If God became man

[hasantas]

He most certainly did and the Jews wanted to stone Him for it.

The Gospel of John Chapter 10
**
30 The Father and I are one**.”

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”

33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”

10:34 In answer, Jesus said, Is there not a saying in your law, I said, You are gods?

10:35 If he said they were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Writings may not be broken), John 10

Jesus did not claim to be God but The Jews accused Jesus to say that. Jesus explained why He said so in the following verses(34,35). The reason is that: to whom the word of God came so they are said gods. Jesus indicated that the word of God came to Him so Jesus could be called gods according to Jews scripture(Writings).

And also the Jews did not believe in Jesus’s prophethood.

So there is no a claim by Jesus to be God!

 

[hasantas]

=adrift;13104490]The word you use is " imply" that God is anther person. What you believe implies does not. Jesus doesn’t say it directly. Jesus doesn’t say that God is different from Him and is another person. Jesus is both God and Man. Jesus answers as a human all the statements you quote. Jesus does not “imply” that He is God it is stated outright that Jesus is God. The Qur’an is made up by a human.

If Jesus also was God so could you point an action of Jesus as God? Jesus performed miracles but many prophets did too. Jesus was raised. Anything else?

Jesus was just a prophet because Jesus did not preach until 30 years old. İn about 30s God revealed Jesus so Jesus started to preach. If Jesus Himself were God He would not wait until that times.

If you say Jesus was not God so you will lose your faith? But there are billions of people who did not say Jesus is God! God informed Himself through prophets from the first human. A faith through a prophet is valid. So if you say that Jesus was just a prophet so your faith is valid. Do not get fear.

If Jesus and God is one but the God is in Heavens(Indeed there is no physical space for God but an eternal entitiy which we cannot apprehend) and Jesus is on the world! How much percentage of God became man? Or you assume God as three persons. Hımm. Could Father be man instead of Son? Why did Father not come to do works but He always sent Holy Spirit and Son? Isn’t Father is the Boss as Qur’an mentioned? Could Son resist Father? If He could not how could He be part of deity?

You say Qur’an made up by human. You are very right. Muhammad just was a human but not son or grand child!

Qur’an is directly word of God which was revealed to Muhammad through Gabriel either you accept or not. I accept that the actual Bible was from God and later was written by people. But you do not accept Qur’an as a holy scripture. And I try to argue in patience. But you accuse to say lie or you directly reject my Holy Qur’an. Were is your love for your enemies? Do you love people in that way?

Every one could say that he is right but he could not say that he is merely right. God is not so bitter to ignore most of people.

No I do not bind God but I believe Him when Jesus says He is God. I don’t understand but no human mind can. You are trying to parse Jesus. Jesus is fully man and fully God. Jesus revealed this to us. Because you follow what I consider a false prophet you are unable to accept what scriptures clearly teach. You interpret them according to writings that I consider false. You believe that you can decide God:shrug:

You say that is a lie but it is a very true fact that Jesus never said He is God. I explained that. I can repeat that as countless. And I do that according to Bible but not according to a prophet you do not accept.

You and Church are able to interpret Bible so others are not?

And can you decide God?

Qur’an is direct word of God and in Qur’an God say He is one, eternal and has no copartners. Bible is not direct words of God but the essence words of God which were written by people later with comments added into. So the Bible could be misinterpret easily. The history attested that.

 

[hasantas]

=adrift;13104793]

Thomas called Jesus His God. Worship is giving honor to God. So you are wrong.

A mere human should have the same honor as God :nope:

5:23 So that all men may give honour to the Son even as they give honour to the Father. He who gives no honour to the Son gives no honour to the Father who sent him.

There is no equality as honour between Son and Father. It is mentioned to give the honour to Son for sake of Father sent Him. You should not to say “you are wrong”. If you point my false I can understand. And I accept that there are some statements in Bible which make it to think Jesus was God. But there are more obvious verses to think that Jesus was just a prophet.

One does not equate to the other. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus did not have an earthly father. There is metaphorical again it makes no sense which makes me wonder again do you know the meaning of the word.

It is written in Bible somewhere. Holy Spirit come unto Mary and made her pregnant so Jesus is called Son of God. Mary had pregnancy without a man and God did that directly through a miracle. a question: Why did Holy Spirit put Jesus soul into Mary and Jesus(as a god, son) did not do that by Himself? Could not He do that? Why Father sent Holy Spirit and why Son and Holy Spirit could not do anything by themselves? There are no equality between gods here!

