If God became man

[davidv]

I’m not understanding how it is a sacrifice, either.

Understanding who Jesus is and covenant theology can begin to bring an understanding of how it is a sacrifice.

Especially because so many people don’t know about Jesus and God…and even if they do, so many still may purportedly and easily go to hell and not be “saved”.

 

[hasantas]

The Church existed-and preached the gospel-before a word of the New Testament was written.

That is true and that is the reason of conflicts. Because if Bible had been written right during life of Jesus so there would not be so arguments on it. Some people did not believe Jesus was a prophet and some people did and also some people thought He was more than a people. There have been many struggles between those thoughts from very initially. There are yet groups who think Jesus was just a prophet in Christians. But the major part thought Jesus was more than a man so the Gospels got formed in that way later.

 

[DCNBILL]

As much I know there are different copies of Gospels and there are no original texts.

Original texts? You mean from 4,000 to 2,000 years ago. Well I would not expect there to be. That does not change the fact that we have the Bible, the intact, inerrant Word of God. The Church through the Holy Spirit has every right to proclaim such.

 

[DCNBILL]

That is true and that is the reason of conflicts. Because if Bible had been written right during life of Jesus so there would not be so arguments on it. Some people did not believe Jesus was a prophet and some people did and also some people thought He was more than a people. There have been many struggles between those thoughts from very initially. There are yet groups who think Jesus was just a prophet in Christians. But the major part thought Jesus was more than a man so the Gospels got formed in that way later.

Yes, you are right, the Bible did come out of the Church, that community that God in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ set up, with a clear and sustained model of leadership and is inspired by the third person of the Holy Trinity. So we have God come to earth, show us, The Way, left us with God, the Holy Spirit to guide us and out of His Church came the documents that allow us to experience Salvation History and the Church is the authority that contains these truths.

 

[fhansen]

That is true and that is the reason of conflicts. Because if Bible had been written right during life of Jesus so there would not be so arguments on it. Some people did not believe Jesus was a prophet and some people did and also some people thought He was more than a people. There have been many struggles between those thoughts from very initially. There are yet groups who think Jesus was just a prophet in Christians. But the major part thought Jesus was more than a man so the Gospels got formed in that way later.

The gospels were formed the way they were because of an unfathomably huge bright light that entered into the world, a light that man could only* attempt* to testify to in whatever way he could. The Church received that light, that revelation, at the beginning; the Catholic faith is not based on the bible, but on Christ. Those faiths that are based on the bible have the problems you mentioned, whereas in the Catholic faith any controversies can be definitively resolved by the Church that received the truth initially and has been guided in protecting and proclaiming it ever since. The bible was never intended as a catechism-and* any *written document can be misinterpreted BTW.

 

[hasantas]

Yes, you are right, the Bible did come out of the Church, that community that God in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ set up, with a clear and sustained model of leadership and is inspired by the third person of the Holy Trinity. So we have God come to earth, show us, The Way, left us with God, the Holy Spirit to guide us and out of His Church came the documents that allow us to experience Salvation History and the Church is the authority that contains these truths.

Could anyone tell a story in which Holy Spirit guide and lead the Church? Can anyone prove that? Did Holy Spirit lead Church for the Inquisition?

 

[hasantas]

The gospels were formed the way they were because of an unfathomably huge bright light that entered into the world, a light that man could only* attempt* to testify to in whatever way he could. The Church received that light, that revelation, at the beginning;

the Catholic faith is not based

So who did protect the disciplines of Jesus yet the Bible could not be saved exactly? Church consist of people so do you claim to trust people but not Jesus Himself?

Holy Spirit come to prophets but not to ordinary people. If the claim of Holy Spirit to guide Church was true so the Church should not made any mistake. But we know there have been many scandals and conflicts in the Church. That shows the claim of Holy Spirit to guide Church is baseless.

God just guided prophets but not general people and God did that work through Holy Spirit(Angel). Angel had not come to an ordinary human to declare knowledges from God. But you claim that God come to ordinary humans by Himself to inform them. That does not sound comprehensible.

 

[fhansen]

So who did protect the disciplines of Jesus yet the Bible could not be saved exactly? Church consist of people so do you claim to trust people but not Jesus Himself?

