If God became man

  • Thread starter Thread starter Servant19
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
14:28 Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. John 14 : 28

14:31 But he comes so that the world may see that I have love for the Father, and that I am doing as I am ordered by the Father. Get up, and let us go. John 14:31

As you see Jesus said Father(God) is greater than Him and Jesus was ordered by Father(God). If Jesus was God so father would not be greater than Him and God would not order other god! Eternality cannot be more or less great than other eternality!
 
Seriously?
You ask why God does something?

This makes no sense to me. What journey?

You are the one making this statement as I have stated it makes no sense. Perhaps the language barrier is a problem again?
.
Yes God is outside of time but He also created time. He controls everything so He can be in time if He wishes.

I know that is your belief. The belief that the Holy Spirit is an angel is not supported by Scripture.
14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will be your teacher in all things and will put you in mind of everything I have said to you. John 14

God will send Holy Spirit means that Holy Spirit will come from somewhere. To come Holy Spirit must get travel. If Holy Spirit was a god it would nt be sent but it would create and effect directly.

If Jesus ask from God and God sent another so there are three objects here! Where it God was one? Jesus and Holy Spirit cannot do anything without permission of God so how could these be part of deity?
 
So if Jesus could forgive sins but why did He die for our sins? Why didn’t Jesus say to Father that He could forgive sins without being sacrifice?
Again you are asking me to tell you the mind of God. Neither one of us has that much intelligence to understand.
 
14:28 Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. John 14 : 28

14:31 But he comes so that the world may see that I have love for the Father, and that I am doing as I am ordered by the Father. Get up, and let us go. John 14:31

As you see Jesus said Father(God) is greater than Him and Jesus was ordered by Father(God). If Jesus was God so father would not be greater than Him and God would not order other god! Eternality cannot be more or less great than other eternality!
I have already told you that the Trinity cannot be understood by our miniscule minds. Jesus is both God and man. When He speaks of God the Father being greater He is speaking as a human.

I could quote many places where scripture tells us that Jesus is God. We Have His own words that He is God. We know that He allowed the Apostles to worship Him. When Thomas said that Jesus was His Lord and his God Jesus did not say I am not a god. could go on but I know that you will continue to say that Jesus didn’t say He was God even though He did.

By the way what translation are you using?
 
So if Jesus could forgive sins but why did He die for our sins? Why didn’t Jesus say to Father that He could forgive sins without being sacrifice?
Because God is love.
Love pours itself out, it does not observe from a distance.
God pours himself out completely and perfectly, because God is complete and perfect.
Love unites persons.
Jesus is a person.
Because he loves us he becomes one with us.
We are sinners, so he who is without sin becomes sin so as to love us completely.

He takes on the sin and death that we endure.
This requires sacrifice. He who is spotless sacrifices himself and becomes Isaiah 53.

It is simply the nature of love to give one’s self completely, not in a detached and impersonal manner. That is our God.
 
14:28 Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. John 14 : 28

14:31 But he comes so that the world may see that I have love for the Father, and that I am doing as I am ordered by the Father. Get up, and let us go. John 14:31

As you see Jesus said Father(God) is greater than Him and Jesus was ordered by Father(God). If Jesus was God so father would not be greater than Him and God would not order other god! Eternality cannot be more or less great than other eternality!
To answer your question I am going to quote from a source that addresses this issue
This identification of Christ with God is emphatic in this chapter and throughout John. John 1:1 explains, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” In John 11:30 Christ says, “The Father and I are one.” In John 14:28 we are reaching a climax. Jesus is soon to be arrested and crucified. He is reassuring the apostles about himself. Yes, they are going to see him suffer in the flesh and die, but Jesus reminds them there is more to himself than just the human. He and the Father are one. His statement is a reassurance to them, and it should be to you as well.
 
Jesus is Priest, Prophet, and King
So Muslims are very right to say Jesus was a prophet. The beyond of that is the comprehension and consideration of Christians. Because Jesus never said directly that He was God or Son of God but Christians reason that through strained interpretation. To be son of God or to forgive sins are attributes which people ascribed to Jesus. It works in that way people say Jesus did or said that therefore Jesus must be so and so. But it can be interpreted in many different ways.Yet Jesus was just a prophet.