This really doesn’t address or answer the point I made. It is a non sequitur.

Not very clear on what you are trying to state.

Put this into context because Jesus follows it with

Clearly Jesus is saying He is God. We know this because they tried to arrest Him.

They tried to arrest Him so Jesus claimed to be God? Many people are arrested so all these people claim to be God?

They did not believe that Jesus was a prophet.

14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark 14

Also

6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. Mark 6 and also(Matthew 13:54-58,

And Jesus were rejected for many cases.

What is in the Qur’an has no relation to the Bible. The Blessed one is not Mary but God as the Douay has it as

Putting it into context they said it was blasphemy. It isn’t blasphemy to be the son of Mary how utterly ridiculous to say that they were referring to Mary. Why would they consider her blessed? We as Christians do because we know who Jesus is, God and human but they didn’t know. For you state that they were referring to her is more than outlandish.

Candidly I do not know exact it point Mary. Mary is blessed and Jesus is son of Mary. We say God bless but not God is blessed. So God blessed Mary. Perhaps that could be used for God but I cannot know exactly.

If you look at Mark 14:65 they accused Jesus blasphemy to be a prophet but not son of God. High priest asked are you the son of blessed one. Jesus answered yes I am. And Jesus said: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. After that high priest rent his clothes. Jesus did not say son of God but son of man! Here He placed an emphasize to define He was a prophet and He had a great value beside God.

 

[DCNBILL]

10:34 In answer, Jesus said, Is there not a saying in your law, I said, You are gods?

10:35 If he said they were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Writings may not be broken), John 10

Jesus did not claim to be God but The Jews accused Jesus to say that. Jesus explained why He said so in the following verses(34,35). The reason is that: to whom the word of God came so they are said gods. Jesus indicated that the word of God came to Him so Jesus could be called gods according to Jews scripture(Writings).

And also the Jews did not believe in Jesus’s prophethood.

So there is no a claim by Jesus to be God!

But you stopped too soon.

The Gospel of John chapter 10

36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated* and sent into the world blasphemes ** because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?**

So Jesus says plainly in this 10 th chapter from John;

“The Father and I are one.”

and

“I am the Son of God”

He is very clear, He is obviously stating that He is God the Son.

Now you may say that Jesus was a mad man, or you may say that He was a liar and a deceiver, but you obviously can not say with any validity that He did not claim to be God.

 

[adrift]

Candidly I do not know exact it point Mary. Mary is blessed and Jesus is son of Mary. We say God bless but not God is blessed. So God blessed Mary. Perhaps that could be used for God but I cannot know exactly.
…

Jesus Christ was Son of Blessed One(Mary)! That term is repeated in Qur’an too.

There is much that I would like to answer in these post and will but right now I want to address only this:

So you admit you do not know how the high priest was pointing to Mary?

Again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said,
“I Am

It defies logic that they would call Mary blessed when they hated her Son and was putting Him on trial in order to kill Him. It is illogical to ask if Jesus was Mary’s son. It is NOT Mary that they are asking Jesus if He is the Son of but the Most High, the Blessed One, God. It is why immediately they terminate the trial as from His own mouth they have heard Him blaspheme by saying He is God.

We say God bless but not God is blessed.

