If God became man

[Servant19]

My apology for not totally understanding the question “If God became man, gave up His life for our salvation as a sacrifice, then did humanity kill God?”

I am having trouble understanding the “god” in the “if” question. Are you referring to some organized religion that belies that God became man? Or maybe --are you referring to an hypothetical god which would not make sense because of the principle of non-contradiction.

Most likely, I am confused because all religions do not have the same beliefs in the super-natural. On the other hand, Catholicism does not teach that “God became man” end of story. Catholicism includes the answer to how Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. Jesus assumed human nature. He did not absorb human nature.

Information source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 456-483. Reference to assume not absorb is paragraph 470.

Link to Catechism
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

Thankyou dear grannymh

Can you please clarify for me the difference between “assuming” and “absorbing”?

Has human nature ever been “absorbed” by any being according to Catholicism?

God bless you.

.

 

[grannymh]

Thankyou dear grannymh

Can you please clarify for me the difference between “assuming” and “absorbing”?

Has human nature ever been “absorbed” by any being according to Catholicism?

God bless you.

.

Absorb is the easier word to clarify. Think of drying yourself with a wet towel. The American Heritage College Dictionary, Fourth Edition: absorb is “1.To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices.” The Divine Jesus is pure spirit without material anatomical pores, described as "a minute opening in tissue; therefore, absorb is automatically ruled out.

For assume, from the above dictionary: 1. To take upon oneself: assume responsibility. 4. To put on: don.

Google gave me:
3. the disease may assume epidemic proportions
acquire, take on, come to have
4.they are to assume more responsibility
accept, shoulder, bear, undertake, take on/up, manage, handle, deal with
oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english-thesaurus/assume

and this definition from thefreedictionary.com/assume
**3. ****a. **To take on (an appearance, role, or form, for example); adopt: “The god assumes a human form” (John Ruskin).

Google supplied this interesting thought about human nature. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature

Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling and acting— which humans tend to have naturally, independently of the influence of culture.

What I am finding from the above is that assume sounds somewhat close to absorb; yet, it is completely different from a towel accepting water and becoming totally wet. “Totally” is the operative word.

Obviously, I checked the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *
If you have an hour or two, tackle paragraphs 456-478, including the cross-references in the margins. Or go to “In Brief” paragraphs 479-483.

This granny considers that the main point is that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity did not lose His divine nature. His divine nature did not change in any way. There is an unique, one of a kind, union of both the divine and human natures in the one Divine Person, Jesus Christ. His divine nature did not become wet.

Regarding the question –
“Has human nature ever been “absorbed” by any being according to Catholicism?”

Answer. I hope not. I have had enough Google for this year.

Technically, God is a supernatural transcendent pure spirit Divine Being. Jesus as True God did not absorb human nature. As for all those creatures in the first chapter of Genesis, including our first parents, their nature is complete as is. Thus, the answer according to Catholicism is that “human nature” has never been absorbed by any being. Humans do not need to additionally absorb what they already have at conception.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
Enjoy!
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[hasantas]

First. I appreciated your post 210. It was a good learning opportunity. Interesting to me were the points which were similar to Catholic teaching in some manner.

Regarding that Jesus is the Son of God – that was one of the first battles in the early Catholic Church. An intelligent man named Arius taught that Jesus was not of the same divine substance as God. Therefore, Jesus was the highest created being. To me that sounds like He was the Son of God but not Himself God. Then there was the battle over the Holy Spirit in chapter 14, Gospel of John. My high school teacher loved to teach about the early Church Councils which eventually put Divine Revelation into written form. Me, the more those early Catholics yelled at each other …it definitely was not boring.

When the dust settled, the Catholic teaching is that there are three Divine Persons in one Nature. This is the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity. And it is not going to change no matter how many people interpret Sacred Scripture. The way I keep Jesus Christ straight is that I say that God is three Persons in one Nature and Jesus Christ is one Person with two Natures.