I guess I don’t understand the point. The bible is saved exactly-but that doesn’t mean that anyone and everyone reading it will have exact understanding-we’re talking about the things of God, after all, and even more mundane documents tend to be misinterpreted easily enough.

Holy Spirit come to prophets but not to ordinary people. If the claim of Holy Spirit to guide Church was true so the Church should not made any mistake. But we know there have been many scandals and conflicts in the Church. That shows the claim of Holy Spirit to guide Church is baseless.

People make mistakes all the time-but not in doctrine, in this case. The* truth*, IOW, is preserved and protected in the Church from error, whether or not her members live according to it even though they should.

God just guided prophets but not general people and God did that work through Holy Spirit(Angel). Angel had not come to an ordinary human to declare knowledges from God. But you claim that God come to ordinary humans by Himself to inform them. That does not sound comprehensible.

It sounds a lot better to me-a God Who, in the end, would do the work Himself of saving His own creation.

 

[DCNBILL]

Could anyone tell a story in which Holy Spirit guide and lead the Church? Can anyone prove that? Did Holy Spirit lead Church for the Inquisition?

Yes the Holy Spirit does guide the Church how do you think that the Church survived the sins of men at times like the inquisition and the current distortions of what happened during that time that is being spewed by anti-Catholic rhetoric today.

The very existence of the Church as it stands today is the very proof that The Holy Spirit does indeed guide it and dwells within all baptized Christians, strengthening them for their journey to the Father.

 

[DCNBILL]

So who did protect the disciplines of Jesus yet the Bible could not be saved exactly? Church consist of people so do you claim to trust people but not Jesus Himself?

Holy Spirit come to prophets but not to ordinary people. If the claim of Holy Spirit to guide Church was true so the Church should not made any mistake. But we know there have been many scandals and conflicts in the Church. That shows the claim of Holy Spirit to guide Church is baseless.

God just guided prophets but not general people and God did that work through Holy Spirit(Angel). Angel had not come to an ordinary human to declare knowledges from God. But you claim that God come to ordinary humans by Himself to inform them. That does not sound comprehensible.

I attest to you here and now that the Holy Spirit dwells within me and guides me, do I always follow, no I stumble and fall and sin but the love of God is so vast that He will not abandon me, He searches me, He calls and beckons me to rise and follow Him.

 

[Servant19]

God is not an object to stoop down. God do not consist of atoms as human. God is beyond of time and space.

If God make Himself lower so He is an inferior person anymore. And an inferior person could not raise himself to the superior level as you mentioned. So how could Jesus raise?

And you accept the works of prophets. Well good. Even Jesus just lived like a prophet. So wasn’t Jesus merely a prophet! We can comment the scripture in different ways.

Hasantas, I’m really not sure why you are making this argument. There are many hadiths that indicated Muhammad Himself being a “superior being” lowering Himself into a human Temple for the benefit of human beings to relate to Him.

.

 

[Servant19]

I attest to you here and now that the Holy Spirit dwells within me and guides me, do I always follow, no I stumble and fall and sin but the love of God is so vast that He will not abandon me, He searches me, He calls and beckons me to rise and follow Him.

How does one KNOW that the Holy Spirit is within them as opposed to the simple spirit of goodwill onto all men.

An atheist may have ideals that are morally praiseworthy, may stumble in his path to live them out, yet finds strength to constantly arise towards his praiseworthy goal. Is the atheist also guided by the Holy Spirit?

.

 

[hasantas]

Hasantas, I’m really not sure why you are making this argument. There are many hadiths that indicated Muhammad Himself being a “superior being” lowering Himself into a human Temple for the benefit of human beings to relate to Him.

.

Yes Muhammed was superior than others in morally. Muhammed expressed that to point He was the most good model for humanbeing. But also He was modest too. He said that all people were equal according to being servants of God. So Muhammed was equal with us to be servant of God and in that manner Muhammed was just a humanbeing although He should be very high as morally. Muhammed never claimed or implied such thing to be more superior than humanbeing. That is Shirk.

And Jesus was very high as morally and He performed great miracles but that do not make Him more than a man. Because many prophets did that but they were merely humanbeing.

