If God became man

[adrift]

Jews killed Zachariah because they did not believe Mary was pure. Mary was in good care of Zachariah but some Jews did not believe in that Jesus was born without a father and they aspered and libeled Zachariah and killed Him. Why would Jews not try to kill Jesus in same way because Jesus claimed to be son of blessed Mary without a father?

As you see killing a prophet was more usual for them and there is no need to be a claim by one to be son of God but to be prophet is enough as it was used to be.

I did not address this so will do so now.

The Jews had no idea that Jesus had no earthly father. They assumed that His father was Mary’s husband Joseph. I have already provided scripture that the Jews regarded Joseph as Jesus’ father. There is no scripture to support that Jesus claimed to be the son of Mary without a father. There is absolutely no scripture that states or even hints that Jesus was killed because He claimed to be a prophet. There is scripture that states that He blasphemed which I provided the definition. Jesus said He was God that was blasphemy for the Jews. When the Jews killed the prophets it was not for blasphemy. They were usually killed because they told the Jews that they were sinning. Just as John the Baptist was killed for chastising Harod for marrying his brothers wife.

 

[Bahman]

How do you come to the conclusion that Moses’ demonstration of God’s power convinced the Israelites of anything?? Maybe temporarily.

They were unconvinced of God’s power even after he worked awesome wonders before their eyes. Brought them out of slavery, parted the Red Sea, etc…They quickly went back to their old ways.

They didn’t believe in God because they were selfish and idolatrous, preferring themselves to God.
Same in Jesus’ time.
Same in our time.

So according to your argument there was no Jew at the time of Jesus. You see your argument makes no sense.

 

[Bahman]

The Jews didn’t believe the miracle of His resurrection. Why weren’t they convinced? Hardness of heart, God doesn’t force anyone.

This statement doesn’t make sense since Jew became Jew because they believe in miracle.

I hope you realize that your statement that people are able to make a good story applies to you too.

I don’t think so because I carefully analyze any situation.

 

[adrift]

So according to your argument there was no Jew at the time of Jesus. You see your argument makes no sense.

How do you extract there were not Jews from his statement?

This statement doesn’t make sense since Jew became Jew because they believe in miracle.

This statement is contrary to fact.

I don’t think so because I carefully analyze any situation.

Obviously not from these statements you don’t understand what is being said.

You asked why God didn’t provide a miracle so the Jews would believe.
You are mistaken because God provided the miracle of Jesus’ resurrection.
clem456 answered that God provided many miracles such as the parting of the seas and yet they did not believe
Your answer to both shows no careful analyze or careful reply.

 

[Bahman]

How do you extract there were not Jews from his statement?

This statement is contrary to fact.

Obviously not from these statements you don’t understand what is being said.

You asked why God didn’t provide a miracle so the Jews would believe.
You are mistaken because God provided the miracle of Jesus’ resurrection.
clem456 answered that God provided many miracles such as the parting of the seas and yet they did not believe
Your answer to both shows no careful analyze or careful reply.

Those who didn’t believe Mouses’s miracles apparently are now Jew.

 

[adrift]

Those who didn’t believe Mouses’s miracles apparently are now Jew.

Straw man It is not what was said.

 

[Bahman]

Straw man It is not what was said.

I forget a question mark.

 

[adrift]

I forget a question mark.

Why he didn’t convinced Jew with a miracle that he is really son of God? And many other question.

To quote Jesus

Luke 16
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus foretold the answer to your question. Even when He rose from the dead they would not listen.

 

[Servant19]

How do you come to the conclusion that Moses’ demonstration of God’s power convinced the Israelites of anything?? Maybe temporarily.

They were unconvinced of God’s power even after he worked awesome wonders before their eyes. Brought them out of slavery, parted the Red Sea, etc…They quickly went back to their old ways.

They didn’t believe in God because they were selfish and idolatrous, preferring themselves to God.
Same in Jesus’ time.
Same in our time.