Genesis 14 20: and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!"
Exodus 18 10: And Jethro said, "Blessed be the LORD, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh.
Ruth 4 14: Then the women said to Na’omi, "Blessed be the LORD, who has not left you this day without next of kin; and may his name be renowned in Israel!
1 Samuel 25 32: And David said to Ab’igail, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me!
1 Samuel 25 39: When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, “Blessed be the LORD who has avenged the insult I received at the hand of Nabal, and has kept back his servant from evil; the LORD has returned the evil-doing of Nabal upon his own head.” Then David sent and wooed Ab’igail, to make her his wife.
2 Samuel 18 28: Then Ahi’ma-az cried out to the king, “All is well.” And he bowed before the king with his face to the earth, and said, “Blessed be the LORD your God, who has delivered up the men who raised their hand against my lord the king.”
1 Kings 1 48: And the king also said, `Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who has granted one of my offspring to sit on my throne this day, my own eyes seeing it.’”
1 Chronicles 29 10: Therefore David blessed the LORD in the presence of all the assembly; and David said: "Blessed art thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
Tobit 8 5: And Tobias began to pray, "Blessed art thou, O God of our fathers, and blessed be thy holy and glorious name for ever. Let the heavens and all thy creatures bless thee.
Psalms 134 21 Blessed be the Lord out of Sion, who dwelleth in Jerusalem.
Daniel 3 52 "Blessed are you, O Lord, the God of our fathers, praiseworthy and exalted above all forever; And blessed is your holy and glorious name, praiseworthy and exalted above all for all ages.
Daniel 3 54 Blessed are you on the throne of your kingdom, praiseworthy and exalted above all forever.
Daniel 3 55 Blessed are you who look into the depths from your throne upon the cherubim, praiseworthy and exalted above all forever.
Daniel 3 56 Blessed are you in the firmament of heaven, praiseworthy and glorious forever.
2 Maccabees 1 17: Blessed in every way be our God, who has brought judgment upon those who have behaved impiously.
Luke 1 68: "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people,
2 Corinthians 11 31: The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie.
Ephesians 1 3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

 

[hasantas]

There is much that I would like to answer in these post and will but right now I want to address only this:

So you admit you do not know how the high priest was pointing to Mary?

It defies logic that they would call Mary blessed when they hated her Son and was putting Him on trial in order to kill Him. It is illogical to ask if Jesus was Mary’s son. It is NOT Mary that they are asking Jesus if He is the Son of but the Most High, the Blessed One, God. It is why immediately they terminate the trial as from His own mouth they have heard Him blaspheme by saying He is God.

Genesis 14 20: and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!"
Exodus 18 10: And Jethro said, "Blessed be the LORD, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh.
Ruth 4 14: Then the women said to Na’omi, "Blessed be the LORD, who has not left you this day without next of kin; and may his name be renowned in Israel!
1 Samuel 25 32: And David said to Ab’igail, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me!
1 Samuel 25 39: When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, “Blessed be the LORD who has avenged the insult I received at the hand of Nabal, and has kept back his servant from evil; the LORD has returned the evil-doing of Nabal upon his own head.” Then David sent and wooed Ab’igail, to make her his wife.
2 Samuel 18 28: Then Ahi’ma-az cried out to the king, “All is well.” And he bowed before the king with his face to the earth, and said, “Blessed be the LORD your God, who has delivered up the men who raised their hand against my lord the king.”
1 Kings 1 48: And the king also said, `Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who has granted one of my offspring to sit on my throne this day, my own eyes seeing it.’”
1 Chronicles 29 10: Therefore David blessed the LORD in the presence of all the assembly; and David said: "Blessed art thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
Tobit 8 5: And Tobias began to pray, "Blessed art thou, O God of our fathers, and blessed be thy holy and glorious name for ever. Let the heavens and all thy creatures bless thee.
Psalms 134 21 Blessed be the Lord out of Sion, who dwelleth in Jerusalem.
Daniel 3 52 "Blessed are you, O Lord, the God of our fathers, praiseworthy and exalted above all forever; And blessed is your holy and glorious name, praiseworthy and exalted above all for all ages.
Daniel 3 54 Blessed are you on the throne of your kingdom, praiseworthy and exalted above all forever.
Daniel 3 55 Blessed are you who look into the depths from your throne upon the cherubim, praiseworthy and exalted above all forever.
Daniel 3 56 Blessed are you in the firmament of heaven, praiseworthy and glorious forever.
2 Maccabees 1 17: Blessed in every way be our God, who has brought judgment upon those who have behaved impiously.
Luke 1 68: "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people,
2 Corinthians 11 31: The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie.
Ephesians 1 3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

Thank you. The bless mean exalt and glorify which is very best fit God as much I understand. But that do not resolve our propblem.

Did priests in that court believe that Jesus was born without a father? I mean did they accept Jesus’s birth as a miracle? If they confirmed so they would believe in Jesus as a prophet. But they did not. That is in Mark 14:65

14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark

So they did not believe in Mary as blessed and they did not believe in Jesus as a prophet. If someone is not prophet but if he claim to be prophet so that is a blasphemy. Jesus was inside of Jews community so they thought Jesus commited blasphemy because of asserting prophethood.

