If God became man

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;13038864:

Yes, Christians, Muslims and Hebrews all know that God is omnipotent.
God is above all of His creation but He chose to enter into His creation. Why? Because He is All Merciful. He mercifully allows us, His creation, to be closer to Him.

Think about it like this. An artist can create a painting. He is higher than the painting. Some artists have chosen to paint themselves into their paintings. That does not stop them from being the artistic creator of the painting, they are still at the same time creating the painting and in the painting. It is because

they are greater than their painting that they can to do that. The painting cannot bring the creator into itself, but the creator can paint himself into His painting precisely because it is his creation.

The painting does not hold the attributes of artist any more.

A painting, which is a human creation, unlike the Divine Creation, cannot hold something. Because the painting is a mere human creation it is limited by the power of the one that created it. God can do with His Divine Creation whatever can be done with a Divine Creation, including enter into it.

The painting is just image but there is nothing inside. So can the painting both be a painting and an artist?

Because the painting is a mere human creation it is limited by the power of the one that created it.

And you also you do not answer the conflicts which I pointed.

(My answers in blue) Hmm, I see those more as Non Sequiturs than conflicts, but I address them below.

So do God behave cruelly? But if he wish He can do!
The Christian teaching is that God All Merciful.

Do god can be a tree or a car? If He wish He can!
Those are inanimate objects, God is an Intelligent being and did not say he would become an inanimate object. Since man is made in the very image and likeness of God, it is not a logical contradiction for God to become man, the very image of Himself.

Can God make Himself blind or deaf or powerless? If not but God can do what ever wish!
But he never said he would become blind, deaf or powerless.

Do God can get marry? If He do not marry so isn’t God omnipotent?
That does not remove his omnipotence, He is still omnipotent.

 

[fhansen]

Maybe I am mistaken:

Coming to the knowledge of God is the purpose of our existence, not merely knowledge about God, which is the beginning of it all, but direct, intuitive knowledge* of *Him, which is the end. This is also called “seeing” God.

The Church teaches two things about this knowledge 1) man cannot obtain it on his own; it’s completely above our natural ability. Reason can ascertain the existence of God but cannot arrive at the intuitive knowledge of God. That’s a matter of grace, necessitating “the light of glory”, as theologians put it, a supernatural gift from the only one Who can give it. 2) Man, whether in heaven or on earth, cannot know God comprehensively-presumably we’d have to be God in order for that to be possible and the distance between us and Him is infinite. IOW, the knowledge is strictly *enabled *by Him, and complete insofar as it fulfills our needs. Faith, itself, is a supernatural foretaste of this knowledge, but it’s fully experienced or consummated, so to speak, in the next life.

184 “Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come” (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2). CCC

Additionally, according to Aquinas and others, God can grant the experience of His immediate presence-this full knowledge- here and now, at moments, for His purposes, an experience some saints testified about. In any case, this knowledge or vision, even in “dimmer” form, is that which is spoken of in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:

**No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD. **Jer 31:34

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Cor 13:12

Again, this knowledge is not a natural knowledge-which is probably what most of the sources you referenced are speaking of. It’s an “intellectual vision” that depends on grace-man cannot attain to it on his own. It begins with faith:

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matt 11:27

Let me re-emphasize; without grace, man’s knowledge of God is only “head-knowledge”, allegorical at best. And a believer’s experience here on earth may well remain much that way-depending.

More from the Catechism:
**35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

52 God, who “dwells in unapproachable light”, wants to communicate his own divine life to the men he freely created, in order to adopt them as his sons in his only-begotten Son.3 By revealing himself God wishes to make them capable of responding to him, and of knowing him and of loving him far beyond their own natural capacity.

53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously "by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other"4 and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons repeatedly speaks of this divine pedagogy using the image of God and man becoming accustomed to one another: The Word of God dwelt in man and became the Son of man in order to accustom man to perceive God and to accustom God to dwell in man, according to the Father’s pleasure.

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:

When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:
How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends. **
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

 

[fhansen]

cont’

FROM THE SUMMA:
**On the contrary, It is written: “We shall see Him as He is” (1 John 2:2).