So the performance of miracles is pretty irrelevant when it comes to faith, wouldn’t you agree?

.

 

[hasantas]

It’s a very simple proposition.
You accept that God is all powerful, and at the same time claim that God could not take on flesh.
If God is all powerful, he can do as he pleases for those he loves. Is he able to take on human flesh or is he not?

God create flesh and all every thing. God is not part of what He created. There is a certain distinction between the eternal and mortal. There is no evolution from eternal to mortal.

Body is not part of soul but body(matter) is a home for soul. Without body the soul can exist but the body cannot survive without soul. The body dissolve after soul get out through death. So the spirit do not turn into flesh but the spirit settle in flesh and animate and order the flesh. The body has no senses but the soul has. The soul feel through body organs but also the spirit can see, hear, feel without body.

So if we assume the eternal essence of God as a spirit (indeed we cannot because we cannot know and comprehend exactly the eternal essence) then that spirit do not transform into flesh but it could be assumed to settle in flesh. But the eternal soul is out of time and space and eternal spirit contain and surround all time and space. That mean the eternal spirit do not settle in time and matter but it surround and effect everything. And also eternal spirit (God essence) can feel without getting into body.

The eternal essence do not come nearer to feel, see or hear more best but the eternal essence can feel, hear or see the best without time and space.

Your question that is God not able to take on flesh is nonsense. It is like a kind of question which atheist ask just like that: Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself?

The stupidity of question is that both the eternal and mortal essences are assumed to be equal but they are very very different.

 

[hasantas]

=adrift;13124684]****
You base this on what? At any rate, John was not killed because he blasphemed but because he was a thorn to Herod.

Just to be clear I do not dispute that the prophets were treated badly by their people. I wanted to see your response.

Some Pharisees and Sadduces did wrong works and John warned them.

3:7 But when he saw a number of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of snakes, at whose word are you going in flight from the wrath to come?
3:8 Let your change of heart be seen in your works:
3:9 And say not to yourselves, We have Abraham for our father; because I say to you that God is able from these stones to make children for Abraham.
3:10 And even now the axe is put to the root of the trees; every tree then which does not give good fruit is cut down, and put into the fire. Matthew

The prophets were killed and these prophets did not claim to be God. Then why did they kill prophets but prophets did not claim to be God(blasphemy)?

You see there is no reason to be claim of deity but being prophet is enough. Because some people did not believe in prophets and those people did not want to obey prophets. Prophets ordered people to not commit sin but weak disposition people did not obey prophets so they rejected and tortured prophets.

This is a curious statement. Are you referring to Zachariah the father of John? He did not take care of Mary (Joseph her husband did), He was not killed by the Jews, nor was he a prophet.

Mary was im temple of Zachariah and grew up in care of Zachariah. Joseph took care of Mary after Jesus was born. So people libeled Zachariah about Mary. Zachariah had a son (John) for about 6 months before Jesus was born.

The issue is that Zachariah was killed and He was a prophet.

[en.wikipedia.org/.../Zechariah_(Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Zechariah_(Hebrew)…

 

[grannymh]

If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?

If we did not kill God, how exactly was it a sacrifice?

.

My apology for not totally understanding the question “If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?”

I am having trouble understanding the “god” in the “if” question. Are you referring to some organized religion that belies that God became man? Or maybe --are you referring to an hypothetical god which would not make sense because of the principle of non-contradiction.

Most likely, I am confused because all religions do not have the same beliefs in the super-natural. On the other hand, Catholicism does not teach that “God became man” end of story. Catholicism includes the answer to how Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. Jesus assumed human nature. He did not absorb human nature.

Information source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 456-483. Reference to assume not absorb is paragraph 470.

Link to Catechism
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[clem456]

God create flesh and all every thing. God is not part of what He created. There is a certain distinction between the eternal and mortal. There is no evolution from eternal to mortal.