But I appreciate Christians for endeavor to try explain and solve all conflicts in the doctrines. The doctrines were established by people so peole should go at great effort to defend.
 
Because God is love.
Love pours itself out, it does not observe from a distance.
God pours himself out completely and perfectly, because God is complete and perfect.
Love unites persons.
Jesus is a person.
Because he loves us he becomes one with us.
We are sinners, so he who is without sin becomes sin so as to love us completely.

He takes on the sin and death that we endure.
This requires sacrifice. He who is spotless sacrifices himself and becomes Isaiah 53.

It is simply the nature of love to give one’s self completely, not in a detached and impersonal manner. That is our God.
If we treat religious or such issues just according to one subject so we cannot conclude rightly. So we should also treat that issue according to wisdom, eternality, majesty and all other attributes, acts and laws of God. God is not merely love. Yes love is an importand attribute but there is no just love.
 
To answer your question I am going to quote from a source that addresses this issue
“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.” John 14:7-10

Jesus imply that God is another person. Father and Son is not one. It is obvious in verses. So to say Father and Son is one through love is pointless. That is the direct meaning in the verses so it is not use to make strained interpretations.

God is in Jesus means Jesus has absolute knowledge and order of God. Jesus performed many miracles by permission of God and Jesus had revelation from God. So who has seen Jesus so has seen Father mean Jesus made God known very obviously. Jesus was in form of human and Jesus lived just like a human and a prophet so it is not importand who was in Jesus. And also it is not possible for God to dwell in a body physically because God is not physical. God create physical laws and God is not one of law which God created. If God create someting so that is a creature anymore and God do not be at same time a creator and a creature! Indeed God never be a creature or part of it. That issue is debated in Sufism in Islam. Some Sufis said “all is God” but that is not true. The fact is that “all is from God”.
 
So Muslims are very right to say Jesus was a prophet. The beyond of that is the comprehension and consideration of Christians. Because Jesus never said directly that He was God or Son of God but Christians reason that through strained interpretation. To be son of God or to forgive sins are attributes which people ascribed to Jesus. It works in that way people say Jesus did or said that therefore Jesus must be so and so. But it can be interpreted in many different ways.Yet Jesus was just a prophet.

But I appreciate Christians for endeavor to try explain and solve all conflicts in the doctrines. The doctrines were established by people so peole should go at great effort to defend.
Jesus directly said He was God.
You keep making this false statement and when you are corrected you keep saying it anyway What you write is a lie.
John 8:56
“Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”
The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
Exodus 3:13
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? What shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you
Mark 14:60–64
‘And the high priest arose and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do you make no answer to what these men are testifying against you?” But he kept silent and made no answer. Again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said,****
“I Am
; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned him to be deserving of death.’
As I stated Jesus is not just a prophet that is your false belief that ignores everything else such as priest king and our God as Thomas acknowledged and Jesus did not refute.
 
Jesus imply that God is another person.
He does no such thing.
Father and Son is not one. It is obvious in verses
It is obvious that you don’t know what obvious means.
. So to say Father and Son is one through love is pointless. That is the direct meaning in the verses so it is not use to make strained interpretations.
Your interpretation is strained as Jesus directly states the Father and I are one. Jesus was surprised that His apostles after being with Him and see all that He had done asked to see the Father because He is God.
God is in Jesus means Jesus has absolute knowledge and order of God
.
Of course since He is God.
Jesus performed many miracles by permission of God
Your unsubstantiated opinion.
and Jesus had revelation from God. So who has seen Jesus so has seen Father mean Jesus made God known very obviously. Jesus was in form of human and Jesus lived just like a human and a prophet so it is not importand who was in Jesus. And also it is not possible for God to dwell in a body physically because God is not physical
.
God is unlimited and can do anything and did because He emptied Himself into being a human.
God create physical laws and God is not one of law which God created. If God create someting so that is a creature anymore and God do not be at same time a creator and a creature! Indeed God never be a creature or part of it. That issue is debated in Sufism in Islam. Some Sufis said “all is God” but that is not true. The fact is that “all is from God”.
You limit God It must be the language barrier but none of this make sense. I don’t care about what is debated in Islam. I care about the truth that Jesus revealed not lies.

