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abcdefg
Guest
First that’s not a formal teaching, just everyday speaking. like Peter’s denial of Jesus. it’s not protected and can be wrong.
Do you believe earth comes first or light comes first?
Seasons first or grass first?
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Do you believe earth comes first or light comes first?
Seasons first or grass first?
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Humans and apes come from a common ancestor. Humans did not come from monkeys.
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abcdefg
Guest
Semper Fi:
Why playing word games? In one thread someone went to great lengths to show me apes includes humans. now “humans and apes”
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PhilVaz
Guest
abc << Do you believe earth comes first or light comes first? Seasons first or grass first? >>
Why do you worry about such things?
Do you believe the earth is the unmovable center of the universe, and flat like a circular disk with a hard-vault firmament or domed ceiling, that has windows, doors, gates, and stories of stairs, with the stars very small and near objects that were placed “in” that hard-vault firmament? The Bible seems to say so:
The ancient Hebrews, like their older and more powerful neighbors, the Babylonians and the Egyptians, were flat-earthers. The Hebrew cosmology is never actually spelled out in the Bible but, even without knowledge of the Babylonian system upon which it is patterned, it can be read between the lines of the Old Testament. The Genesis creation story itself suggests the relative size and importance of the earth and the celestial bodies by specifying their order of creation. The earth was created on the first day, and it was “without form and void” (Gen 1:2). On the second day a vault – the “firmament” of the King James Bible – was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault (Gen 1:6-8). Not until the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were placed “in,” not “above,” the vault (Gen 1:14-17). The sizes of these bodies are not specified, but they had to be small, as Joshua later commanded the sun to stand still “in Gibeon” and the moon “in the Vale of Aijalon” (Josh 10:12).
The Bible repeatedly speaks of the “ends” of the earth. Sometimes the word in Hebrew is ephes, which means “end, extreme limits, nothingness.” Other times it is qatsah or qetsev, which means, again, “end, extremity.” Deuteronomy 13:7, for instance, uses the expression “from one end of the earth to the other end.” The same expression, or a reference to the “end of the earth,” occurs in Deuteronomy 28:49, 64; 33:17; 1 Samuel 2:10; Psalm 19:4; 22:27; 46:9; 48:10; 59:13; 65:5; 67:7; 98:3; 135:7; Proverbs 17:24; 30:4; Job 28:24; 37:3; Isaiah 5:26; 24:16; 40:28; 41:5; 42:10; 45:22; 48:20; 49:6; 52:10; 62:11; Jeremiah 10:13; 16:19; 25:33; Micah 5:4.
Moreover, not only does the Bible indicate that the earth is flat and has ends, but it also teaches that the earth is square and has corners. Isaiah 11:12 says that God will “gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Ezekiel 7:2 says that “the end is coming on the four corners of the earth.” See also Revelation 7:1; 20:8, etc.
Other passages complete the picture. God “sits enthroned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers” (Isa 40:21-22; cf. 45:12; 48:13). He also “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven” (Job 22:12-14), which vault is “hard as a mirror of cast metal” (Job 37:18; cf. 9:8). The roof of the sky has “windows” that God can open to let the waters above fall to the surface as rain. The Bible clearly speaks of the “windows” of heaven (Gen 7:10f; 8:2; 2 Kings 7:2, 19; Isa 24:18f; Jer 51:15f; Mal 3:10); the “doors” in heaven that are “shut up” (1 Kings 8:35; 2 Chron 6:26; 7:13; Psalm 78:23; Rev 4:1; 11:6; 19:11); heaven has “gates” (Gen 28:17; Lev 26:19) and stories of stairs (Amos 9:6). A study of these passages will indicate that rain and food come through heaven’s windows, etc.
The topography of the earth isn’t specified, but Daniel “saw a tree of great height at the center of the earth…reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds” or “to the end of the whole earth” (Dan 4:10-11). Such visibility would not be possible on a spherical earth, but might be expected if the earth were flat.