In that sense Hazrat Bahaullah should be high as morally but that do not make Hime more than a man. Indeed Bahaullah was not a prophet because there are no enough evidences for that. Abdulkadir Gaylani was more high than Bahaullah as moraly but Hazrat Abdulkadir never claimed to be more than a man and He never claimed to be a prophet. Abdulkadir had morally writtings. Abdulkadir Gaylani performed great Karamats(kinds of miracle which moraly high people perform). He arised a cooked chicken. He could fly. He could go far places in a very short time. He could see and speak angels etc. So if there should be someone to be a prophet it must be Abdulkadir Gaylani but he never claimed such thing.

 

[hasantas]

I guess I don’t understand the point. The bible is saved exactly-but that doesn’t mean that anyone and everyone reading it will have exact understanding-we’re talking about the things of God, after all, and even more mundane documents tend to be misinterpreted easily enough.

People make mistakes all the time-but not in doctrine, in this case. The* truth*, IOW, is preserved and protected in the Church from error, whether or not her members live according to it even though they should.

It sounds a lot better to me-a God Who, in the end, would do the work Himself of saving His own creation.

The texts of Gospels are not exact words which came out through Jesus’s mouth. There are comments of writers in Gospels. Just like that there are interpretations and comments of people in Church’s doctrines. And source of those doctrines is not Jesus. For instance Jeus said someone “your sin is forgiven”. But Jesus did not say that “I forgave your sin”. God informed Jesus about one’s sin whom God forgave. And some people thought that Jesus forgave sins and so Jesus must be God because only God could forgive sins. That is the way in which the doctrines were established.

People make mistakes but not in doctrines? Could you prove that? Ohh Holy Spirit guided! Holy Spirit guided prophets like Jesus but not others. Look at Bible carefully.

If God made that work by Himself why many people yet commit sins? Or God sacrificed His Son so we could commit sins how much we wish? And Church will forgive our sins in the name of God? Do not people in Church commit sin any? Who will forgive their sins in the name of God?

 

[hasantas]

Yes the Holy Spirit does guide the Church how do you think that the Church survived the sins of men at times like the inquisition and the current distortions of what happened during that time that is being spewed by anti-Catholic rhetoric today.

The very existence of the Church as it stands today is the very proof that The Holy Spirit does indeed guide it and dwells within all baptized Christians, strengthening them for their journey to the Father.

If Holy Spirit guided Church so why the Churchs have different thoughts? Why Christianity split into three parts and more in details? Could not Holy Spirit prevent that?

I do not intend to spew any antagonism but I try to point that there had been many errors in Church and many people were oppressed by executions of Church. If there had been so many conflicts in Church so Holy Spirit should not be cause of such persecutions.

Hinduism is alike with Christianity in that sense. I do not know exactly that the source of Hinduism was prophets but even if that was so but it had moved away from the facts to very far.

 

[fhansen]

The texts of Gospels are not exact words which came out through Jesus’s mouth. There are comments of writers in Gospels. Just like that there are interpretations and comments of people in Church’s doctrines. And source of those doctrines is not Jesus. For instance Jeus said someone “your sin is forgiven”. But Jesus did not say that “I forgave your sin”. God informed Jesus about one’s sin whom God forgave. And some people thought that Jesus forgave sins and so Jesus must be God because only God could forgive sins. That is the way in which the doctrines were established.

People make mistakes but not in doctrines? Could you prove that? Ohh Holy Spirit guided! Holy Spirit guided prophets like Jesus but not others. Look at Bible carefully.

If God made that work by Himself why many people yet commit sins? Or God sacrificed His Son so we could commit sins how much we wish? And Church will forgive our sins in the name of God? Do not people in Church commit sin any? Who will forgive their sins in the name of God?

God forgives any who repent sincerely, who really want to change. That’s the whole point. And the Church, not the bible per se, is the proclaimer of Gods Word. How do you know and how can you prove that the Qur’an is the Word of God?

Everyone in the Church commits sins; that’s a struggle we all deal with. Jesus came to reveal that fact- that sin is first of all a matter of the heart, before it becomes a matter of outward actions. The heart must change then right actions will follow.