If even Blessed One was used for God but yet the conclusion does not change. Jesus was called Son of God because Jesus was born without a father. So people might call Him as Son of God. If people in court confirmed that Jesus was Son of God(The Most High or Blessed One) so they should believe in Jesus birth as a miracle and they would asume Jesus as a prophet. But as we know Jews did not confirm prophethood of Jesus. Jews did not accept Jesus as a prophet and they tortured Jesus much. And they insulted Jesus and ridiculed Him to stop them if Jesus was a prophet in Mark 14:65.

 

[adrift]

Thank you. The bless mean exalt and glorify which is very best fit God as much I understand. But that do not resolve our propblem.

Did priests in that court believe that Jesus was born without a father? I mean did they accept Jesus’s birth as a miracle? If they confirmed so they would believe in Jesus as a prophet. But they did not. That is in Mark 14:65

14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark

So they did not believe in Mary as blessed and they did not believe in Jesus as a prophet. If someone is not prophet but if he claim to be prophet so that is a blasphemy. Jesus was inside of Jews community so they thought Jesus commited blasphemy because of asserting prophethood.

If even Blessed One was used for God but yet the conclusion does not change. Jesus was called Son of God because Jesus was born without a father. So people might call Him as Son of God. If people in court confirmed that Jesus was Son of God(The Most High or Blessed One) so they should believe in Jesus birth as a miracle and they would asume Jesus as a prophet. But as we know Jews did not confirm prophethood of Jesus. Jews did not accept Jesus as a prophet and they tortured Jesus much. And they insulted Jesus and ridiculed Him to stop them if Jesus was a prophet in Mark 14:65.

They thought Jesus’ father was Joseph. His miraculous birth did not become known until after His resurrection. Please support your statement that to claim to be a prophet was blasphemy. That is not the definition of blasphemy. The definition is speaking contemptuously of the Deity. Being a prophet would not be blasphemy.
Oh and where does Jesus say He is a prophet?

 

[friardchips]

“Humanity” is an abstraction and, as such, can’t do anything, including killing God. Individual men killed God (the Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate at the bequest of the Sanhedrin).

Every time we sin, we nail our Lord to the Cross all over again. Remember, that our Creator is outside of time. Otherwise, it would not be said and known that He died for our sins. He bore our sins on His shoulders. This is not just a metaphor/analogy or whatever you want to call it. It is the truth. He took on the sins of the whole world.

 

[hasantas]

They thought Jesus’ father was Joseph. His miraculous birth did not become known until after His resurrection. Please support your statement that to claim to be a prophet was blasphemy. That is not the definition of blasphemy. The definition is speaking contemptuously of the Deity. Being a prophet would not be blasphemy.
Oh and where does Jesus say He is a prophet?

If somene claim that he takes revelation from God but if indeed he does not so he lie about God and that is blasphemy. And to say false prophet about a man mean to impute him blasphemy sin. False prophethood assert is mortal sin:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

13:1 If ever you have among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder takes place, and he says to you, Let us go after other gods, which are strange to you, and give them worship;
13:3 Then give no attention to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God is testing you, to see if all the love of your heart and soul is given to him.
13:4 But keep on in the ways of the Lord your God, fearing him and keeping his orders and hearing his voice, worshipping him and being true to him.
13:5 And that prophet or that dreamer of dreams is to be put to death; for his words were said with the purpose of turning you away from the Lord your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt and made you free from the prison-house; and of forcing you out of the way in which the Lord your God has given you orders to go. So you are to put away the evil from among you. Deuteronomy

Where Jesus says He is a prophet? Here:

6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. Mark 6

 

[hasantas]

Every time we sin, we nail our Lord to the Cross all over again. Remember, that our Creator is outside of time. Otherwise, it would not be said and known that He died for our sins. He bore our sins on His shoulders. This is not just a metaphor/analogy or whatever you want to call it. It is the truth. He took on the sins of the whole world.

There are prophets who were killed and tortured. So did not those prophets bear our sins?

You say Jesus died! By which nature? By the deity nature or the humanity? If by deity nature so how can an eternal being been sacrificed? If by human nature so there are many prophets were killed? If you say the human nature is holy as deity nature so why to call it human nature?

Do God suffer? If God suffer so God is not almighty and omnipotent anymore, is He? Do God cannot see and feel what human nature suffer without being man? Isn’t God almighty? Do God can not do that?

Jesus was sent to save humanbeing from sins and that is very true. It is written in Bible.

