps. I don’t think she was crazy though. I think she really believed it was okay.

CM, you seem very naive or ignorant about the Catholic use of statues. Do you deny the existence of the pilgrim statue of Fatima? The one that gets paraded down the streets and so forth? People treat it as if it were Jesus Himself coming down the street - reaching out to touch it, etc… Your comments here imply that those Catholics are unfaithful. If so, why doesn’t the church condemn the misuse of this statue?

Do you deny that people kneel before and pray before statues? Not accidently (b/c it happens to be there) but intentionally? Your posts don’t touch on any of the many issues I have raised. You just flat out say “Catholics don’t do that” or “Faithful Catholics don’t do that” and put the rest of the focus on me.
Well, iconoclasts were not peaceful either - they went around destroying images. I’d condemn them too Ok, so the ECF who were against it were Moslems? No its not. One need not refrain from pointing out what Scripture condemns for fear that extremists will cause violence. And who kneels to, bows to, etc. family portraits or scenic pictures? So you are ASSUMING that these Christians are against images because of Islam - not b/c of Scripture?

Beautifully said and done so with compassion and respect!

God Bless

 

[sodak]

If you can’t get past the fact that an icon is plastic or wood, then, FOR YOU, it would probably be idolatry, and sinful.

I don’t have that problem.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

At the neginning of this thread, you told us how you ‘discovered’ that John 6 is not to be taken literally. Yet now you say Exodus 20:5 is to be taken literally.

No I didn’t. I explained why I don’t believe it need be taken literally - giving the example of the question posed to Jesus regarding the coin.

So which is it? Why not the other way around? Because your private interpretation says so?

B/c, unlike with the coin example, there is nothing in Scripture that advocates the use of images EXCEPT where God specifically commanded it. There is, however, ample Scripture to give us examples of how God views the use of images (when we take it upon ourselves to make them).

If you can prove bowing in and of itself is an explicit act of worship and worship only (which you haven’t) then I’ll believe you.

I don’t have to. I can prove that God commanded us not to bow to images. Perhaps it is b/c HE considers it worship? Regardless, I won’t test it to find out.

From the GIRM:

1. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration
2. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them.

You are citing the churches definition. I realize you find these definitions authoritative, but I don’t necessarily.

You still have yet to prove that bowing out of reverence is actually placing an ‘idol’ above God, thus violating the first commandment. Until then it is merely you expressing the primacy of your reading comprehension.

Again, I don’t have to prove anything except what the commandment states and why we have no reason to believe (except where indicated in Scripture - like in the case of the coin) that there are exceptions to the rule.

I honestly hope you reconsider your apostasy. You are no longer invincibly ignorant, and in grave danger.

I am in no danger at all, b/c if I’m correct to take a careful approach to the matter of using images, and I am wrong about them being an offense to God, I will have commited no offense anyway. If I’m correct to be careful and find God would have been offended by the use of images, I will have done the right thing. It is you that are more prone to being in grave danger. I prefer not to put it to the test - and imo, (which doesn’t count for much) the church would be wise to do the same.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

If you can’t get past the fact that an icon is plastic or wood, then, FOR YOU, it would probably be idolatry, and sinful.

I don’t have that problem.

What do you propose God expected a “graven” image to be made from? Something living?

 

[planter654]

Right, but if we create statues of living things that God has created in His image, the statues are of His creations. And He has also gifted us with the talent and ability to create statues, icons, etc., so they belong to Him in that way as well – especially if the artists intend to use their talents to give glory to God, as so many Christian artists do.

WE were all given a gift from God, that can serve one another. But we must be careful to use God’s gift to do good things. Doctors have their gift also, but not for abortion etc. Are they using their gift to serve to do good or to do evil that goes against the command and will of God. God has given us boundries, in in nature.That is each ones choice, not to be judged for God is our judge. Cesasre, his is image was on money, was money more important to him, that I do not know. Or what his personal relationship was with God. Give to Cesare what belongs to him. But render onto to God what belongs to God. Who do you belong to? Whom or what do you worship? Whom do we serve, whom do we give and live for? That is up to the individually, but know that God knows his own and what is his.So if I worship God, I having giving all of myself to God and it is to God that I ask, seek, and knock to do all that is pleasing to him.