 

[Bahman]

Yes Muhammed was superior than others in morally. Muhammed expressed that to point He was the most good model for humanbeing. But also He was modest too. He said that all people were equal according to being servants of God. So Muhammed was equal with us to be servant of God and in that manner Muhammed was just a humanbeing although He should be very high as morally. Muhammed never claimed or implied such thing to be more superior than humanbeing. That is Shirk.

And Jesus was very high as morally and He performed great miracles but that do not make Him more than a man. Because many prophets did that but they were merely humanbeing.

In that sense Hazrat Bahaullah should be high as morally but that do not make Hime more than a man. Indeed Bahaullah was not a prophet because there are no enough evidences for that. Abdulkadir Gaylani was more high than Bahaullah as moraly but Hazrat Abdulkadir never claimed to be more than a man and He never claimed to be a prophet. Abdulkadir had morally writtings. Abdulkadir Gaylani performed great Karamats(kinds of miracle which moraly high people perform). He arised a cooked chicken. He could fly. He could go far places in a very short time. He could see and speak angels etc. So if there should be someone to be a prophet it must be Abdulkadir Gaylani but he never claimed such thing.

How Mohammad and Jesus could be prophets if there is a conflict in what they claim, Jesus said to love your enemy and Mohammad said kill his enemy!!!

 

[hasantas]

How Mohammad and Jesus could be prophets if there is a conflict in what they claim, Jesus said to love your enemy and Mohammad said kill his enemy!!!

There are no conflicts between prophets but there are conflicts between us, people. Jesus had never claimed to be Son of God and that is a metaphorical term for Jesus. But some people think that term in an adventural and msytical way. The conflicts emerged from that.

Qur’an allow to retaliate enemies. If you enemy kill your father, mother and all neighbours what will you do? Qur’an order to do in peace:

94-O you who have believed, when you go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah , investigate; and do not say to one who gives you [a greeting of] peace “You are not a believer,” aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You [yourselves] were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor upon you, so investigate. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted. Nisa(4):94

But for evils here is the Qur’anic way:

34- And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend. Fussilat(41): 34

134- Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good;Al-Imran(3):134

159- So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him]. Al-Imran(3):159

125-Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided. Nahl(16):125

etc…

The flowers are good but you just focus on thorns.

 

[hasantas]

God forgives any who repent sincerely, who really want to change. That’s the whole point. And the Church, not the bible per se, is the proclaimer of Gods Word. How do you know and how can you prove that the Qur’an is the Word of God?

Everyone in the Church commits sins; that’s a struggle we all deal with. Jesus came to reveal that fact- that sin is first of all a matter of the heart, before it becomes a matter of outward actions. The heart must change then right actions will follow.

Qur’an has at least 40 miracles attributions. That go so long to define but just in the way Allah prove:

1. Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qurán, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.Al-Isra(17):88
2. Or do they say, “He forged it”? Say: “Bring then a Sürah like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!” Yunus(10):38
3. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sürah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. Al-Baqarah(2):23

Qur’an challenge for about 1400 years and nobody could answer by bring something like Qur’an. If someone have doubts about Qur’an so bring an equal book. Muhammed could not read or write and had no education. But you can call professors to do that work!

 

[hasantas]

=fhansen;13082286]

You did not answer questions about how it can be possible a transition bwtween eternality and mortality. But let’s go on in other way

You say God became man so which God became man? Are there three apart gods?What does the Son God do? The father create and organise all universe. So what about Son or Holy Spirit? Is Son God just to be sacrifice? Why did Son God be man why not woman? Do woman have no importance? What are the Son God doing now? Do Son wait to take another position? Do Son God not wish to take control from Father? When father will give the throne to Son? If these three gods discord what will happen us? I do not intend to ridicule but want to point conflicts.

If all three gods are one so shall we call the United Gods? If Son God has whole eternal power so why did He allways ask from Father and Holy Spirit?

But you will answer all these questions just with “love”! God has no merely love but also wisdom, mercy, grace, majesty etc. For instance majesty wish to punish rebellious as all kings do. If God had not majesty so God would not create hell! God has eternal majesty due to this God do not accept copartners as all kings do not.