Now that you know that I am not going to change my acceptance that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, I will quickly say that because Jesus is God, He could forgive sins.

Regarding the question – “And also if Jesus could forgive sins then why did Jesus allow God to make Him a sacrifice?”

That, my friend, is another ball game. The short version is that the human Adam shattered the relationship which his Divine Creator had given him. Adam simply did not have what it takes to repair a divine relationship. John 3: 16-17. Therefore, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity assumed, not absorbed, human nature. Being both True Man and True God, Jesus repaired the Divinity/humanity relationship with His obedience. He conquered death. 1 Corinthians 15: 54-55.

You regard the Church as higher than the Scripture. When it is asked why the Church is higher then it is answered in that way: because it is written in Scripture! Don’t you see the conflict?

God is creator of all humanbeing. If most of humanbeing do not go through way of His Church so is God so weak or unjust? I mean Christians claim that the Holy Spirit lead the Church but most of people are not Christian. Do God cannot guide people or is God so unjust and ignore most of people?

Holy Spirit to lead the Church is a mystery as others doctrines of Church are based on mysteries. But do faith should not be established on the solid foundations? A way through mysteries may be very funny, thrilling, charming but also it should be through and respect logic, facts and evidences.

Adam did not shattered any relationship between divine and mortal but He just made a mistake. Didn’t God know that Adam will make that mistake? Why did God create the universe and world before Adam made that mistake? That was our destiny which was decided by God.

If human nature could not repair that relationship then why did God assume a human nature?

Is God so unfair to charge and blame human because of a crime which he did not commit? If my father was a killer so must I pay his crime and go behind bars?

If that was Adam fault so why do God or other people have to pay?

etc, tec, etc

There are very conflicts in Church doctrines and it will be allwasy debated as it was used to be.

 

[DCNBILL]

You regard the Church as higher than the Scripture. When it is asked why the Church is higher then it is answered in that way: because it is written in Scripture! Don’t you see the conflict?

No because the Scripture came out of the Church, so obviously it is only the Church that can interpret its own Scripture.

God is creator of all humanbeing. If most of humanbeing do not go through way of His Church so is God so weak or unjust? I mean Christians claim that the Holy Spirit lead the Church but most of people are not Christian. Do God cannot guide people or is God so unjust and ignore most of people?

God chooses those He would have in His Church, some say no, He may be choosing you and that is why you are here seeking answers.

Holy Spirit to lead the Church is a mystery as others doctrines of Church are based on mysteries. But do faith should not be established on the solid foundations? A way through mysteries may be very funny, thrilling, charming but also it should be through and respect logic, facts and evidences.

The foundation of Christ, the Son of God starting the faith community that developed into His Church on the solid rock of Peter and the Popes that followed is a pretty good foundation. Hey we are still here.

Adam did not shattered any relationship between divine and mortal but He just made a mistake. Didn’t God know that Adam will make that mistake? Why did God create the universe and world before Adam made that mistake? That was our destiny which was decided by God.

One does not get banished from paradise for “making a mistake” Adam and Eve sinned the sin of pride, wanting to be like God.

If human nature could not repair that relationship then why did God assume a human nature?

To heal that break, to demonstrate to us how to live a life of humble giving of ones self for the other, to start a faith community that will establish His Church, and to give up His life for the salvation of our souls. He did a pretty good job as well.

Is God so unfair to charge and blame human because of a crime which he did not commit? If my father was a killer so must I pay his crime and go behind bars?

All humans sin, if you do not you are a unique person, we all need redemption for the times that we have sinned against our almighty God, we are all guilty.

If that was Adam fault so why do God or other people have to pay?

Because we are all sinners. Jesus died for all of our sins, yours and mine as well.

There are very conflicts in Church doctrines and it will be allwasy debated as it was used to be.

Maybe from the outside of the Church but within it is warm and cozy, the church is not however a home to saints but a hospital for sinners.