God is my Holy Father, he hears me, answers me, carrys me in my darkest moment, it is God whom I turn to. God will be with me when I am on my agony of death. Money won’t be there, nor can money save me, or talk to me or fill me with the spiritual joy God give me! That is only my own personal understanding. What you worship you become one with good or bad.

It is not for me to judge anyone, anyone for I to will be judge by God. It is a sin for me to do so, for God tells us to love our enemies as I love myself. I believe God’s word that we were created in his image. I am created in God’s image. All things belong to God, not evil but all that is good. What does good and evil have in common.

So are statues his creation?..NO-- they are not for me anyway. God did not create them, but humans who choose to do so. Whether or what their personal relationship is, is theirs. God commanded us not to do so.

So if I give all my whole being to God and truly say in faith that I believe and accept his word as truth, then if I say I love him and do not do or obey what he has asked and commanded me not to do and I do the opposed and along with that I pray Lord, Lord---- will God not say to me get away from me! For I know you not,or who you are! That is my personal explainning only. My choice!

Everyone has their own choice you cannot force someone to love anyone. Forcing someone one to love you, is not Love. Nor would I want that kind of Love. So why would I think God “should be” pleased, excepting this kind of Love from me?

I cannot force God against his own “I will”! For God himself said: I choose whom “I WILL”.

No I am not judging anyone, it is your choice. But explaining and stating I believe in “God’s commandments” and I should not be judged or attacked by anyone in serving and worshipping God.

God Bless for God loves us all and I you!

 

[sodak]

What do you propose God expected a “graven” image to be made from? Something living?

I would consult with the Church that gave us the Bible, the correct interpretation would come from them. Amazing how you will trust a document but not it’s author/editor.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

2 other things that occurred to me:

No one has addressed how we make “other gods” of things or people. Please see my initial post. If we can agree that money can be “another god”, how do you not see the treatment of these images (bowing before, lighting candles to, intentionally positioining onesself in front of to pray…) as “other gods”? Ok, maybe it isn’t a perfect parallel, but to some extent it is at least questionable.

And finally, no one has attempted to touch my other point about perfection. That even according to Catholic instruction from Catholic saints, at the VERY LEAST, these images are an obstacle to perfection.

I think this is important, b/c I think it is the church’s position to lift us up and to encourage us toward perfection. I can appreciate a church that encourages us to steer as far away from sin as possible. Many churches believe in the “bare minimum” - I think that is dangerous. It doesn’t take into account weak humanity. I know the HS helps us triumph over sin, but we do not always respond to the HS perfectly. We do not become without sin or the tendency to sin once we are Christian!

Interested in your thoughts on that…

 

[davidv]

2 other things that occurred to me:

No one has addressed how we make “other gods” of things or people. Please see my initial post. If we can agree that money can be “another god”, how do you not see the treatment of these images (bowing before, lighting candles to, intentionally positioining onesself in front of to pray…) as “other gods”? Ok, maybe it isn’t a perfect parallel, but to some extent it is at least questionable.

What do you think of this:

We make “other gods”, idols of things by our attitude about them. We do not make idols by our behaviors when we are by them. So, take your money example, for instance. Many us will fold it carefully, place it in a wallet, which we then place on our person, in a pocket for instance. This behavior seems very much like of a worshiper of an amulet that they careful hang about their neck under their clothes. So is it the attitude or the behavior that make the idol of a thing or person?

And finally, no one has attempted to touch my other point about perfection. That even according to Catholic instruction from Catholic saints, at the VERY LEAST, these images are an obstacle to perfection.

I think this is important, b/c I think it is the church’s position to lift us up and to encourage us toward perfection. I can appreciate a church that encourages us to steer as far away from sin as possible. Many churches believe in the “bare minimum” - I think that is dangerous. It doesn’t take into account weak humanity. I know the HS helps us triumph over sin, but we do not always respond to the HS perfectly. We do not become without sin or the tendency to sin once we are Christian!