I answer that, Since everything is knowable according as it is actual, God, Who is pure act without any admixture of potentiality, is in Himself supremely knowable. But what is supremely knowable in itself, may not be knowable to a particular intellect, on account of the excess of the intelligible object above the intellect; as, for example, the sun, which is supremely visible, cannot be seen by the bat by reason of its excess of light.
Therefore some who considered this, held that no created intellect can see the essence of God. This opinion, however, is not tenable. For as the ultimate beatitude of man consists in the use of his highest function, which is the operation of his intellect; if we suppose that the created intellect could never see God, it would either never attain to beatitude, or its beatitude would consist in something else beside God; which is opposed to faith. For the ultimate perfection of the rational creature is to be found in that which is the principle of its being; since a thing isperfect so far as it attains to its principle. Further the same opinion is also against reason. For there resides in every man a natural desire to know the cause of any effect which he sees; and thence arises wonder in men. But if the intellect of the rational creature could not reach so far as to the first cause of things, the natural desire would remain void.Hence it must be absolutely granted that the blessed see the essence of God.**

Not the easiest topic-but just so you know

 

[hasantas]

=Ignatius;13041342]A painting, which is a human creation, unlike the Divine Creation, cannot hold something. Because the painting is a mere human creation it is limited by the power of the one that created it. God can do with His Divine Creation whatever can be done with a Divine Creation, including enter into it.

Because the painting is a mere human creation it is limited by the power of the one that created it.

So God create everything and everything can hold eternal attributes of God? For intance a stone?

God do not get into anything because God is eternal and infinite. Getting into matter conflict with eternal attributes. So you say if God wish He can do because He can do everything! If God can be man so God can be a car or a tree. Just yes or no?

My answers in blue) Hmm, I see those more as Non Sequiturs than conflicts, but I address them below.

So do God behave cruelly? But if he wish He can do!
The Christian teaching is that God All Merciful.)

Do god can be a tree or a car? If He wish He can!
(Those are inanimate objects, God is an Intelligent being and did not say he would become an inanimate object. Since man is made in the very image and likeness of God, it is not a logical contradiction for God to become man, the very image of Himself.)

Can God make Himself blind or deaf or powerless? If not but God can do what ever wish!
(But he never said he would become blind, deaf or powerless.)

Do God can get marry? If He do not marry so isn’t God omnipotent?
(That does not remove his omnipotence, He is still omnipotent.)

God is all mercifull very true so God never beaheve cruelly. Just like that God is eternal and so God never get into matter or time.

Shape is not an obstacle for God. So do God can be a tree or a car? It is more simple than being a man. Just yes or no? God did not say He would be a man but people said God became a man!

Do God can get marry? And do God can create a woman to marry? Just yes or no? It is more like God can be a man or not!

 

[hasantas]

Thank you for your personal misinterpretation of Scripture.

Could you give the right meaning?

 

[fhansen]

Could you give the right meaning?

Just read the catechism of the church that wrote the part of the book you’re interpreting.

 

[hasantas]

It wasn’t for His sake-it’s for ours, so that we know, in no uncertain terms , that God knows and cares about who we are, that He isn’t beneath living as He created us to live, including the suffering that we all inevitably endure to one degree or another.

He did save Himself-that’s the point-He just came down and showed us-proved to us-eternal life and the pathway there. We follow Him through death unto life.

To show me that He already forgives -to show me how much He loves- that He would even suffer and die an agonizing death if that’s what it takes to show me that.

Nothing’s impossible for God. He can certainly stoop lower; He can certainly enter into His own creation, the work of His hands, if He desires. God sanctified His creation, in a way, by becoming part of it, to show just how initmately connected to it all that He is.

If God can suffer so God can die or God can be deaf or God can be blind or God can be powerless etc … But those do not sound as eternal attributes?

God is all mercifull so God wish to save us. But being a man is not the right way. If God suffer and do that work for human so what will human earn? Do not human have to struggle to deserve something?