Catholicism is not an easy faith to live but it is a great faith to die in.

 

[adrift]

You regard the Church as higher than the Scripture. When it is asked why the Church is higher then it is answered in that way: because it is written in Scripture! Don’t you see the conflict?

I see a straw man argument. Certainly the post you are answering doesn’t say this. I am puzzled at what you mean by higher? We could be talking about different things unless you define and make clear what is higher? As It has already been stated Scripture came out of the Church not the Church out of Scripture. They go hand in hand as they both teach the same thing.

God is creator of all humanbeing. If most of humanbeing do not go through way of His Church so is God so weak or unjust? I mean Christians claim that the Holy Spirit lead the Church but most of people are not Christian. Do God cannot guide people or is God so unjust and ignore most of people?

I do not understand how you can conclude that God is week because He has choosen the way to Him is through His Church. How people are connected to His Church is sometimes imperfect. We may not understand it but God does. God doesn’t force people to obey Him. Just like the angels we are free to reject Him. You have heard of free will?

Holy Spirit to lead the Church is a mystery as others doctrines of Church are based on mysteries. But do faith should not be established on the solid foundations? A way through mysteries may be very funny, thrilling, charming but also it should be through and respect logic, facts and evidences.

You are alluding I believe that Our Church is not based on logic, facts, and evidence. However, that can be said of all faiths because the bottom line is faith which by definition cannot be proven. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be faith. You are mistaken in your premise anyway. It is as I have stated a straw man.

Adam did not shattered any relationship between divine and mortal but He just made a mistake. Didn’t God know that Adam will make that mistake? Why did God create the universe and world before Adam made that mistake? That was our destiny which was decided by God.

:banghead: :juggle:
I did address this before at quite lengths. It was free will why Adam sinned. His sin was disobedience which in the previous post I pointed out.

If human nature could not repair that relationship then why did God assume a human nature?

How can a mere human make up for a sin against God? Nope:nope: A sin against the Divine has to be remedied by the Divine.

Is God so unfair to charge and blame human because of a crime which he did not commit? If my father was a killer so must I pay his crime and go behind bars?

If that was Adam fault so why do God or other people have to pay?

etc, tec, etc

There are very conflicts in Church doctrines and it will be allwasy debated as it was used to be.

This is human reasoning. Who are you to judge God as being fair or unfair? It is a matter of inheritance. I have family that lost a fortune. Am I to go to the people it was lost to and demand it because I shouldn’t suffer for the families lost?
We do not inherit from Adam what God gave him because he disobeyed. We suffer for that lost of the inheritance which among others things was lost of innocence and the grace of God. I have no idea what you mean by conflicts. The Church teaches the truth and there are those who are obstinate and full of pride just like Adam who say they know better than God.

 

[grannymh]

You regard the Church as higher than the Scripture. When it is asked why the Church is higher then it is answered in that way: because it is written in Scripture! Don’t you see the conflict?

When we use words like “regard the Church as higher than the Scripture,” not only will there be a natural conflict, there is stupid reasoning.

What is difficult for most people, including Catholics, is learning the precise vocabulary of Catholic teachings.

Instead of “higher than the Scripture,” – these are Catholic words, “the Church interprets and preserves Divine Revelation within Sacred Scripture.” The evidence, solid foundation, for this is found in the prophecy described in chapter 14, Gospel of John.

The following quotations are from this link.
usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

John 14: 15-18

15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.j 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate* to be with you always,k 17the Spirit of truth,* which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.l 18I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.*

John 14: 25-26
25“I have told you this while I am with you. 26The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you.r Acts 15: 1-35 is known as the Council of Jerusalem. It is the first “official” meeting, guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, with the purpose of determining Divine Revelation. A list of the following Ecumenical Church Councils is in the Index of Citations, page 720, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
​

http://www.usccb.org/bible/john/14#51014026-rusccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

At the beginning of the Index of Citations, CCC page 689, is a list of Sacred Scripture verses used in the Catechism.