Interested in your thoughts on that…

It seems to me that many here have testified that sacred images have not only not been a obstacle, but have been an aid to their walk with Christ in attempting to obey His command to be perfect. So I really don’t get you objection.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

What do you think of this:

We make “other gods”, idols of things by our attitude about them. We do not make idols by our behaviors when we are by them. So, take your money example, for instance. Many us will fold it carefully, place it in a wallet, which we then place on our person, in a pocket for instance. This behavior seems very much like of a worshiper of an amulet that they careful hang about their neck under their clothes. So is it the attitude or the behavior that make the idol of a thing or person?

It seems to me that many here have testified that sacred images have not only not been a obstacle, but have been an aid to their walk with Christ in attempting to obey His command to be perfect. So I really don’t get you objection.

Yes, I agree with you about attitude, but I think I’ve shown many examples of how the treatment of something can be considered idolatry too. My main concern is that we assume God is okay with the treatment b/c the intention may be good. I hope that is true, but I think it is an assumption - one I personally wouldn’t want to test.

 

[planter654]

What do you think of this:

We make “other gods”, idols of things by our attitude about them. We do not make idols by our behaviors when we are by them. So, take your money example, for instance. Many us will fold it carefully, place it in a wallet, which we then place on our person, in a pocket for instance. This behavior seems very much like of a worshiper of an amulet that they careful hang about their neck under their clothes. So is it the attitude or the behavior that make the idol of a thing or person?

It seems to me that many here have testified that sacred images have not only not been a obstacle, but have been an aid to their walk with Christ in attempting to obey His command to be perfect. So I really don’t get you objection.

When you mention amulet there is a story in the OT in Maccabees with Judas faithful to God, who was defeated by the enemies, he found out why!

Chapter 12 Verse 40—42 NAB "------But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols fo Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all thereforth praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. verse 46–Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Jesus was a Jew and in his day still they were forbidden under the law.

Idols are blessed, statues etc.

 

[planter654]

When you mention amulet there is a story in the OT in Maccabees with Judas faithful to God, who was defeated by the enemies, he found out why!

Chapter 12 Verse 40—42 NAB "------But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols fo Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all thereforth praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. verse 46–Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Jesus was a Jew and in his day still they were forbidden under the law.

Idols are blessed, statues etc. We need money to eat that is why we work. If we do not work we do not eat. Worship God is what I try to do only. God Bless QUOTE]

 

[wanner47]

2 other things that occurred to me:

No one has addressed how we make “other gods” of things or people. Please see my initial post. If we can agree that money can be “another god”, how do you not see the treatment of these images (bowing before, lighting candles to, intentionally positioining onesself in front of to pray…) as “other gods”? Ok, maybe it isn’t a perfect parallel, but to some extent it is at least questionable.

If we use your logic, however, it means that we must abolish EVERYTHING in our lives that could possibly be “idols” to us and possibly come before God in our lives. To take this to an extreme, it means that someone to which money is an idol would have to quit their job and live without money. Someone who has an enormous amount of pride in their children would have to either murder their children or stop having any contact with them whatsoever.

Also by your logic, the Church should ban things that people get too attached to (statues, money, etc.). So the Church should say, “It’s a sin to use money AT ALL because some people put too much affection towards it” or “it’s a sin to have children AT ALL because some people put serving their children above serving God”?

It seems a rather ridiculous proposal, don’t you think?

Also, I’ve yet to hear of anyone literally WORSHIPING money, their kids, etc. AS GODS. Giving undue affection that could and should be directed to God? Yes. Literal WORSHIP? No.

And finally, no one has attempted to touch my other point about perfection. That even according to Catholic instruction from Catholic saints, at the VERY LEAST, these images are an obstacle to perfection.

FOR** SOME** PEOPLE. NOT FOR **ALL **PEOPLE. If you, personally, have a problem with statues, then by all means do not use them. But most Catholics don’t have that problem, so it makes no sense to ban something because a few people have issues. See my comments above.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

If we use your logic, however, it means that we must abolish EVERYTHING in our lives that could possibly be “idols” to us and possibly come before God in our lives.