Body is not part of soul but body(matter) is a home for soul. Without body the soul can exist but the body cannot survive without soul. The body dissolve after soul get out through death. So the spirit do not turn into flesh but the spirit settle in flesh and animate and order the flesh. The body has no senses but the soul has. The soul feel through body organs but also the spirit can see, hear, feel without body.

So if we assume the eternal essence of God as a spirit (indeed we cannot because we cannot know and comprehend exactly the eternal essence) then that spirit do not transform into flesh but it could be assumed to settle in flesh. But the eternal soul is out of time and space and eternal spirit contain and surround all time and space. That mean the eternal spirit do not settle in time and matter but it surround and effect everything. And also eternal spirit (God essence) can feel without getting into body.

The eternal essence do not come nearer to feel, see or hear more best but the eternal essence can feel, hear or see the best without time and space.

Your question that is God not able to take on flesh is nonsense. It is like a kind of question which atheist ask just like that: Can God create a stone which is bigger than Himself?

The stupidity of question is that both the eternal and mortal essences are assumed to be equal but they are very very different.

Well, you obviously know the mind of God very intimately, what he is limited to, what he is capable of, what he is not capable of, etc…
There is not much I can add to the discussion. You have it covered.

 

[adrift]

Some Pharisees and Sadduces did wrong works and John warned them.

3:7 But when he saw a number of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of snakes, at whose word are you going in flight from the wrath to come?
3:8 Let your change of heart be seen in your works:
3:9 And say not to yourselves, We have Abraham for our father; because I say to you that God is able from these stones to make children for Abraham.
3:10 And even now the axe is put to the root of the trees; every tree then which does not give good fruit is cut down, and put into the fire. Matthew

The prophets were killed and these prophets did not claim to be God. Then why did they kill prophets but prophets did not claim to be God(blasphemy)?You see there is no reason to be claim of deity but being prophet is enough. Because some people did not believe in prophets and those people did not want to obey prophets.** Prophets ordered people to not commit sin but weak disposition people did not obey prophets so they rejected and tortured prophets. **

John was not killed for a different reason than any of the other prophets who were killed or mistreated. The reason was not blasphemy as you say they didn’t claim to be God. The people were offended by them because they chastised them as John. As you yourself state, they resented being told of their sins just as Herod and Herodias did. This does not translate into the people accusing them of blasphemy. As you state, they did not claim to be God hence no blasphemy.

Mary was im temple of Zachariah and grew up in care of Zachariah. Joseph took care of Mary after Jesus was born. So people libeled Zachariah about Mary. Zachariah had a son (John) for about 6 months before Jesus was born.

The issue is that Zachariah was killed and He was a prophet.

[en.wikipedia.org/.../Zechariah_(Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Zechariah_(Hebrew)…

This is an apocryphal tell one that is not in my Bible. Zachariah did not have a temple. He served as a priest in the temple. In scripture there is nothing about Mary’s childhood. What is claimed is from the apocryphal book of James. In my opinion who ever wrote it mixed up two Zechariah’s. Zechariah son of Barachiah who was a minor prophet in the Hebrew Scriptures(Jesus mentions in the context of being killed) and Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah.,father of John.(who is not mentioned in scripture after John’s birth)
btw your link did not work

 

[adrift]

Well, you obviously know the mind of God very intimately, what he is limited to, what he is capable of, what he is not capable of, etc…
There is not much I can add to the discussion. You have it covered.

 

[hasantas]

You still have not provided any evidence that they were persecuted or killed because they committed blasphemy.
Definition of blasphemy

Why the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy

Mt. 26:63-64;Mk. 14:61-62;Lk. 22:70;Jn. 10:30 - Jesus claims to be the Son of God.