“It is He who sits above the circle of the earth [or is enthroned above the vault of the earth], and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” (Isaiah 40:22 NASB)
“Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.” (1 Chron 16:30)
“The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.” (Psalm 93:1, also 96:10; 104:5)
See also Psalm 8:4; 19:4-7; 104:19; 119:90; Ecclesiastes 1:5; 2 Kings 20:9-11; 2 Chron 32:24; Isaiah 38:7-8; 45:18; Joshua 10:12-14; Judges 5:31; Job 9:7; Habakkuk 3:11; James 1:11-12; and in the deuterocanon Sirach 43:1-10; 46:3-4; Wisdom 7:18-19.
Now I understand some people disagree about the biblical details here, but at least it is a plausible “biblical” argument. I don’t worry about such “scientific” details as you may get from the Bible. Neither do the Popes, neither does the Catechism.
Phil P
Why do you worry about such things?
Do you believe the earth is the unmovable center of the universe, and flat like a circular disk with a hard-vault firmament or domed ceiling, that has windows, doors, gates, and stories of stairs, with the stars very small and near objects that were placed “in” that hard-vault firmament? The Bible seems to say so:
The ancient Hebrews, like their older and more powerful neighbors, the Babylonians and the Egyptians, were flat-earthers. The Hebrew cosmology is never actually spelled out in the Bible but, even without knowledge of the Babylonian system upon which it is patterned, it can be read between the lines of the Old Testament. The Genesis creation story itself suggests the relative size and importance of the earth and the celestial bodies by specifying their order of creation. The earth was created on the first day, and it was “without form and void” (Gen 1:2). On the second day a vault – the “firmament” of the King James Bible – was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault (Gen 1:6-8). Not until the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were placed “in,” not “above,” the vault (Gen 1:14-17). The sizes of these bodies are not specified, but they had to be small, as Joshua later commanded the sun to stand still “in Gibeon” and the moon “in the Vale of Aijalon” (Josh 10:12).
The Bible repeatedly speaks of the “ends” of the earth. Sometimes the word in Hebrew is ephes, which means “end, extreme limits, nothingness.” Other times it is qatsah or qetsev, which means, again, “end, extremity.” Deuteronomy 13:7, for instance, uses the expression “from one end of the earth to the other end.” The same expression, or a reference to the “end of the earth,” occurs in Deuteronomy 28:49, 64; 33:17; 1 Samuel 2:10; Psalm 19:4; 22:27; 46:9; 48:10; 59:13; 65:5; 67:7; 98:3; 135:7; Proverbs 17:24; 30:4; Job 28:24; 37:3; Isaiah 5:26; 24:16; 40:28; 41:5; 42:10; 45:22; 48:20; 49:6; 52:10; 62:11; Jeremiah 10:13; 16:19; 25:33; Micah 5:4.
Moreover, not only does the Bible indicate that the earth is flat and has ends, but it also teaches that the earth is square and has corners. Isaiah 11:12 says that God will “gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Ezekiel 7:2 says that “the end is coming on the four corners of the earth.” See also Revelation 7:1; 20:8, etc.
Other passages complete the picture. God “sits enthroned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers” (Isa 40:21-22; cf. 45:12; 48:13). He also “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven” (Job 22:12-14), which vault is “hard as a mirror of cast metal” (Job 37:18; cf. 9:8). The roof of the sky has “windows” that God can open to let the waters above fall to the surface as rain. The Bible clearly speaks of the “windows” of heaven (Gen 7:10f; 8:2; 2 Kings 7:2, 19; Isa 24:18f; Jer 51:15f; Mal 3:10); the “doors” in heaven that are “shut up” (1 Kings 8:35; 2 Chron 6:26; 7:13; Psalm 78:23; Rev 4:1; 11:6; 19:11); heaven has “gates” (Gen 28:17; Lev 26:19) and stories of stairs (Amos 9:6). A study of these passages will indicate that rain and food come through heaven’s windows, etc.
The topography of the earth isn’t specified, but Daniel “saw a tree of great height at the center of the earth…reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds” or “to the end of the whole earth” (Dan 4:10-11). Such visibility would not be possible on a spherical earth, but might be expected if the earth were flat.
“It is He who sits above the circle of the earth [or is enthroned above the vault of the earth], and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” (Isaiah 40:22 NASB)
“Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.” (1 Chron 16:30)
“The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.” (Psalm 93:1, also 96:10; 104:5)
See also Psalm 8:4; 19:4-7; 104:19; 119:90; Ecclesiastes 1:5; 2 Kings 20:9-11; 2 Chron 32:24; Isaiah 38:7-8; 45:18; Joshua 10:12-14; Judges 5:31; Job 9:7; Habakkuk 3:11; James 1:11-12; and in the deuterocanon Sirach 43:1-10; 46:3-4; Wisdom 7:18-19.