No it doesn’t. God probaby had the foresight to see why the use of images would be a problem for us - therfore He forbade it. There isn’t much practical or necessary use for an image, except, as you say, as an aid to prayer - but that isn’t a necessity. Money is for the most part necessary. Loving one’s neighbor is necessary. I don’t see how one can compare.

To take this to an extreme, it means that someone to which money is an idol would have to quit their job and live without money.

Y’know - if someone’s career is a problem, maybe they SHOULD consider a new line of work! Or if it’s money, maybe they SHOULD have someone else handle their finances.

Someone who has an enormous amount of pride in their children would have to either murder their children or stop having any contact with them whatsoever.

I don’t know what the solution could possibly be in a case like that. They would have to find some way of mortifying themselves in regard to their children w/out negatively affecting the child.

Also by your logic, the Church should ban things that people get too attached to (statues, money, etc.).

The church has a command, from God, not to use images. I don’t know what could be plainer. See above about abolishing the other things you mentioned. I do think it would be helpful if the church gave more direction about those things (misuse of money, etc.). I have, in fact, heard good homilies addressing those problems. I don’t hear much from the pulpit, however, about the misuse of images.

So the Church should say, “It’s a sin to use money AT ALL because some people put too much affection towards it” or “it’s a sin to have children AT ALL because some people put serving their children above serving God”?

I think it would be against God’s nature to tell us having children is forbidden - but sure - when God tells us to, the church should uphold His command.

FOR** SOME** PEOPLE. NOT FOR **ALL **PEOPLE. If you, personally, have a problem with statues, then by all means do not use them. But most Catholics don’t have that problem, so it makes no sense to ban something because a few people have issues. See my comments above.

In order to answer all this I would have to repeat the many examples I’ve already given.

Again and again: You ASSUME intention will excuse the use of images.

I hope you are right!

 

[planter654]

No it doesn’t. God probaby had the foresight to see why the use of images would be a problem for us - therfore He forbade it. There isn’t much practical or necessary use for an image, except, as you say, as an aid to prayer - but that isn’t a necessity. Money is for the most part necessary. Loving one’s neighbor is necessary. I don’t see how one can compare. Y’know - if someone’s career is a problem, maybe they SHOULD consider a new line of work! Or if it’s money, maybe they SHOULD have someone else handle their finances. I don’t know what the solution could possibly be in a case like that. They would have to find some way of mortifying themselves in regard to their children w/out negatively affecting the child. The church has a command, from God, not to use images. I don’t know what could be plainer. See above about abolishing the other things you mentioned. I do think it would be helpful if the church gave more direction about those things (misuse of money, etc.). I have, in fact, heard good homilies addressing those problems. I don’t hear much from the pulpit, however, about the misuse of images. I think it would be against God’s nature to tell us having children is forbidden - but sure - when God tells us to, the church should uphold His command.
In order to answer all this I would have to repeat the many examples I’ve already given.

Again and again: You ASSUME intention will excuse the use of images.

I hope you are right!

Did not God command us to multiply and be fruitful, cultivate the earth. What about Jesus who said if anyone hurts a little child. Are not children a blessing from God? Just reflexting on what was mentioned. Honour thy father and mother. Love our enemies. Love and serve. I agree with you Joy. Not judging anyone but trying to understand it all.

I ask do we love our idols to such a degree, that we defend a statue that cannot talk or walk, move, hear or dust itself off, plus willing to disobey God’s commandment. We defend, to such a degree over a block of stone, that has been craved by human hands and painted with paint in different colours, and if it falls it breaks? I only mention this because this is what I have ask myself? I am not judging, but maybe it will help, I don,t know. For it is one’s own personal decision.

Jesus loved his mother and father, honoured them both etc, But do you think he Worshipped her? Whom did Jesus serve first and done so inobedience to the will and desire of his Father in Heaven. Exspecially when Jesus stayed in the temple by his choice and in obedience to God, Jesus choose not to return with his parents, nor letting them both know of his decision. Surly Jesus must of known his parents would be worried and upset with him, right? But like Jesus said: Did you not know that I would be about my fathers business?