 

[hasantas]

Just read the catechism of the church that wrote the part of the book you’re interpreting.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (NIV)

1. There are some Trinitarians who insist that the term “Son of God” implies a pre-existence and that Jesus is God. Once the doctrine of pre-existence was propounded, a vocabulary had to be developed to support it, and thus non-biblical phrases such as “eternally begotten” and “eternal Son” were invented. Not only are these phrases not in the Bible or secular literature, they do not make sense. By definition, a “Son” has a beginning, and by definition, “eternal” means “without beginning.” To put the two words together when they never appear together in the Bible or in common usage is doing nothing more than creating a nonsensical term. The meaning of “Son of God” is literal: God the Father impregnated Mary, and nine months later Mary had a son, Jesus. Thus, Jesus is “the Son of God.” “This is how the birth [Greek = “beginning”] of Jesus Christ came about,” says Matthew 1:18, and that occurred about 2000 years ago, not in “eternity past.”
2. When the phrase “Son of God” is studied and compared with phrases about the Father, a powerful truth is revealed. The phrase “Son of God” is common in the New Testament, but the phrase “God the Son” never appears. In contrast, phrases like “God the Father,” “God our Father,” “the God and Father” and “God, even the Father” occur many times. Are we to believe that the Son is actually God just as the Father is, but the Father is plainly called “God, the Father” over and over and yet the Son is not even once called “God the Son”? This is surely strong evidence that Jesus is not actually “God the Son” at all.
   …

more

biblicalunitarian.com

 

[fhansen]

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (NIV)

1. There are some Trinitarians who insist that the term “Son of God” implies a pre-existence and that Jesus is God. Once the doctrine of pre-existence was propounded, a vocabulary had to be developed to support it, and thus non-biblical phrases such as “eternally begotten” and “eternal Son” were invented. Not only are these phrases not in the Bible or secular literature, they do not make sense. By definition, a “Son” has a beginning, and by definition, “eternal” means “without beginning.” To put the two words together when they never appear together in the Bible or in common usage is doing nothing more than creating a nonsensical term. The meaning of “Son of God” is literal: God the Father impregnated Mary, and nine months later Mary had a son, Jesus. Thus, Jesus is “the Son of God.” “This is how the birth [Greek = “beginning”] of Jesus Christ came about,” says Matthew 1:18, and that occurred about 2000 years ago, not in “eternity past.”
2. When the phrase “Son of God” is studied and compared with phrases about the Father, a powerful truth is revealed. The phrase “Son of God” is common in the New Testament, but the phrase “God the Son” never appears. In contrast, phrases like “God the Father,” “God our Father,” “the God and Father” and “God, even the Father” occur many times. Are we to believe that the Son is actually God just as the Father is, but the Father is plainly called “God, the Father” over and over and yet the Son is not even once called “God the Son”? This is surely strong evidence that Jesus is not actually “God the Son” at all.
   …

more

biblicalunitarian.com

LOL. Scripture can be read a variety of ways-to support a variety of beliefs or interpretations. And people will always find a way to support their *preferred *belief as well. But the doctrine of the Trinity is not a preferred belief-it would be much easier to dismiss it-and the Church has had ample opportunity to do so. The “problem” is that the Church is going by her *experience *of Jesus-the revelation as it occurred back at the time-all He said and did, not all of which was even recorded BTW. The faith of the Church simply does not come from the bible first of all-as if one could pick up the bible 500 years, 1500 years, or 2000 years after the fact- and understand with certainty the subject matter it deals with merely by using whatever one considers to be the best exegetic methodology available. Ain’t gonna happen.

 

[Servant19]

A painting, which is a human creation, unlike the Divine Creation, cannot hold something. Because the painting is a mere human creation it is limited by the power of the one that created it. God can do with His Divine Creation whatever can be done with a Divine Creation, including enter into it.

Because the painting is a mere human creation it is limited by the power of the one that created it.

While I am comfortable in believing that Jesus is God (this conforms with Baha’i teaching), I am wondering how an “Incarnation” of God in a human temple can conform with the Jewish God since:

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

1Kings 8:27

.