If you have questions about “Catholic” words etc., please ask.

 

[grannymh]

You regard the Church as higher than the Scripture. When it is asked why the Church is higher then it is answered in that way: because it is written in Scripture! Don’t you see the conflict?

When we use words like “regard the Church as higher than the Scripture,” not only will there be a natural conflict, there is stupid reasoning.

What is difficult for most people, including Catholics, is learning the precise vocabulary of Catholic teachings.

Instead of “higher than the Scripture,” – these are Catholic words, the Church interprets and preserves Divine Revelation within Sacred Scripture. The evidence, solid foundation, for this is found in the prophecy described in chapter 14, Gospel of John.

The following quotations are from this link.
usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm
John 14: 15-18

15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.j 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate* to be with you always,k 17 the Spirit of truth,* which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.l 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.*

John 14: 25-26

25“I have told you this while I am with you. 26 The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—He will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you.r

Acts 15: 1-35 is known as the Council of Jerusalem. It is the first “official” meeting, guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, with the purpose of determining Divine Revelation. A list of the following Ecumenical Church Councils is in the Index of Citations, page 720, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

At the beginning of the Index of Citations, CCC page 689, is a list of Holy Scripture verses used in the Catechism.

If you have questions about “Catholic” words etc., please ask.

My apology.
Due to some commitments, I cannot immediately reply to the rest of the interesting items in your post. 223.

 

[Servant19]

Absorb is the easier word to clarify. Think of drying yourself with a wet towel. The American Heritage College Dictionary, Fourth Edition: absorb is “1.To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices.” The Divine Jesus is pure spirit without material anatomical pores, described as "a minute opening in tissue; therefore, absorb is automatically ruled out.

For assume, from the above dictionary: 1. To take upon oneself: assume responsibility. 4. To put on: don.

Google gave me:
3. the disease may assume epidemic proportions
acquire, take on, come to have
4.they are to assume more responsibility
accept, shoulder, bear, undertake, take on/up, manage, handle, deal with
oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english-thesaurus/assume

and this definition from thefreedictionary.com/assume
**3. ****a. **To take on (an appearance, role, or form, for example); adopt: “The god assumes a human form” (John Ruskin).

Google supplied this interesting thought about human nature. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature

Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling and acting— which humans tend to have naturally, independently of the influence of culture.

What I am finding from the above is that assume sounds somewhat close to absorb; yet, it is completely different from a towel accepting water and becoming totally wet. “Totally” is the operative word.

Obviously, I checked the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *
If you have an hour or two, tackle paragraphs 456-478, including the cross-references in the margins. Or go to “In Brief” paragraphs 479-483.

This granny considers that the main point is that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity did not lose His divine nature. His divine nature did not change in any way. There is an unique, one of a kind, union of both the divine and human natures in the one Divine Person, Jesus Christ. His divine nature did not become wet.

Regarding the question –
“Has human nature ever been “absorbed” by any being according to Catholicism?”

Answer. I hope not. I have had enough Google for this year.

Technically, God is a supernatural transcendent pure spirit Divine Being. Jesus as True God did not absorb human nature. As for all those creatures in the first chapter of Genesis, including our first parents, their nature is complete as is. Thus, the answer according to Catholicism is that “human nature” has never been absorbed by any being. Humans do not need to additionally absorb what they already have at conception.

Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
Enjoy!
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Thakyou grannymh. My humble understanding is that this correlates with both Baha’i and Islamic Scripture about Jesus, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.

.

 

[grannymh]

God is creator of all humanbeing. If most of humanbeing do not go through way of His Church so is God so weak or unjust? I mean Christians claim that the Holy Spirit lead the Church but most of people are not Christian. Do God cannot guide people or is God so unjust and ignore most of people?

God is super-natural. The Catholic Church teaches that God loves all humans. Genesis 1: 26-27. Therefore, God offers His love to all humans in ways known to Himself. CCC 1260.