ST. Paul: beware of idols.
God Bless

 

[guanophore]

I suppose you could, but I sure wouldn’t. When I used to bow to the altar it was with the assumption that there were likely very small particles of consectrated hosts on it - not b/c I thought the altar was worthy of veneration. Otherwise, if that possibility was absent (like if it were completely sanitized after every mass), I would still treat the altar with respect (like hallowed ground), but I wouldn’t bow to it.

Do you now believe you were wrong? Do you not beleive the Jesus taught that the Altar of sacrifice was holy?

Matt 23:19-22
For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and he who swears by the temple, swears by it and by him who dwells in it; 22 and he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

You are working off of the assumption that the statues on the Ark were there for the purpose of being reverenced. In the case of the Tabernacle, for instance, a kneeling posture is called for in acknowledgement of the presence of God. If the Tabernacle happens to be decorated with an angel or something like that on it, then the fact that you are knelt in front of the image of an angel is accidental. Actually, I am opposed to the entire concept of images in worship and devotion, b/c I think we have a tendancy to adore them too much. I think the temptation is very real for a great many people.

Why do you think the images were on the ark? I agree with you, that the visual image is happenstance, and it is that which it represents that is to be worsipped. The One who sits on the Throne of God.

 

[guanophore]

My thoughts are, Were you truly not waiting for a response by your two sentence question post?

One I am a Catholic. Two my thoughts in coming to this forum is because it is Catholic, two —I did not come to judge that is the truth. But to have confersations with other Catholics about our Love for God–period and what he has done for me!

Your personally relationship is just that your personal relationship! I did not come to a Catholic Forum to debate, judge etc but to express my personal relationship, now I can see this forum is not about what God has done for me or for you.( personal I mean)

But my thought is in asking why have such topic titles as theses? Truly you must know they would cause different replies, to the point of judging, name calling–non Catholic, Protestant and I have read far worst and I might add I was one who has had many stones thrown at me etc.

But what is important all brothers and sisters is to love one another, and don’t worry God is in charge and knows all and loves us all dearly! God takes very good care of all his children. I bare witness God is always there for me in my darkest moments now and forever. God Bless

A Catholic is one who embraces the Teachings of the Catholic Church. Since you have been clear that you do not, it is disingenuous for you to portray yourself as though you are. Your posts have been judgemental. Perhaps what you are saying is true, and that was not your purpose, but it was the fruit of your action, and therefore, the heart, for the mouth speaks that which fills the heart.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Do you now believe you were wrong?

Yes, I realize that was not the reasons I was supposed to be bowing to the altar either. It made sense to me, and I was never taught otherwise. I did know that it was not the cross I was supposed to be bowing to though.

Do you not beleive the Jesus taught that the Altar of sacrifice was holy?

Matt 23:19-22
For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 21 and he who swears by the temple, swears by it and by him who dwells in it; 22 and he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

I see your point, but I don’t know if bowing is the appropriate gesture to make toward it (if a gesture is needed to be made at all).

Why do you think the images were on the ark?

I suppose to indicate, visually, that it was holy. As a reminder to the people perhaps. This was also before the coming of the HS. People perhaps needed the visual aids b/c they lacked the indwelling spirit. God’s presence was localized externally (although certainly still omnipresent) whereas now God abides, internally, in those who believe.

 

[guanophore]

What do you propose God expected a “graven” image to be made from? Something living?

This is a good point. Some of the monasteries and churches have bushes carved in the shape of angels.

No one has addressed how we make “other gods” of things or people. Please see my initial post. If we can agree that money can be “another god”,

I thought you addressed it quite adequately.

how do you not see the treatment of these images (bowing before, lighting candles to, intentionally positioining onesself in front of to pray…) as “other gods”? Ok, maybe it isn’t a perfect parallel, but to some extent it is at least questionable.