1:21 And she will give birth to a son; and you will give him the name Jesus; for he will give his people salvation from their sins. Matthew

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John

Notice that it is not written to sacrifice Jesus. Just to save from sins!

But through which way?

Ofcourse by preaching what God revealed to Him.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John

If some believe in Jesus was sent by God and have faith and do good deeds and repent for sins etc so that can be saved. That is what exact Jesus taught and did.

Except four Gospels other parts could hold apprehensions and interpretations of writers. Yet there are not original texts of Gospels.

And what Qur’an say?

…no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another… Al-Isra(17):15

 

[friardchips]

There are prophets who were killed and tortured. So did not those prophets bear our sins?

Our Lord was and is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. So no, they didn’t.

You say Jesus died! By which nature?

By the deity nature or the humanity?/

His human nature died. He was both fully man and Divine.

If by deity nature so how can an eternal being been sacrificed?

He was fully both. His human nature died but being Consubstantial with the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit, His Eternal Spirit could not die. Which is why He was raised up.

If by human nature so there are many prophets were killed? If you say the human nature is holy as deity nature so why to call it human nature?

He was fully both. He was not Elijah or Moses or Abraham or any other prophet; He was both fully man and the Second Person.

Do God suffer?

He suffered then because He lived as a human as well as being Divine.

If God suffer so God is not almighty and omnipotent anymore, is He?

His Almightiness is proven in His willingness to suffer for us.

Yes, He was both fully man and fully Divine.

Do God cannot see and feel what human nature suffer without being man? Isn’t God almighty? Do God can not do that?

The same applies: He was fully man and fully the Second Person. So yes, He suffered.

Jesus was sent to save humanbeing from sins and that is very true. It is written in Bible.

1:21 And she will give birth to a son; and you will give him the name Jesus; for he will give his people salvation from their sins. Matthew

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John

Notice that it is not written to sacrifice Jesus. Just to save from sins!

He was the true Paschal Lamb. It is there in Scripture, prophesied. He sacrificed Himself for the sins of many. You will find this written by St. Paul and /or St. Peter. IOW, He preached the Good News knowing full well this would endanger Him and bring Him to a sacrificial end. The Good News being Himself.

But through which way?

Ofcourse by preaching what God revealed to Him.

He was in perfect relation to the Father as Second Person.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John

If some believe in Jesus was sent by God and have faith and do good deeds and repent for sins etc so that can be saved. That is what exact Jesus taught and did.

He was sent by the Father, and this was before He was human. This would not have been against the Father’s wishes - the Second Person, before He was human, would have wished for the same as His Father. St. Augustine of Hippo wrote of an imaginary discussion, in human terms, to reason and understand the love and understanding between the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son share the same Nature, Love, and so, what the Father would have wished, so the Son would have wished also. The Son would have wished the world to know and love His Father more personally and He Himself would bring Joy and true Love to the world, as He Himself, IS, Joy Incarnate, and the Father would have wished the world to know Him more fully, through love and adoration of His Beloved Son. That man could be saved from death and our Lord could have many brothers and sisters.

Except four Gospels other parts could hold apprehensions and interpretations of writers. Yet there are not original texts of Gospels.

And what Qur’an say?

…no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another… Al-Isra(17):15

I stick to Gospel Truth.

We are to burden ourselves with the care of others, as in written in the Commandments, to love one another. Just as it was said by the Second Person Himself, for us to put our burdens onto Him by coming to Him, which we can do because His Yoke is easy and His burden Light.

He also said Himself many times that we are to help wash one another with love - to love one another - as He has loved us.

Peace and all good.

 

[clem456]

Two radically different views of the nature of God.

One finds it impossible for God to debase himself in human nature.
The other finds God’s love so overwhelming that he could do nothing else but give himself completely to us.

 

[fhansen]

Two radically different views of the nature of God.

One finds it impossible for God to debase himself in human nature.
The other finds God’s love so overwhelming that he could do nothing else but give himself completely to us.

Yes, a basic difference in concept about who God is-and what love would do.