Did Jesus really claim to be God
On a number of occasions, Jesus implied that he was equal with God the Father by receiving honor and worship that only God should receive. In a confrontation with Satan, Jesus said, ‘It is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only”’ (Matthew 4:10). Yet Jesus received worship as God (Matthew 14:33; 28:9) and sometimes even demanded to be worshipped as God (John 5:23; compare Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8–14).
 
Jesus directly said He was God.
You keep making this false statement and when you are corrected you keep saying it anyway What you write is a lie.
John 8:56
Mark 14:60–64
As I stated Jesus is not just a prophet that is your false belief that ignores everything else such as priest king and our God as Thomas acknowledged and Jesus did not refute.
You accuse me to lie. Lie is mortal sin. That is not fair. I had never read a statement in which Jesus said “I am God”. I stated that Jesus said or did something and people ascribed Jesus to be so or so. For instance you say Jesus said that He was before Abraham and yu claim that Jesus must be God. That is just what I stated. Prophet Muhammad said His light and essence was created before everything. So Muhammad was before universe, Abraham and Jesus. Should Muhammad be God? That is very dangerous.

The son of God is a metaphorical statement for Jesus. It is stated in Bible somewhere. To be God or son of God are assertions which people attributed to Jesus but such things never Jesus said by Himself. So to accuse a man to say lie is a serious responsibility. Lie do not solve anything. I know that very well.
 
You accuse me to lie. Lie is mortal sin. That is not fair. I had never read a statement in which Jesus said “I am God”. I stated that Jesus said or did something and people ascribed Jesus to be so or so. For instance you say Jesus said that He was before Abraham and yu claim that Jesus must be God. That is just what I stated. Prophet Muhammad said His light and essence was created before everything. So Muhammad was before universe, Abraham and Jesus. Should Muhammad be God? That is very dangerous.

.
I find this fascinating.
I never directly stated that you lied.
So if I didn’t say it directly than I didn’t tell you that you lied.
Isn’t that your criteria? 😉

Jesus Said:
I AM the name of God and those around Him understood that He was saying He was God
For they said He blasphemes by making Himself God. You chose to focus in on the before Abraham but that overlooks that Jesus said He was I AM.

Jesus told Peter when Peter said Jesus was the Son of God that the Holy Spirit had revealed it to him not that He was wrong.

When Tomas worshiped Jesus as both his Lord and His GOD. Jesus did not reprimand Him and tell him I am not your God.

Jesus said that He and the Father were one
The son of God is a metaphorical statement for Jesus. It is stated in Bible somewhere. To be God or son of God are assertions which people attributed to Jesus but such things never Jesus said by Himself. So to accuse a man to say lie is a serious responsibility. Lie do not solve anything. I know that very well
I wonder if you understand what metaphoric means.?
You say Jesus never said by Himself?
This is what happened at Jesus’ trial
Again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Jesus is asked are you the Son of the Blessed One? Jesus answers I am. How more direct can you get?
 
If we treat religious or such issues just according to one subject so we cannot conclude rightly. So we should also treat that issue according to wisdom, eternality, majesty and all other attributes, acts and laws of God. God is not merely love. Yes love is an importand attribute but there is no just love.
Merely love? Merely?
I’m not referring to love as an emotion or sentiment.
That is not love. Love contains all other things like wisdom and justice.
God Is Love
Code:
  7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Code:
  15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us. 20**If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.**
 
=adrift;13100120]He does no such thing.
It is obvious that you don’t know what obvious means.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. John 8:40