Adam did not shattered any relationship between divine and mortal but He just made a mistake. Didn’t God know that Adam will make that mistake? Why did God create the universe and world before Adam made that mistake? That was our destiny which was decided by God.

This is the difference between different Faiths. Catholics simply believe in the seriousness of the original relationship between God and Adam.

If human nature could not repair that relationship then why did God assume a human nature?

John 3: 16-17

Is God so unfair to charge and blame human because of a crime which he did not commit? If my father was a killer so must I pay his crime and go behind bars?

May I respectfully point out that your father is not God.

If that was Adam fault so why do God or other people have to pay?

etc, tec, etc

There is a difference between etc. etc. Faiths and the Catholic Church.

There are very conflicts in Church doctrines and it will be allwasy debated as it was used to be.

There will always be conflicts and there will always be debates. I continue to choose the Catholic Church as my religion because I accept the truth that the Holy Spirit guides it.

 

[hasantas]

=DCNBILL;13135464]No because the Scripture came out of the Church, so obviously it is only the Church that can interpret its own Scripture.

Do you mean the Church wrote scripture by herself? If that is so then that is very serious problem. And words of Gospel are not the words which came out through Jesus mouth any more!

Gospels were written by saints and later the Church rewrote Gospels according to their comprehend? That make Gospels unreliable.

Or did Church change Gospels according to their interpretations? That is not use.

Or the Church saved Gospels in anyway so only Church could interpret? If Gospels were written coherent to Jesus life then every body has a right to interpret.

But Church insist on some doctrines which were ways of interpretation of Gospels either right or wrong. Then somebody else could interpret Gospels in different ways. And Muslims could see most wide way in interpretation coherent to Qur’an. The interpretations of Church are being debated seriously even by some Christians too. But Church has a great power to appease and control it.

One does not get banished from paradise for “making a mistake” Adam and Eve sinned the sin of pride, wanting to be like God.

Satan tempted them and said that God forbid that tree’s fruit for you to not be eternal. Adam thought that if they would eat fruit so they would be deathless in paradise. They did eat but they did not be eternal but they disobeyed God. So they were taken out of garden. Adam was a human so He might wish to continue in paradise but that was not sin of pride.

To heal that break, to demonstrate to us how to live a life of humble giving of ones self for the other, to start a faith community that will establish His Church, and to give up His life for the salvation of our souls. He did a pretty good job as well.

My question is technically. If the human nature could not do that work so why God assumed human nature which was not use?

All humans sin, if you do not you are a unique person, we all need redemption for the times that we have sinned against our almighty God, we are all guilty.

We sin because of our weak disposition. I sin very much and I always forswear for my sins and I hope God will forgive my sins. But we are not sinful because of Adam sinned! Adam sinned because Adam had a weak disposition so Satan could deceive Him. And we inherited that weak disposition from Adam so Satan can tempt us and we commit sins but we do not inherit Adam’s sin.

Because we are all sinners. Jesus died for all of our sins, yours and mine as well.

Yes we are all sinners. So we should repent for our sins and we should hope God will forgive us. God want us to repent for sins. And Jesus may ask God to forgive us. But God did not kill Himself(according to Catholic) to forgive us!

Catholicism is not an easy faith to live but it is a great faith to die in.

Then make it easy. Say God is one with all atributes. And God is eternal and never change or become man. So it will be more great faith to die in.

 

[DCNBILL]

Do you mean the Church wrote scripture by herself? If that is so then that is very serious problem. And words of Gospel are not the words which came out through Jesus mouth any more!

The Holy Scriptures of the New Testament were written after the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and His Ascension into heaven. Note that the Church is a divine institution therefore Sacred Scripture was written by mortal men with the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. I think that this was stated to you all ready.

But Church insist on some doctrines which were ways of interpretation of Gospels either right or wrong. Then somebody else could interpret Gospels in different ways.