Personally, I cannot fathom how one can make an idol out of an image or a statue. I understand that this was done, and I read about it in the OT, but for me, the idea that an inanimate object can “do” anything just does not compute. Having had other idols in my life such as vanity and the love of money (as well as some others I will not mention here) I can better make sense out of that. Catholics don’t “bow before” images or statues. They don’t light candles “to” the images. Catholics bow only before God the Father. If a person does otherwise, then they are not Catholic. I also cannot see how it matters where one is “positioned to pray”. God looks upon the heart. I just watched The Hiding Place, and Corrie Ten Boom knelt before the small window of her cell, and looked up at the light to pray. I don’t think she was “bowing before” the window!

Here is a popular image of Christ in prayer. Do you think He is kneeling before the rock?

http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/interactive/prayer.jpg

And finally, no one has attempted to touch my other point about perfection. That even according to Catholic instruction from Catholic saints, at the VERY LEAST, these images are an obstacle to perfection.

I think that what a person needs to be perfected is very individual. One man came to Jesus and asked what he must do, and Jesus told him to sell all that he had. I don’t think this is a blanket instruction. Apparently, for your perfection, you have been given an instruction that is the same as the one given to the saint. Have you considered that others may have different areas that require perfection?

I think this is important, b/c I think it is the church's position to lift us up and to encourage us toward perfection. I can appreciate a church that encourages us to steer as far away from sin as possible. Many churches believe in the "bare minimum" - I think that is dangerous. It doesn't take into account weak humanity. I know the HS helps us triumph over sin, but we do not always respond to the HS perfectly. We do not become without sin or the tendency to sin once we are Christian!

Interested in your thoughts on that…

I think it is time to go get that believers baptism you were talking about!

 

[guanophore]

No it doesn’t. God probaby had the foresight to see why the use of images would be a problem for us - therfore He forbade it. There isn’t much practical or necessary use for an image, except, as you say, as an aid to prayer - but that isn’t a necessity.

If they are not useful to you, and you are convinced in your own heart that it is forbidden, then you are obligated to be obedient to your understanding in good conscience.

They would have to find some way of mortifying themselves in regard to their children w/out negatively affecting the child.

Apparently this did not happen in the case of your parents, which is regrettable.

The church has a command, from God, not to use images. I don’t know what could be plainer.

This is your private interpretation of Scripture, which you certainly have a right to make and to follow. However, the Church does not receive this from God, or from you. The Church has determined that that the commandment relates to idol worship, and not to images.

I do think it would be helpful if the church gave more direction about those things (misuse of money, etc.). I have, in fact, heard good homilies addressing those problems. I don’t hear much from the pulpit, however, about the misuse of images.

Perhaps that is because it is not a problem for most people?

Again and again: You ASSUME intention will excuse the use of images.

I hope you are right!

No, we trust the determination of the Church. What this boils down to is an authority issue. You cannot accept the Authority appointed by Christ. This often happens when people have been wounded by persons in a position of authority.

I see your point, but I don't know if bowing is the appropriate gesture to make toward it (if a gesture is needed to be made at all). I suppose to indicate, visually, that it was holy. As a reminder to the people perhaps. This was also before the coming of the HS. People perhaps needed the visual aids b/c they lacked the indwelling spirit. God's presence was localized externally (although certainly still omnipresent) whereas now God abides, internally, in those who believe.

Have you considered how it can be that an Altar, an inanimate object, can “make holy” an offering that is placed upon it? Jesus clearly states that it is the altar that makes the sacrifice holy.

People still need visual aids. We are sensual beings, and God uses an incarnational principle. He did not have to come in the flesh, so that he could be seen with the eyes, and touched with the hands. He did this becuase of how He made us. Yes, God abides internally in those who believe. If those believers wish to worship HIm in a way that does not commend itself to you, why criticize them?

 

[ladygenesis]

Just one. I haven’t opened any others. The only other one I contributed to was short-lived - got locked b/c people can’t discuss this soberly or rationally.

There are some impostors here on this Board,who pretended to be catholics and you’re one of them!.To all Catholics here,please ignore JTBC.You are just wasting your precious time with her and her ilk.I f Im not mistaken,I read her posts in a anti Catholic website accusing the church as the whore of Babylon!