If atheists deny the existence of God

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An atheist once said to me, “Why do the disabled people exist when God wants good things in the world?”

…as if people like myself (I have a genetic disease) are an abomination in this world.

It’s quite a common argument based on eugenics. I’m sick and tired of hearing it.
 
Just reflecting that a common argument between Christians and atheists focusses on morality.

But whilst assent to some moral standard is central to Christianity, it is a means to an end and not an end in itself.

The end is to know, love and serve God.

That is, to be in a loving relationship with him and our fellow man.

Presumably an atheist has a different end in mind. I would be genuinely interested to hear what that is.
 
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Presumably an atheist has a different end in mind. I would be genuinely interested to hear what that is
I think you are giving the penny catechism answer to 'Why did God make me?. This of course begs the question of the existence of a creator God.

As an atheist I have nothing naturally in common with other atheists, any more than I have something in common with other people who do not believe in ghosts. It is just the lack of a belief. I know atheists who are extreme libertarians and atheists who are communists.

So speaking for this atheist alone: my end is to improve the society in which I live so that it is more just, more democratic, more egalitarian, fairer and provides for diversity within the limits of the common good. I decide what I mean exactly by all of those things through discussion with others. Yes, we choose what we consider good and bad. We do not identify things as good and bad according to the teachings of a religion. I have other ends too, such as living for a long time in reasonable health, seeing my grandchild grow up, making sure their families are well supported and learning Old English. I am less optimistic about the last one than some of the others!
 
I think you are giving the penny catechism answer to 'Why did God make me?. This of course begs the question of the existence of a creator God.
Thanks, they sound like very valuable ideals, even the Old English!

Regarding the Catechism, I think you do a disservice to theists in general and Catholics in particular by believing that this is a stock answer that people haven’t thought through.

I was an atheist before my conversion and was attracted by the clear, unambiguous and unitive message that the Catechism proposed.

As an adult, I chose from my own will to believe in that end…I was not coerced or forced to adopt it, it was my choice. What I don’t understand is that a small minority of atheists, and I’m not suggesting that you’re one of them, seem to think that I either have no right or am not intelligent enough to make that choice for myself.

I’m fortunate that I have a good friend who is an atheist and a Buddhist. We have learned over time to respect each other’s views rather than constantly challenge them, and we tick along just fine.

One more thing I’d really like to understand is why as an atheist you would want to use your valuable time on a Catholic website. I would never dream of going on an atheist forum. What are you hoping to achieve? Or do you just do it for the craic?
 
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As an adult, I chose from my own will to believe in that end…

My own approach is I think the opposite of that. I try hard not to ‘believe’ anything. I try only to draw conclusions from observations. But I think humans are hard-wired to ‘believe’ especially when the beliefs are associated with strong leadership, group membership and a perceived threat. I think this is part of what makes us human and is independent of anything like intelligence.
One more thing I’d really like to understand is why as an atheist you would want to use your valuable time on a Catholic website. I would never dream of going on an atheist forum. What are you hoping to achieve? Or do you just do it for the craic?
It’d be the craic, for sure! I’m really interested in belief and the processes by which people come to believe. The JWs always get a good hearing at my place but seem to return only once a decade! Most people on CAF seem happy to indulge my interest. Atheist forums are often where atheists are seen at their worst. I upset more people there than I do here - mostly in response to people whose ‘atheism’ is actually an emotional response to religion. As such it seems pretty religious to me. But most atheists don’t spend their time thinking about religion. I recognise my interest as unusual. But then I also follow groups that identify insects. Thanks for talking with me.
 
My own approach is I think the opposite of that. I try hard not to ‘believe’ anything. I try only to draw conclusions from observations. But I think humans are hard-wired to ‘believe’ especially when the beliefs are associated with strong leadership, group membership and a perceived threat. I think this is part of what makes us human and is independent of anything like intelligence.
Different folks, different strokes I guess. That’s what makes life so interesting!

You reminded me of something I was taught when I first came to faith…with science you see then you believe, with faith you believe and then you see. I suppose that’s why it’s called faith, which is another word for trust.

I respect many atheists, but I am against militant atheism. It’s almost fascist, wanting to deny people a choice in terms of how they get their spiritual needs met. By all means, educate people on atheism as much as religion, but removing that understanding of what I believe denies others the right to make a free choice.

See you around!
 
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FiveLinden:
Just reflecting that a common argument between Christians and atheists focusses on morality.

But whilst assent to some moral standard is central to Christianity, it is a means to an end and not an end in itself.

The end is to know, love and serve God.

That is, to be in a loving relationship with him and our fellow man.

Presumably an atheist has a different end in mind. I would be genuinely interested to hear what that is.
I guess you are asking about the reason why we are here. There is none. I’m an accident of nature. I got lucky in the celestial lottery. So I try to make the most of it. But gee, we don’t get a lot of time. I would prefer a second go at it so I could get it right next time. But unfortunately this is not a dress rehearsal so I have to live with the mistakes I have made and the things left undone.

It would be a good subject for a thread. If you could start again, what would be the one thing you’d change.
 
One more thing I’d really like to understand is why as an atheist you would want to use your valuable time on a Catholic website. I would never dream of going on an atheist forum. What are you hoping to achieve? Or do you just do it for the craic?
Yeah, the craic! I mean, who doesn’t enjoy a good argument?