 

[Servant19]

Coming to the knowledge of God is the purpose of our existence, not merely knowledge about God, which is the beginning of it all, but direct, intuitive knowledge* of *Him, which is the end. This is also called “seeing” God.

The Church teaches two things about this knowledge 1) man cannot obtain it on his own; it’s completely above our natural ability. Reason can ascertain the existence of God but cannot arrive at the intuitive knowledge of God. That’s a matter of grace, necessitating “the light of glory”, as theologians put it, a supernatural gift from the only one Who can give it. 2) Man, whether in heaven or on earth, cannot know God comprehensively-presumably we’d have to be God in order for that to be possible and the distance between us and Him is infinite. IOW, the knowledge is strictly *enabled *by Him, and complete insofar as it fulfills our needs. Faith, itself, is a supernatural foretaste of this knowledge, but it’s fully experienced or consummated, so to speak, in the next life.

184 “Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come” (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2). CCC

Additionally, according to Aquinas and others, God can grant the experience of His immediate presence-this full knowledge- here and now, at moments, for His purposes, an experience some saints testified about. In any case, this knowledge or vision, even in “dimmer” form, is that which is spoken of in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:

**No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD. **Jer 31:34

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Cor 13:12

Again, this knowledge is not a natural knowledge-which is probably what most of the sources you referenced are speaking of. It’s an “intellectual vision” that depends on grace-man cannot attain to it on his own. It begins with faith:

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matt 11:27

Let me re-emphasize; without grace, man’s knowledge of God is only “head-knowledge”, allegorical at best. And a believer’s experience here on earth may well remain much that way-depending.

More from the Catechism:
**35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

52 God, who “dwells in unapproachable light”, wants to communicate his own divine life to the men he freely created, in order to adopt them as his sons in his only-begotten Son.3 By revealing himself God wishes to make them capable of responding to him, and of knowing him and of loving him far beyond their own natural capacity.

53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously "by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other"4 and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons repeatedly speaks of this divine pedagogy using the image of God and man becoming accustomed to one another: The Word of God dwelt in man and became the Son of man in order to accustom man to perceive God and to accustom God to dwell in man, according to the Father’s pleasure.

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:

When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:
How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends. **
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Thankyou for this fhansen.

May I ask what your understanding is of “intuitive knowledge of God”?

Can man gain a knowledge of the Essence of God, or only of His attributes?

.

 

[Servant19]

FROM THE SUMMA:
Hence it must be absolutely granted that the blessed see the essence of God.

Amazing!

Aquinas Himself contradicts de fide teaching of the Catholic Church which categorically states:

**

God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)

**

.

 

[davidv]

Amazing!

Aquinas Himself contradicts de fide teaching of the Catholic Church which categorically states:

.

Seems to me this reflects a misinterpretation of both item. Aquinas used the word “seeing”. The other uses the word “incomprehensible”. Why is seeing the same a comprehending?

 

[Darryl_Revok]

I’m having trouble understanding the magnitude of the sacrifice.

If you read anything about the ancient practice of crucifixion, it often took days for the victim to perish. Whereas *the *Crucifixion was over in a matter of hours, and Jesus was ultimately the one who decided *when *to die. As suffering goes, a single day of misery seems underwhelming, especially considering that he rose from the dead and went to heaven, and also considering the *lifetimes *of misery and suffering that were the norm in the world at the time.

 

[Servant19]

Seems to me this reflects a misinterpretation of both item. Aquinas used the word “seeing”. The other uses the word “incomprehensible”. Why is seeing the same a comprehending?

Because with seeing comes an, albeit maybe infinitesimal, certain degree of comprehension.

When one sees a plant, one comprehends “something” of that plant. Green, a stalk, leaves (one even assigns labels to component parts)

Comprehension and seeing have “some” correlation…
Seeing and incomprehension are incompatible…

.