Now I understand some people disagree about the biblical details here, but at least it is a plausible “biblical” argument. I don’t worry about such “scientific” details as you may get from the Bible. Neither do the Popes, neither does the Catechism.
Phil P
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abcdefg
Guest
End of earth are places not readily reachable. In modern days, you can take it as antarctica. in the old days there’re much more place unfit for living.
4 corners of earth are just extending very far along the 4 directions (N E S W or NE NW SW SE or any critiria you choose) what’s surprising about that?
I have no problem believing earth is in the middle of the universe. Currently I’m still reading articles on this.
If St. Peter understood earth is flat, it still had no theological consequences. just like he would have told you sqrt(-1) or even 1-2 didn’t exist (we now know it’s i and -1 respectively).
the origin of man is difference. creationism holds God actively created man in every aspect from beginning. while evolution holds God didn’t take an active role at least in one aspect(soul, body, etc or a combination of some)
4 corners of earth are just extending very far along the 4 directions (N E S W or NE NW SW SE or any critiria you choose) what’s surprising about that?
I have no problem believing earth is in the middle of the universe. Currently I’m still reading articles on this.
If St. Peter understood earth is flat, it still had no theological consequences. just like he would have told you sqrt(-1) or even 1-2 didn’t exist (we now know it’s i and -1 respectively).
the origin of man is difference. creationism holds God actively created man in every aspect from beginning. while evolution holds God didn’t take an active role at least in one aspect(soul, body, etc or a combination of some)
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PhilVaz
Guest
abc << I have no problem believing earth is in the middle of the universe. Currently I’m still reading articles on this. >>
OK now we’re getting somewhere. But you aren’t taking the Bible completely literally: flat as a pancake round disk, hard-domed firmament tent sky, windows, doors, gates, stairs, along with the non-rotating, non-revolving, fixed center. Mark (truth seek) will work on you I’m sure.
Phil P
OK now we’re getting somewhere. But you aren’t taking the Bible completely literally: flat as a pancake round disk, hard-domed firmament tent sky, windows, doors, gates, stairs, along with the non-rotating, non-revolving, fixed center. Mark (truth seek) will work on you I’m sure.
Phil P
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PhilVaz
Guest
abc << while evolution holds God didn’t take an active role at least in one aspect(soul, body, etc or a combination of some) >>
You apparently don’t understand evolution says nothing about God, neither for or against. Neither does geology, astronomy, biology, geography, meteorology, chemistry. What will it take for you to read the Pope on Genesis?
These creation-evolution threads are hopeless, a waste of time.
Phil P
You apparently don’t understand evolution says nothing about God, neither for or against. Neither does geology, astronomy, biology, geography, meteorology, chemistry. What will it take for you to read the Pope on Genesis?
These creation-evolution threads are hopeless, a waste of time.
Phil P
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abcdefg
Guest
You apparently don’t understand tradition. papal infallibility.
Cardinal on Genesis. not Pope. not protected by Holy Ghost. no authority. what can you say?
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abcdefg
Guest
you should know discussing about different opinions at any board is always a waste of time. have you seen any homosexual,abortion supporters realize their error after discussion?
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thistle
Guest
What is John Paul II saying about evolution in his Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996?
www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html
www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html
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abcdefg
Guest
Did JPII say Creationism/ID is wrong? not compatible with Catholicism?
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petra
Guest
Okay, no prob.
But why is it not offensive to you to be called a mammal?
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petra
Guest
abcdefg said:
How do you reconcile the order of creation in Genesis chapter 1 with Genesis chapter 2? They are in conflict.
Of course, I am not at all implying either are in error. But they “seem” to be in contradiction for the same reason you think that Genesis chapter 1 and the scientific record “seem” to be in conflict.
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thistle
Guest
Why are you speaking like that. It was a genuine question on my part as I read the letter but didn’t really understand it. No need to be sarcastic.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Any person who adheres to a Judea-Christian faith knows that God is one intimately involved in our lives. I’m not sure what the points of ab’s post was.