Yes Jesus was Son of God but not God. And Jesus explain that in underlined statements in these verses:

10:30 I and my Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10

The word of God came unto Jesus and unto whom the word of God come he is called gods. But they are not god! And also Jesus was born without a father so Jesus could name Himself Son of God. And the priests in court misinterpreted Jesus as it is explained in John 10:30-36 . They libeled Jesus to commit blasphemy because they did not believe He was prophet and was born without a father.

Jesus said God sent me. God had sent prophets before but not another god. Jesus implied that He did what exactly Father(God) ordered Him. İf Jesus was a God at least He would have a little initiative.

Ex. 3:14 - In the Old Testament, God reveals His name as “I AM who AM”.

Jn. 8:24,58 - In the New Testament, Jesus says of Himself, “Before Abraham was, I AM”.

That is not enough importand argument to recognise. I call myself “I AM” so AM I God?

Mt. 2:2,11;8:2;14:33;28:9;28:17;Lk. 24:52;Jn. 9:38 – Jesus allows Jews to worship Him. Only God can be worshipped.

2:2 Saying, Where is the King of the Jews whose birth has now taken place? We have seen his star in the east and have come to give him worship.

2:11 And they came into the house, and saw the young child with Mary, his mother; and falling down on their faces they gave him worship; and from their store they gave him offerings of gold, perfume, and spices.

The word of “worship” may mean regard and respect in these verses otherwise nobody worship a king or a young child as a God. Also Jesus was a young child and He had not said I am son of God yet!

Mt. 9:2;Mk. 2:5;Lk. 5:20;7:48 – Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Jesus did not say I forgive but Jesus said your sins are forgiven. That means Jesus just had knowledge from God about sins. And also if Jesus could forgive sins then why did Jesus allow God to make Him a sacrifice?

Jesus had not came by Himself decision but by order of God. And Jesus could pray God to forgive sins. And it is written that God allowed such thing:
9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men. Matthew

Mt. 4:7;Lk. 4:12 – Jesus tells Satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.

Jesus reference to God. The exact meaning is that: God has laws just gravity. So if you drop from high the conclusion is certain and God do not change His laws generally except miracles. Jesus was a human so Jesus could not do that by Himself. That could be possible merely through miracle. Satan said God will sent angels to rescue you but Jesus had no knowledge about that. And if Jesus was God so how could Satan do such thing?

 

[adrift]

Yes Jesus was Son of God but not God. And Jesus explain
The word of God came unto Jesus and unto whom the word of God come he is called gods. But they are not god!

:banghead:

But you stopped too soon.

The Gospel of John chapter 10

36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated* and sent into the world blasphemes ** because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?**

So Jesus says plainly in this 10 th chapter from John;

“The Father and I are one.”

and

“I am the Son of God”

He is very clear, He is obviously stating that He is God the Son.

Now you may say that Jesus was a mad man, or you may say that He was a liar and a deceiver, but you obviously can not say with any validity that He did not claim to be God.

You take one verse twist it and ignore the many other versus where Jesus says clearly He is the son of God

 

[adrift]

And also Jesus was born without a father so Jesus could name Himself Son of God. And the priests in court misinterpreted Jesus as it is explained in John 10:30-36 . They libeled Jesus to commit blasphemy because they did not believe He was prophet and was born without a father.

:banghead:
Jesus had a father named Joseph. The priest and the people recognized only Joseph as His father. They did not know that He was immaculately conceived. They believed Jesus was blaspheming because He said He was God. To be a prophet was not blasphemy as you have been unable to prove different. Jesus was not born without a father He was conceived immaculately which they had no way of knowing.

 

[adrift]

That is not enough importand argument to recognise. I call myself “I AM” so AM I God?

Silly you. Scripture was provided to show that I AM is the name of God. The Jews understood He was calling Himself by the name of God because they tried to stone Him. Frankly, the argument you use here is just plain ignorant of scripture. It makes your arguments “not enough important argument to recognize”

2:2 Saying, Where is the King of the Jews whose birth has now taken place? We have seen his star in the east and have come to give him worship.