 

[adrift]

If somene claim that he takes revelation from God but if indeed he does not so he lie about God and that is blasphemy. And to say false prophet about a man mean to impute him blasphemy sin. False prophethood assert is mortal sin:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

13:1 If ever you have among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder takes place, and he says to you, Let us go after other gods, which are strange to you, and give them worship;
13:3 Then give no attention to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God is testing you, to see if all the love of your heart and soul is given to him.
13:4 But keep on in the ways of the Lord your God, fearing him and keeping his orders and hearing his voice, worshipping him and being true to him.
13:5 And that prophet or that dreamer of dreams is to be put to death; for his words were said with the purpose of turning you away from the Lord your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt and made you free from the prison-house; and of forcing you out of the way in which the Lord your God has given you orders to go. So you are to put away the evil from among you. Deuteronomy

Nowhere does it say that it is blasphemy. It is talking about serving a false god not blasphemy.

Where Jesus says He is a prophet? Here:

6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. Mark 6

Nope. Jesus does not say I am a prophet. In case my point is flying over your head you insist on Jesus stating “I am God” to believe that He claimed to be God. Now you are saying He said He was a prophet the same proof you demand I now demand of you where does Jesus say “I am a prophet”?

As far as the trial goes we have Jesus being asked our you the Son of God and Jesus answering I AM. Compare the trial here with the other Gospels. It is indisputable for all but the blind. Nowhere do you see that Jesus was found guilty of being a false prophet. You have to read that into the text.

 

[hasantas]

Our Lord was and is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. So no, they didn’t.

His human nature died. He was both fully man and Divine.

He was fully both. His human nature died but being Consubstantial with the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit, His Eternal Spirit could not die. Which is why He was raised up.

He was fully both. He was not Elijah or Moses or Abraham or any other prophet; He was both fully man and the Second Person.

He suffered then because He lived as a human as well as being Divine.

His Almightiness is proven in His willingness to suffer for us.

Yes, He was both fully man and fully Divine.

The same applies: He was fully man and fully the Second Person. So yes, He suffered.

He was the true Paschal Lamb. It is there in Scripture, prophesied. He sacrificed Himself for the sins of many. You will find this written by St. Paul and /or St. Peter. IOW, He preached the Good News knowing full well this would endanger Him and bring Him to a sacrificial end. The Good News being Himself.

He was in perfect relation to the Father as Second Person.

He was sent by the Father, and this was before He was human. This would not have been against the Father’s wishes - the Second Person, before He was human, would have wished for the same as His Father. St. Augustine of Hippo wrote of an imaginary discussion, in human terms, to reason and understand the love and understanding between the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son share the same Nature, Love, and so, what the Father would have wished, so the Son would have wished also. The Son would have wished the world to know and love His Father more personally and He Himself would bring Joy and true Love to the world, as He Himself, IS, Joy Incarnate, and the Father would have wished the world to know Him more fully, through love and adoration of His Beloved Son. That man could be saved from death and our Lord could have many brothers and sisters.

I stick to Gospel Truth.

We are to burden ourselves with the care of others, as in written in the Commandments, to love one another. Just as it was said by the Second Person Himself, for us to put our burdens onto Him by coming to Him, which we can do because His Yoke is easy and His burden Light.

He also said Himself many times that we are to help wash one another with love - to love one another - as He has loved us.

Peace and all good.

Human nature of God! Human has a soul and that soul animate body. Now do you mean that the essence or soul of God settled in body? But the essence of God is eternal and an eternal entity do not settle in time and space!

Or did God create a soul for the human nature and later united with that in any way? But with human nature Jesus is an apart person anymore so an another conflict emerge from that. First we should unite three divine entities in one personality! and later stick them a human nature. Whew I cannot coprehend and I should sing small.

For God being man is very serious case and there should be many evidences and details for that. God to inform Himself sent many prophets and gave them miracles and scriptures. But there are no any annonated statements for that in the Bible. It can be concluded merely through strained interpretation. A crucial issue should not be so doubtful. And Jesus merely lived, behaved, talked with a human nature.

All right. But how that deducted and reasoned from Gospels? Just in that way:

There are such statements “Son of Father or God” for Jesus. That can interpreted in many ways

God do not have a child. Until Jesus God never informed previous prophets about His Son. God always declared that He is one but not two or three.

Believers could be called as Chidren of God. But that does not mean God have an army of little gods. Jesus is called Son of God because Jesus was born without a father.

Jesus was word of God(Kalimatullah) and word of God is eternal. But that does not mean Jesus is eternal. God say a word(be!) for something to happen and that thing happens immediatily. So God said “be” and Jesus was born without a father. That is so easy for God. So in the beginning was the “word” and the word became flesh.