I do think that the post below by Isadore where he used an analogy on why the Genesis story doesn’t talk about amino acids, dna, etc. is appropriate. God didn’t reveal Himself in Scripture to give us information on “how” but to give us information on “what”. I don’t write a letter telling my family about my vacation on the mechanics on how the car transported us but on what we saw and experienced. I’m at a loss on why some people expect that God would feel compelled to reveal the mechanics to us.
From a revelation standpoint, the only point of Genesis is to make it clear that God made the universe out of nothing, He breathed His Spirit into us which distinguishes us from everything else in creation, and He made us very good and in His image. Until we get to Heaven, we may never know if He used “evolution” in such a way that the Earth “developed” and then created Adam and Eve and breathed the Spirit into them or if He allowed humanity to develop to a certain level before He breathed life into humanoids.
The Church rejects any evolutionary theory that asserts that human life is a random accident. After that, the debate is among the scientists to give information (some factual and some theory based on best available facts) on the matter. Science is just a branch with which we can come to understand God and excercise our God-given obligation to have dominion in responsible stewarship over God’s creation.
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steveandersen
Guest
I fail to seen the equivalence of the two principals. The Bible tells us that we were made from the stuff of the earth and at some point we had souls “breathed” into us.
The theology as I understand it is that God made the heavens and the earth, and all that is seen and unseen. How he did that was never specified.
Although now that I think of it, evolution is such a slow process that it seems clear that it comes under the “unseen” portion of creation. Thank you for helping me understand that.
Roughly it is “the way we’ve always done it”
things that are not written in the scriptures but who’s origins are so far back that we can accept them as the way the Apostles did things.
The Google translator did a very poor job and I really couldn’t understand the text on that site. But since evolution is a matter of science and not theology the notion of adjusting theology to fit culture doesn’t seem to apply here.
I mean the person who coined the concept of the Big Bang was a priest and the geologist who did the early work that demonstrated the age of the earth was beatified (not for his geology work but still hardly and evil atheist) so I’m still not sure why this matter upsets you so.
You obviously feel strongly about this and I mean no affront to you but personally I see no problem with my interpretation and it is in accordance with the CCC
There are plenty of other things I’m wrong about …but this one I think I got a good grip on.
You are perfectly free to adhere to a literal 6 day creation. It doesn’t make either one of us more or less Catholic.
Generally it is considered bad netiquette to berate someone for typos but when you take someone to task for improper capitalization in a sentence that is improperly capitalized the irony meter goes off the scale.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Just exactly who said “the human eye has evolved 40 or more times?”
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steveandersen
Guest
vern humphrey:
The human eye has the same evolutionary origins as all land vertebrates
For invertebrates however there are many configurations of the eye many with separate origins.
Insects, arachnids, mollusks etc all completely independently evolved
Although since light sensitivity is so useful there very well may have been light sensitive spots on some ur-invertebrate. I don’t recall all the early branching
I saw a citation that claimed 45 separate evolutions of an eye
I’ll look for that link
I said “an eye” not “the human eye” (or at least that is what I meant to say. If I said Human eye I appologize)
The human eye has the same evolutionary origins as all land vertebrates
For invertebrates however there are many configurations of the eye many with separate origins.
Insects, arachnids, mollusks etc all completely independently evolved
Although since light sensitivity is so useful there very well may have been light sensitive spots on some ur-invertebrate. I don’t recall all the early branching
I saw a citation that claimed 45 separate evolutions of an eye
I’ll look for that link
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vern_humphrey
Guest
My question was addressed to AquinasXVI. I did a search on this thread, and only he (and I in questionning him) use the phrase “human eye.” I don’t find any post where you mention the human eye (as distinct from eyes in general.)
Parallel evolution is quite common – for example fish, birds, insects, mammals and dinosaurs all evolved flying ability independently.
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Della
Guest
For those who think I was advocating the “clockmaker’s” version of evolution–I wasn’t. Please read my words more carefully, as Petra did with her excellent response below:
Thank you, Petra. This is what I was trying to express in shortened form. I too believe this as did people like J. R. R. Tolkien. He expressed this idea quite eloquently in The Silmarillion and his other writings. He used music as the force that drives the universe created by the “secret fire” of God. Quite beautiful and enriching, yes?
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