And that’s a very Irish term. You from that part of the world? And stay away from atheist forums unless you’re into blood sports.
 
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I guess you are asking about the reason why we are here. There is none. I’m an accident of nature. I got lucky in the celestial lottery. So I try to make the most of it.
I’m genuinely interested when you say you got lucky in the celestial lottery. I just wonder if you have ever met with a seriously negative experience in your life, like a serious illness, poverty, abuse, an addiction for example…any situation when you have felt powerless.

What’s the worst life has thrown at you? And how did you handle it? I’m not interested in theory here, but real life experience.

This isn’t a ruse to further an argument, just a genuine question of interest, so that I can better understand how an atheist copes with these situations.
 
Gee, I don’t know. The fact that I have to think about it shows that I’ve been pretty lucky in life. There’s really nothing serious enough that’s gone wrong worth mentioning.
 
It’s very interesting how many of my seminary colleagues from the 90’s left the RCC for other denominations - including myself.
Why is that interesting? What were the reasons they left and which denomination did they join?
 
The same with many “deniers.” Does not matter the subject of the denial: God, the Holocaust, voter fraud, the heartbreak of psoriasis, you name it. The deniers are like haters in that they draw on a very limited repertoire of responses.
 
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I’m genuinely interested when you say you got lucky in the celestial lottery.
One of the things we non-religious have to ponder is the question of who ‘I’ am (and ‘you’ too, for that matter. While it seems obvious that there is an ‘I’ somewhere inside us I don’t really know of any scientific evidence of this. Instead the evidence we have is for the survival over generations of groups at different levels - families, sub-species, species, etc. ‘Individuals’ experience life as if we were real and significant, but looking objectively from the outside it is hard to see the this is the case.

The idea that it can live on, astral travel, be reincarnated or even be joined again to a resurrected body seems (to the religious generally, not just Catholics) to make sense.

Anyway, not expecting you to doubt that ‘you’ are real but most atheists who think about it find it hard to accomodate the sensation of being something more than our body with our non-belief.

Some of us (you @Freddy ?) hold to the unreality of an on-going self, but appreciate the fact that yes, this collection of meat and bones can indeed think, reason, reflect, learn and communicate to a qualitatively different level than other living things (at least those now existing).

The chances that I came into existence depended on everything happening to my ancestors just as it did. If, on the fateful night, my Dad had said to Mum ‘hang on, I forgot to put the cat out’ ‘I’ would never had existed. If any new human being resulted, it would not have been me. A different sperm would have entered the ovum. Maybe even a different ovum. And so on. Things would not have been genetically the same had my Dad not smoked a pipe. Or my Mum been a drinker. Or her Mum, or he great-great-great grandfather, Going back to my primevally slimy ancient ancestor, everything would have had to be just the same for my genetic make-up to be exactly the same.

This understanding of the contingencies that lie behind each human existence is what those us us who talk of celestial latter-winning have in mind.

And even of matter has a tendency to develop into life and has done so many, many times on many-many planets, we know that among the billions of species on earth only one lineage has developed intelligent consciousness. So even of there is life on other planets we have to take the number of planets with life and multiply it by one over the number of species that have ever lived to get a probability of there being other intelligent life.

So not only to we win the lottery by existing as an individual human, we win by being part of a species capable of thinking and making discussion forum posts!

Resolving this by saying ‘there is a God, and He loves me’ is a hypothesis that fits many facts and stops celebration of the lottery. But some of us think of that hypothesis as being without hard evidence.

So we get back to celebrating our win in the cosmic lotto! (Hope that is vaguely understandable!)
 
For the atheists here, how does the mental experience of consciousness arise from a purely material physical basis. How would free will and awareness of the real world around you arise from physical material that makes up rocks and other chemical elements?
 
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For the atheists here, how does the mental experience of consciousness arise from a purely material physical basis. How would free will and awareness of the real world around you arise from physical material that makes up rocks and other chemical elements?
I can only endorse what @Fivelinden has posted. But in answer to your specific question: Very slowly indeed.

We can see different levels of free will and consciousness around us in the animal world. If you scaled it along an axis from the ‘least conscious’ to the most then it would be logarithmic. You’d see huge jumps in ability, no less than between us and our ape cousins. So the ol’ argument that says ‘well, show me a chimp that can write a symphony’ simply doesn’t hold.

But are chimps for example self aware? I think that they are to some extent. But they don’t look at the stars and ponder their own existence. But that’s just a matter of degree. It’s not beyond possibility that if mankind died off then in a million years or so, apes might have evolved the ability to control fire and make simple stone tools. That it was our species was just a roll of the genetic dice.

Now I know full well that that is anethema to a Christian, so I don’t expect you to believe it. But after decades of thinking about these matters, it’s what I believe.
 
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po18guy:
In the 70s, Steely Dan released an album titled “Pretzel Logic.”
Really? Have you anything to say about what is being discussed?
Darn it, but it’s a good album. I’d forgotten all about it. Same album as ‘Ricky Don’t Lose That Number’ is from. Listening to it now.

If you look hard enough there’s something good in every post.
 
But are chimps for example self aware? I think that they are to some extent.
True, but the question was how does free will and awareness of the real world arise from pure matter such as the physical material that makes up rocks, etc.?
I don’t expect you to believe it
Animals have a degree of awareness, but how does it arise from a purely material basis?
 
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