 

[hasantas]

Two radically different views of the nature of God.

One finds it impossible for God to debase himself in human nature.
The other finds God’s love so overwhelming that he could do nothing else but give himself completely to us.

Love is one of the biggest reason to create universes. Love is the most intense connection of unity. But God is not merely love. All attributes of God are eternal so we cannot say that attribute is above other.

So God have also eternal Grace and Mercy.That eternal Grace and Mercy could forgive sins and exactly that attributes are for that. Grace and Mercy could be more certain. God loves His art and creatures but there is no reason for God to sacrifice Himself for salvation of human. The sacrifice is given from low to above and from weak to powerful. But powerful do not give sacrifice to weak.

If God sacrificed Himself for human sins so will not anybody go Hell? As we know some people will go Hell. If God paid for that but yet God cannot prevent people to go Hell. Then God is more weak than Himself!

If you say people must believe in God and do good deeds and repent for sins etc… Well if people do those right here Mercy and Grace move in.

God love His creatures so God sent many Servants and Prophets. If you say we have to believe in that God(Son) sacrificed Himself so we should have a salvation? Or if God did not sacrificed Himself so we would never have a salvation?

Before Jesus people believed in prophets so they could have a salvation. It is not importand either God is in body or not but that human nature was sent in the name of God. So to believe in prophet mean to believe in God. If God sacrificed Himself and people have to know that to have salvation but people before Jesus never knew that? So were they unbelievers? Will they go Hell? Or will God punish them? Isn’t God also justice?

For salvation: faith(believing in God), good deeds, repentance for sins etc. It is not importand if you are Christian or Muslim or other.

 

[hasantas]

=adrift;13112370]Nowhere does it say that it is blasphemy. It is talking about serving a false god not blasphemy.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, …

Who shall presume to speak a word in the name of God shall die. That is the punisment of words against God. And they just did.

14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
14:63 And the high priest, violently parting his robes, said, What more need have we of witnesses?
14:64 His words against God have come to your ears: what is your opinion? And they all said it was right for him to be put to death.

High priest parted his robes after Jesus said “you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” And also Jesus said Son of man but not Son of God! So Jesus did not say for himself Son of God but Son of man(human)!

Nope. Jesus does not say I am a prophet. In case my point is flying over your head you insist on Jesus stating “I am God” to believe that He claimed to be God. Now you are saying He said He was a prophet the same proof you demand I now demand of you where does Jesus say “I am a prophet”?

As far as the trial goes we have Jesus being asked our you the Son of God and Jesus answering I AM. Compare the trial here with the other Gospels. It is indisputable for all but the blind. Nowhere do you see that Jesus was found guilty of being a false prophet. You have to read that into the text.

Yeah. It is not written directly and all doctrines were made through interpretations. But Jesus never directly said I am God. But when Jesus talked about Himself He said prophet in that: 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

When they asked Jesus to be Son of the Blessed One Jesus said I AM. Jesus was Son of Mary(6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. Mark) and Mary was blessed. Jesus was called Son of God because Jesus was born without a father. The priests in court did not believe that.

They accused Jesus to be a false prophet. It is written in the following: 65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark 14

I try to seek through scope but yet I am blind! Just think that for yourself!

 

[clem456]

Love is one of the biggest reason to create universes. Love is the most intense connection of unity. But God is not merely love. All attributes of God are eternal so we cannot say that attribute is above other.

If God is not love before and above all else, then consider an unavoidable fact of life:

You are -not- God. If God’s justice is not trumped by his love and mercy, then you and I deserve to be vaporized, because God is perfect, and we, by definition, are -not- perfect. It would be justice for us to be condemned for our imperfections before a perfect God. We can never perfect as God is perfect, so in your point of view, there is no hope. You can never satisfy God’s justice. There is a great chasm between you and God.

Christianity rejects this point of view. We believe God’s love bridges that chasm. God is love. Because he is love, he loves us as we are, and participates fully in our existence. We who deserve to be vaporized because we are not perfection, are perfected through his condescension and participation in our humanity.

Love pours itself out completely, with nothing held back. It does not bow to justice, or anything else. All else is contained in love, all else serves love. Justice serves love. God is love, and because he is love, he is also just.