2:11 And they came into the house, and saw the young child with Mary, his mother; and falling down on their faces they gave him worship; and from their store they gave him offerings of gold, perfume, and spices.

The word of “worship” may mean regard and respect in these verses otherwise nobody worship a king or a young child as a God. Also Jesus was a young child and He had not said I am son of God yet!

I know you probably didn’t mean to but your last sentence admits that you believe that He said He is the Son of God.
You are making an unfounded assumption. We worship Jesus as a child. The Spanish call Him El Nino. We celebrate Christmas which is about Jesus being born.

Jesus did not say I forgive but Jesus said your sins are forgiven. That means Jesus just had knowledge from God about sins. And also if Jesus could forgive sins then why did Jesus allow God to make Him a sacrifice?

Jesus had not came by Himself decision but by order of God. And Jesus could pray God to forgive sins. And it is written that God allowed such thing:
9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men. Matthew

:banghead:
Did you miss my note or just ignore it?

Note:
I realize that you say that Jesus says that your sins are forgiven and not I forgive your sins. If you are going to claim that Jesus didn’t forgive sins you are going to have to do better than say “Jesus was just saying your sins are forgiven not I forgive sins” Who is Jesus to say that your sins are forgiven.? Unless He was God because that is God’s providence only He can say who’s sins are forgiven. It is incorrect interpretation also because those around Him say “only God can forgive sins” They understand that Jesus is forgiving sins. To interpret the way you do ignores the context of the scripture. As I have mentioned before, Jesus gives the power to His apostles to forgive sins. Again showing He is God

Jesus reference to God. The exact meaning is that: God has laws just gravity. So if you drop from high the conclusion is certain and God do not change His laws generally except miracles. Jesus was a human so Jesus could not do that by Himself. That could be possible merely through miracle. Satan said God will sent angels to rescue you but Jesus had no knowledge about that. And if Jesus was God so how could Satan do such thing?

Was He? I don’t believe so. I am shocked that you know exactly what Jesus knew. Well I really am not shocked as I don’t believe you do.

 

[grannymh]

Yes Jesus was Son of God but not God. And Jesus explain that in underlined statements in these verses:

First. I appreciated your post 210. It was a good learning opportunity. Interesting to me were the points which were similar to Catholic teaching in some manner.

Regarding that Jesus is the Son of God – that was one of the first battles in the early Catholic Church. An intelligent man named Arius taught that Jesus was not of the same divine substance as God. Therefore, Jesus was the highest created being. To me that sounds like He was the Son of God but not Himself God. Then there was the battle over the Holy Spirit in chapter 14, Gospel of John. My high school teacher loved to teach about the early Church Councils which eventually put Divine Revelation into written form. Me, the more those early Catholics yelled at each other …it definitely was not boring.

When the dust settled, the Catholic teaching is that there are three Divine Persons in one Nature. This is the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity. And it is not going to change no matter how many people interpret Sacred Scripture. The way I keep Jesus Christ straight is that I say that God is three Persons in one Nature and Jesus Christ is one Person with two Natures.

Jesus did not say I forgive but Jesus said your sins are forgiven. That means Jesus just had knowledge from God about sins. And also if Jesus could forgive sins then why did Jesus allow God to make Him a sacrifice?

Now that you know that I am not going to change my acceptance that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, I will quickly say that because Jesus is God, He could forgive sins.

Regarding the question – “And also if Jesus could forgive sins then why did Jesus allow God to make Him a sacrifice?”

That, my friend, is another ball game. The short version is that the human Adam shattered the relationship which his Divine Creator had given him. Adam simply did not have what it takes to repair a divine relationship. John 3: 16-17. Therefore, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity assumed, not absorbed, human nature. Being both True Man and True God, Jesus repaired the Divinity/humanity relationship with His obedience. He conquered death. 1 Corinthians 15: 54-55.