 

[Servant19]

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” (NIV)

1. There are some Trinitarians who insist that the term “Son of God” implies a pre-existence and that Jesus is God. Once the doctrine of pre-existence was propounded, a vocabulary had to be developed to support it, and thus non-biblical phrases such as “eternally begotten” and “eternal Son” were invented. Not only are these phrases not in the Bible or secular literature, they do not make sense. By definition, a “Son” has a beginning, and by definition, “eternal” means “without beginning.” To put the two words together when they never appear together in the Bible or in common usage is doing nothing more than creating a nonsensical term. The meaning of “Son of God” is literal: God the Father impregnated Mary, and nine months later Mary had a son, Jesus. Thus, Jesus is “the Son of God.” “This is how the birth [Greek = “beginning”] of Jesus Christ came about,” says Matthew 1:18, and that occurred about 2000 years ago, not in “eternity past.”
2. When the phrase “Son of God” is studied and compared with phrases about the Father, a powerful truth is revealed. The phrase “Son of God” is common in the New Testament, but the phrase “God the Son” never appears. In contrast, phrases like “God the Father,” “God our Father,” “the God and Father” and “God, even the Father” occur many times. Are we to believe that the Son is actually God just as the Father is, but the Father is plainly called “God, the Father” over and over and yet the Son is not even once called “God the Son”? This is surely strong evidence that Jesus is not actually “God the Son” at all.
   …

more

biblicalunitarian.com

Hasantas, Jesus AND Muhammad are human Manifestations of an ETERNAL BEING called the WORD OF GOD.

To focus on JUST the human aspect of Jesus and Muhammad (and Baha’u’llah) and to deny their eternal Divine aspect is a clear theological mistake.

Muhammad Himself refers to His eternal, Divine aspect…

.

 

[davidv]

Because with seeing comes an, albeit maybe infinitesimal, certain degree of comprehension.

When one sees a plant, one comprehends “something” of that plant. Green, a stalk, leaves (one even assigns labels to component parts)

Comprehension and seeing have “some” correlation…
Seeing and incomprehension are incompatible…

.

Not in the context in which they were presented.

 

[Servant19]

Not in the context in which they were presented.

Can you please clarify what you mean David?

.

 

[fhansen]

Amazing!

Aquinas Himself contradicts de fide teaching of the Catholic Church which categorically states:

---

.

OK, here;

"The blessed in heaven possess an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence." (De fide)

"God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in heaven". (De fide)

The resolution to this apparent contradiction is that no created being can have comprehensive- complete and total- knowledge of God’s essence, due to our limitations vis a vis Him. And yet our knowledge will be beyond imagination and beyond sufficiency for its *purpose. *

Maybe an analogy might be that we can a have very close relationship with another person-we can know them well-even if they’re far superior to us in, say, maturity or intelligence. We won’t be able to know them or identify with them in the way we would if we were on the same level as them. But, from our perspective, we enjoy their fellowship just the same-the difference doesn’t matter.

I’d also like to emphasize the importance of this knowledge, this direct experience. From an eternal perspective especially, to merely know *about *God wouldn’t cut it. If there’s anything that can satisfy the human heart completely, totally, that thing would be critical if one were expected to desire continued existence-forever. There’s a hope-or a sense, I’d submit, innate in the human heart, for something better, that something is or should be better somewhere. That hope, that drive for happiness, does not lack an end-it has a purpose, a goal. And that goal we call “God”. And the testimony of those who’ve “seen” God, if only for a millisecond, is that this Reality is of such ineffable, boundless beauty and glory and love that nothing could possibly be left to be desired as long as one could remain in that Presence. Total peace, beyond understanding- well-being, happiness, joy, elation; Goodness, itself, is in and all around you, engulfing and overwhelming you. Just by knowing God. Grace makes the impossible possible for man.

 

[clem456]

If God is love,
And if love has no limit,
It is perfectly comprehensible that God would condescend to become one with his creatures, and subject his self to all that humanity is, including cruelty. What parent would not take the place of his/her child if it could be saved from death? This is what our God does for us.

This is knowing…to become one with the person you wish to know, in every respect but sin. Knowing is not a thing of the mind alone, but a union of the heart.
We cannot be God, but he can be us, and by his grace he is conceived in humanity.