If God became man

[PietroPaolo]

Wasn’t the human nature of Jesus fully Divine also? He was fully human and fully Divine correct?

No, that would be impossible. A nature can’t be human and divine, but a person can have more than one nature.

So when His human nature was killed, His Divine nature was also killed, otherwise He was not fully either of the natures…

No, His Divine nature is impassible, it can’t suffer, and immortal, it can’t die. Jesus could suffer and die b/c He took on a nature that made those things possible - a human nature.

Was Jesus the PERSON killed?

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Yes, Jesus (the Divine Person) was killed. Persons can be killed, natures can’t. When Jesus was killed, because Jesus = God, God was killed.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;13026545:

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. . . Jesus was . . . . God. Thus killing the person Jesus is killing a Divine Person. Thus killing the Divine Person Jesus is “killing God.”

Killing means the death of the physical body. So, since Jesus is God and He was killed in the flesh, yes that would be Deicide.
Remember, even as with homicide, the body is killed since the spirit is eternal.

So if Jesus is eternal, how is his physical death a sacrifice?
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No, killing anyone only kills the body. You cannot kill the soul of even an ordinary human being. The sacrifice only consists in killing the body, the soul cannot be killed.

 

[PietroPaolo]

No, killing anyone only kills the body. You cannot kill the soul of even an ordinary human being. The sacrifice only consists in killing the body, the soul cannot be killed.

Are you suggesting that no one can be killed, that murder doesn’t exist, because no one can kill someone’s soul? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you…

 

[Ignatius]

Are you suggesting that no one can be killed, that murder doesn’t exist, because no one can kill someone’s soul? .

No, I was answering the posts and assertions before. Read through the thread and you’ll understand.

 

[Usagi]

No, I was answering the posts and assertions before. Read through the thread and you’ll understand.

If I may try to clarify, Ignatius…

What Ignatius is saying is that none of us entirely cease to exist upon death. The body dies, but the soul lives on and cannot be killed. That happens even when I, a mere human, die.

So it does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice that God the Son did not literally cease to exist for three days. His human soul (inextricably united to His divine Person) also did not cease to exist, just as mine or yours will not. But they were violently separated from His body, which is what “death” means to Christians and most anyone else who believes in some kind of spiritual survival after death.

Usagi

 

[Servant19]

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So given all this, and Jesus KNOWING that He lives on, and ESPECIALLY knowing that even His body will not be destroyed (since it was resurrected) what exactly is the sacrifice here?

It’s like me saying that you can go aead and chop off my arm, “I will sacrifice it for you” knowing full well that I will grow another one tomorrow.

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[Bahman]

No, that doesn’t follow. God died, in the Second Person of the Trinity, through His human nature, but not in His Divine Nature. God the Father and God the HS, didn’t die at all, and, even the dead, in His Human Nature, God the Son still existed (in fact He descended into hell, then rose again).

So what happened for trinity when a person dies?

 

[openmind77]

…

So given all this, and Jesus KNOWING that He lives on, and ESPECIALLY knowing that even His body will not be destroyed (since it was resurrected) what exactly is the sacrifice here?

It’s like me saying that you can go aead and chop off my arm, “I will sacrifice it for you” knowing full well that I will grow another one tomorrow.

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The sacrifice is not in the death since he already knew he was going to be resurrected.

The sacrifice is in the suffering, the torture, the humiliation he went through both before the crucifixion and while dying on the cross.

Jesus, the human, did actually feel the pain and suffering during this process.

 

[Ignatius]

If I may try to clarify, Ignatius…

What Ignatius is saying is that none of us entirely cease to exist upon death. The body dies, but the soul lives on and cannot be killed. That happens even when I, a mere human, die.

So it does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice that God the Son did not literally cease to exist for three days. His human soul (inextricably united to His divine Person) also did not cease to exist, just as mine or yours will not. But they were violently separated from His body, which is what “death” means to Christians and most anyone else who believes in some kind of spiritual survival after death.

Usagi

Thank you sir. Yes, that’s precisely it. If I give my life it is truly a sacrifice, because my life is precious to me. The Old Testament sacrifices where sacrifices because the one making the sacrifice of something of value, be it grain, libation, or whatever he was giving up. Even if he were not dying, he was still making a sacrifice. It is an even greater sacrifice to give up ones bodily life.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

It is an even greater sacrifice to give up ones bodily life.

What about giving up one’s eternal bliss to help someone else to get into heaven? Since everyone must die (physically) it does not seem to be such a great sacrifice. Now, giving up the eternal happiness in heaven… that would be a tremendous sacrifice. Don’t you agree?

 

[davidv]

What about giving up one’s eternal bliss to help someone else to get into heaven?