Because justice serves love, a just God condescends to live and die and rise with us, as one of us, while we are still sinners. He is not afraid to dirty his hands with us. Any good father would take the place of his suffering children and bear their burdens. This is the awesome, all-powerful, love of God…not merely that he can do anything he wills, but that he wills to be one of us, to bear our mistakes and burdens. If God does not do this, then you and I are hopelessly condemned before God’s justice. Or do you claim that you can be God?

These are not merely debates over semantics about the nature of God, these are two radically different concepts of God with huge ramifications for human flourishing and dignity.

 

[adrift]

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, …

Who shall presume to speak a word in the name of God shall die. That is the punisment of words against God. And they just did.

14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
14:63 And the high priest, violently parting his robes, said, What more need have we of witnesses?
14:64 His words against God have come to your ears: what is your opinion? And they all said it was right for him to be put to death.

The problem is the old testament scripture does not say that prophets who speak what God does not want them to speak are blaspheming. They first ask Jesus if He is the Son of God which He directly answers I AM thereby being accused of blaspheming. That they would see Him coming on a cloud from heaven is only confirming that statement.

High priest parted his robes after Jesus said “you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” And also Jesus said Son of man but not Son of God! So Jesus did not say for himself Son of God but Son of man(human)!

We have already gone over this ground. Of course Jesus is Human, but He is also divine as He says I Am the Son of the Blessed. As has been established, the Blessed is God. Compare the other accounts of the trial. Your interpretation that it is Mary fails as it is illogical.

Yeah. It is not written directly and all doctrines were made through interpretations. But Jesus never directly said I am God. But when Jesus talked about Himself He said prophet in that: 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

You can’t have it both ways. Now if you are going to say that Jesus didn’t say He was God directly than He isn’t God you must hold He is not a prophet because He didn’t say it directly. However, I have shown you many place Jesus said that He is God directly. He used the Name of God for himself “I AM”

When they asked Jesus to be Son of the Blessed One Jesus said I AM. Jesus was Son of Mary(6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. Mark) and Mary was blessed. Jesus was called Son of God because Jesus was born without a father. The priests in court did not believe that.

Why do you repeat this nonsense? They would not have called Mary the Blessed one. It is beyond ridiculous for you to keep repeating this as if I have not written that they would not have called a woman of the Man that they were trying to kill blessed. To them she was an ordinary woman hardly blessed. The Holy One is God to which Jesus stated I am. You have no basis to write again that this refers to Mary. It does not.

They accused Jesus to be a false prophet. It is written in the following: 65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark 14

I try to seek through scope but yet I am blind! Just think that for yourself!

This does not show that they accused Him of being a false prophet. You have not been able to substantiate that it was blasphemy to be a false prophet. In what you have quoted blasphemy, a false prophet is blasphemy is not mentioned.
When you repeat the same nonsense without acknowledging the answer, as if none was given, wouldn’t you call it blind?

 

[adrift]

Human nature of God! Human has a soul and that soul animate body. Now do you mean that the essence or soul of God settled in body? But the essence of God is eternal and an eternal entity do not settle in time and space!

Or did God create a soul for the human nature and later united with that in any way? But with human nature Jesus is an apart person anymore so an another conflict emerge from that. First we should unite three divine entities in one personality! and later stick them a human nature. Whew I cannot coprehend and I should sing small.

For God being man is very serious case and there should be many evidences and details for that. God to inform Himself sent many prophets and gave them miracles and scriptures. But there are no any annonated statements for that in the Bible. It can be concluded merely through strained interpretation. A crucial issue should not be so doubtful. And Jesus merely lived, behaved, talked with a human nature.

All right. But how that deducted and reasoned from Gospels? Just in that way:

There are such statements “Son of Father or God” for Jesus. That can interpreted in many ways

God do not have a child. Until Jesus God never informed previous prophets about His Son. God always declared that He is one but not two or three.

Believers could be called as Chidren of God. But that does not mean God have an army of little gods. Jesus is called Son of God because Jesus was born without a father.

Jesus was word of God(Kalimatullah) and word of God is eternal. But that does not mean Jesus is eternal. God say a word(be!) for something to happen and that thing happens immediatily. So God said “be” and Jesus was born without a father. That is so easy for God. So in the beginning was the “word” and the word became flesh.

Philippians 2

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 6
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, 8 he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. 9 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.

John I

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be 4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; 5 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.