Jesus heard from God, Jesus asked from God, Jesus sent by God etc. All these statements are in all where Bible. Gospels are full of such statements. So you ignore all these evidences by which Jesus imply God is another person but you recognise some verses by which Jesus might imply that He was God! Accordin to general statements it is very obvious that Jesus and Father are very different persons. But it is very uncertain and cloudy that Jesus could be God. And you follow apprehensions and suppositions as Qur’an mentions.
Your interpretation is strained as Jesus directly states the Father and I are one. Jesus was surprised that His apostles after being with Him and see all that He had done asked to see the Father because He is God.
So Jesus did not say directly He and Father are one. So we can interpret diffrently like that: Jesus was a very certain evidence for God so Jesus was surprised that His apostles after being Him and see all that He had done asked to see the Father because He is from God.
Of course since He is God.
Muhammed had knowledge of God but He was not God
Your unsubstantiated opinion.
Qur’an is not unsubstantiated but you repeat that. You should refute my opinions in a fair way. And I try to debate through Bible. If I would do that by Qur’an it would be very easy. I can see the facts in your religion but you never approach me by centimeter. You have a great prophet and religion so you should be more valiant.
.
God is unlimited and can do anything and did because He emptied Himself into being a human.
You limit God It must be the language barrier but none of this make sense. I don’t care about what is debated in Islam. I care about the truth that Jesus revealed not lies.
Nobody could explain how a transition could be possible between eternal and mortal. It is not enough to say if God wish He could do every thing.

God is unlimited but if God became man so God is limited anymore! Was not Jesus limited as a human? If that human part of Jesus is very apart from deity part so why to say God became man? If that human part is not apart so God is a human and limited. If you say God became man so you bound God.

That barrier is not kind of which in a language!
 
=adrift;13100120] I care about the truth that Jesus revealed not lies.
Nobody say Jesus revealed lie. But people misinterpreted what He revealed.
Jesus never claim to be worshiped. Perhaps that worship mean respect or honour someone as in that verse:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

Jesus was Christ and Messiah. Jesus was born without a father so that term Son is metaphorical.

(John 20:26-29) There are many people who believe Jesus without seeing any miracle directly from Him. His apostles had seen miracles so they believed but Jesus bless people who do not see any miracle but yet believe. Thomas believed after seeing miracle.

(I and my Father are one. John 10:30) Then look at that: 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. John 10

Father is greater than all and ofcourse greater than Jesus as it is mentioned in another verse. So we can interpret 10:30 in that way: Jesus performed what just Father ordered so Jesus and Father were one. Jesus imply that in many verses. Jesus said He was sent by Father and He did what Father revealed to Him.

(John 10:31-33) Jesus claimed to be God so they thought Jesus was in blasphemy? Then read the next. Jesus explained that:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

It should be written in OT.

(‘If you knew me, you would know my Father also’ (John 8:19); ‘He who beholds me beholds the One who sent me’ (John 12:45); ‘He who hates me, hates my Father also’ (John 15:23); ‘All may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him’ (John 5:23).)

These references do not indicate that Jesus was more than a man. Jesus was sent by God so Jesus was Apostle and Messenger of God. So who does honor Son also does honor Father because Son was sent in the name of Father.

Jesus Christ was Son of Blessed One(Mary)! That term is repeated in Qur’an too.
 
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. John 8:40

Jesus heard from God, Jesus asked from God, Jesus sent by God etc. All these statements are in all where Bible. Gospels are full of such statements. So you ignore all these evidences by which Jesus imply God is another person but you recognise some verses by which Jesus might imply that He was God! Accordin to general statements it is very obvious that Jesus and Father are very different persons. But it is very uncertain and cloudy that Jesus could be God. And you follow apprehensions and suppositions as Qur’an mentions.

So Jesus did not say directly He and Father are one.
He most certainly did and the Jews wanted to stone Him for it.

The Gospel of John Chapter 10
**
30 The Father and I are one**.”