I think this is an invalid question. No one gives up eternal bliss to help another get into heaven. If fact, doing so, assists one’s achieving eternal bliss, assuming that eternal bliss = heaven.

Since everyone must die (physically) it does not seem to be such a great sacrifice. Now, giving up the eternal happiness in heaven… that would be a tremendous sacrifice. Don’t you agree?

No I don’t agree. These statements ignore the reality of spiritual death.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

I think this is an invalid question. No one gives up eternal bliss to help another get into heaven. If fact, doing so, assists one’s achieving eternal bliss, assuming that eternal bliss = heaven.

The conquistadores took away the newborns from the native people, baptized them, and immediately afterwards, killed them. By baptizing them they washed away the “stigma” of the original sin, and by killing them they ensured that they could not commit any sins. The result, they died in the state of grace, and as such they were immediately admitted into heaven. At least that is what the church teaches. So the conquistadores (all devout Catholics!) acted in the best interest of those children, which is the highest form of love.

But what about the price? They committed a murder, and as such they gave up the possibility to get into heaven. If that is the case then they gave up much more than this life… they gave up their eternal life in heaven - therefore they deserve the ultimate reward… to be admitted into heaven. “There is no greater love…”

No I don’t agree. These statements ignore the reality of spiritual death.

Don’t play with words. Death is the cessation of life. “Spiritual” death is a meaningless combination of words.

 

[fhansen]

If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

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In a sense, yes. The light that came into the world was God, that’s Who Jesus revealed, because that’s Who Jesus is- and man preferred darkness.

 

[Servant19]

In a sense, yes. The light that came into the world was God, that’s Who Jesus revealed, because that’s Who Jesus is- and man preferred darkness.

Can you please elaborate your understanding here fhansen ?

Did a few individuals actually kill God? Can a creation kill its Creator?

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[Servant19]

The sacrifice is not in the death since he already knew he was going to be resurrected.

The sacrifice is in the suffering, the torture, the humiliation he went through both before the crucifixion and while dying on the cross.

Jesus, the human, did actually feel the pain and suffering during this process.

I may be incorrect but Christian thinking is very much about the sacrifice being in the death. The Cross is revered for a reason, not the whip and torture implements.

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[fhansen]

Can you please elaborate your understanding here fhansen ?

Did a few individuals actually kill God? Can a creation kill its Creator?

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Sure. In the person of Jesus Christ God experienced suffering and physical death, as we all will.

 

[Servant19]

Sure. In the person of Jesus Christ God experienced suffering and physical death, as we all will.

I’m still a touch confused dear friend. God “experienced” suffering and death, but did He “actually” die? As in, was God in His whole entirety killed?

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[fhansen]

I’m still a touch confused dear friend. God “experienced” suffering and death, but did He “actually” die? As in, was God in His whole entirety killed?

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No more than yours or mine will be at death. God possesses eternal existence by nature. We possess it as a gift from Him.

 

[Spelf]

I would say the sacrifice could be understood - whether or not he knew that he would overcome it (which of course he did) - as the creator entering creation and suffering the greatest of humiliations and in violent death, and in so-doing reconciled humanity and the world to himself. His own death and his own blood being spilled worked to satisfy by filling many of the mechanisms he had previously showed the Jewish people.

I think there’s a mixup here with your conceptualization of death. God died, as he was Jesus in the flesh and Jesus died. However, “death” is not the end of being, and neither human nor God is fully their physical form. If I were to die, my spirit (that is, my soul) would not be destroyed or cease to be. In the same way (though somewhat more complicated, of course), God died on the cross but God did not cease to be any more than you or I cease to be when we die.

 

[Usagi]

I’m still a touch confused dear friend. God “experienced” suffering and death, but did He “actually” die? As in, was God in His whole entirety killed?

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What do you mean by “die” and “killed” here?

For humans, death means “soul separated from body.” That did happen in the case of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so it is correct to say that God died/was killed. As far as we know, that is the only way that God could die, since outside of the Incarnation He possessed neither body nor human soul.

If you mean “Did the entire Trinity (or even just the Son) cease to exist for a time,” then no, that did not happen. But in Christian belief, we humans don’t completely cease to exist upon death either, so it seems odd to say that God didn’t really die unless something happened to Him that never even happens to us when we die.

It’s sort of like the argument over Mary as “Mother of God.” Of course Mary is not the source of God’s existence – quite the other way around, in fact. But He (as Jesus) was conceived in her body, carried there for the usual term, and born from her. So it is entirely correct to say that God was born and has a human mother, even though His existence did not begin with her. Likewise, it is correct to say that God died, just as we do, even though that did not mean the cessation of His existence even temporarily.

Usagi