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”

33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”
 
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. John 8:40

Jesus heard from God, Jesus asked from God, Jesus sent by God etc. All these statements are in all where Bible. Gospels are full of such statements. So you ignore all these evidences by which Jesus imply God is another person but you recognise some verses by which Jesus might imply that He was God! Accordin to general statements it is very obvious that Jesus and Father are very different persons. But it is very uncertain and cloudy that Jesus could be God. And you follow apprehensions and suppositions as Qur’an mentions.
The word you use is " imply" that God is anther person. What you believe implies does not. Jesus doesn’t say it directly. Jesus doesn’t say that God is different from Him and is another person. Jesus is both God and Man. Jesus answers as a human all the statements you quote. Jesus does not “imply” that He is God it is stated outright that Jesus is God. The Qur’an is made up by a human.
So Jesus did not say directly He and Father are one. So we can interpret diffrently like that: Jesus was a very certain evidence for God so Jesus was surprised that His apostles after being Him and see all that He had done asked to see the Father because He is from God.
An untrue statement:
DCNBILL stated it best
He most certainly did and the Jews wanted to stone Him for it.

The Gospel of John Chapter 10
**
30 The Father and I are one**.”

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”

33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”
Nobody could explain how a transition could be possible between eternal and mortal. It is not enough to say if God wish He could do every thing.
God is unlimited but if God became man so God is limited anymore! Was not Jesus limited as a human? If that human part of Jesus is very apart from deity part so why to say God became man? If that human part is not apart so God is a human and limited. If you say God became man so you bound God.
No I do not bind God but I believe Him when Jesus says He is God. I don’t understand but no human mind can. You are trying to parse Jesus. Jesus is fully man and fully God. Jesus revealed this to us. Because you follow what I consider a false prophet you are unable to accept what scriptures clearly teach. You interpret them according to writings that I consider false. You believe that you can decide God:shrug:
That barrier is not kind of which in a language!
I don’t know what you are saying it makes no sense.
 
Nobody say Jesus revealed lie. But people misinterpreted what He revealed.
I agree since what you write is a prime example of it.
Jesus never claim to be worshiped. Perhaps that worship mean respect or honour someone as in that verse:
Thomas called Jesus His God. Worship is giving honor to God. So you are wrong.
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
A mere human should have the same honor as God:eek: :nope:
was Christ and Messiah. Jesus was born without a father so that term Son is metaphorical.
One does not equate to the other. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus did not have an earthly father. There is metaphorical again it makes no sense which makes me wonder again do you know the meaning of the word.
(John 20:26-29) There are many people who believe Jesus without seeing any miracle directly from Him. His apostles had seen miracles so they believed but Jesus bless people who do not see any miracle but yet believe. Thomas believed after seeing miracle.(I and my Father are one. John 10:30) Then look at that: 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. John 10
This really doesn’t address or answer the point I made. It is a non sequitur.
Father is greater than all and ofcourse greater than Jesus as it is mentioned in another verse. So we can interpret 10:30 in that way: Jesus performed what just Father ordered so Jesus and Father were one. Jesus imply that in many verses. Jesus said He was sent by Father and He did what Father revealed to Him.
Not very clear on what you are trying to state.
(John 10:31-33) Jesus claimed to be God so they thought Jesus was in blasphemy? Then read the next. Jesus explained that:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
It should be written in OT.
(‘If you knew me, you would know my Father also’ (John 8:19); ‘He who beholds me beholds the One who sent me’ (John 12:45); ‘He who hates me, hates my Father also’ (John 15:23); ‘All may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him’ (John 5:23).)
These references do not indicate that Jesus was more than a man. Jesus was sent by God so Jesus was Apostle and Messenger of God. So who does honor Son also does honor Father because Son was sent in the name of Father.
Put this into context because Jesus follows it with
can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated 16 and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me;
but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
(Then) they tried again to arrest him; but he escaped from their power.
Clearly Jesus is saying He is God. We know this because they tried to arrest Him.
Jesus Christ was Son of Blessed One(Mary)! That term is repeated in Qur’an too.
What is in the Qur’an has no relation to the Bible. The Blessed one is not Mary but God as the Douay has it as
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God?
Putting it into context they said it was blasphemy. It isn’t blasphemy to be the son of Mary how utterly ridiculous to say that they were referring to Mary. Why would they consider her blessed? We as Christians do because we know who Jesus is, God and human but they didn’t know. For you state that they were referring to her is more than outlandish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top