The Church is the only interpreter of Sacred Scripture.

My question is technically. If the human nature could not do that work so why God assumed human nature which was not use?

Only God, through the Incarnation, could atone for the sins of all of humanity against God.

We sin because of our weak disposition. I sin very much and I always forswear for my sins and I hope God will forgive my sins. But we are not sinful because of Adam sinned! Adam sinned because Adam had a weak disposition so Satan could deceive Him. And we inherited that weak disposition from Adam so Satan can tempt us and we commit sins but we do not inherit Adam’s sin.

Do you understand that Adam was a prototype of all of humanity, yes we are all sinners but Adam and Eve were the first sinners in the long line of sinners to come.

Yes we are all sinners. So we should repent for our sins and we should hope God will forgive us. God want us to repent for sins. And Jesus may ask God to forgive us. But God did not kill Himself(according to Catholic) to forgive us!

Catholics do not believe God killed Himself, that is a silly notion.

Catholics believed men killed God in the person of Jesus the Christ true God and true man.

Then make it easy. Say God is one with all atributes. And God is eternal and never change or become man. So it will be more great faith to die in.

How can we be saved if God did not become man and die for our sins? Do you believe that a man could accomplish this? God does not do things the easy way. Yes he could have come down from Heaven, wagged his finger and said your are all saved and we would be saved.

God wanted to create a community of believers that would spread the message of the Gospel to all humanity throughout the ages, so He came to Earth as a man, He demonstrated the way we should live (giving ourselves for one another) and the way we should die (sacrificing ourselves for one another). He started His community of believers (His Church) and ensured that it would remain faithful by giving us the advocate (God the Holy Spirit.)

 

[clem456]

Then make it easy. Say God is one with all atributes. And God is eternal and never change or become man. So it will be more great faith to die in.

You are dodging this question:
On who’s authority do you claim to know what God can or cannot do?
You put yourself on the same level as God when you say he cannot take on human flesh. You pretend to know his mind and his capabilities.

I think it’s a dangerous thing when a person pretends to know what God is capable of.

 

[grannymh]

Do you mean the Church wrote scripture by herself? If that is so then that is very serious problem. And words of Gospel are not the words which came out through Jesus mouth any more!

Gospels were written by saints and later the Church rewrote Gospels according to their comprehend? That make Gospels unreliable.

Or did Church change Gospels according to their interpretations? That is not use.

Or the Church saved Gospels in anyway so only Church could interpret? If Gospels were written coherent to Jesus life then every body has a right to interpret.

Pardon me.

It sounds like a person has told you some lies about the Catholic Church. In my humble opinion, you do not know all the truth about the Catholic Church.

Would you like to learn about the Catholic Church? Would you like to learn the truth about the Catholic Church?

You said that you are a teacher. You know how important it is for you to understand the meaning of your student’s words. And you know how important it is for your student to know the meaning of your words. It would help me give you the truth if I knew the meaning of what you are telling me.

For example. You used these words in your post. “and later the Church rewrote Gospels according to their comprehend? That make Gospels unreliable.”

When you say “and later” do you mean within a few hundred years or do you mean that recently members of the Church taught Sacred Scripture as they personally understood it. When you use the word Church, do you mean the visible organization with offices in the Vatican? Or do you mean individuals who say they are members? Does the meaning of Church include who founded it?

What does the word interpret mean to you? How would you describe the action of interpreting?

Usually lies about the Catholic Church omit important information. When this happens to a student, the student will keep the wrong meaning.

Even truth like the thread’s title “If God became man …” may omit the important information about man’s nature. It may omit the important information about the beginning history of man. It may the original relationship between the Creator and His creature. When we find the truth of “If God became man …” then it is very important that we learn about all its meanings.

It is the purpose of the Catholic Church to answer these questions about both God and man – who? how? what? when? where? and why?

I sincerely respect teachers. I am not a teacher. I am hoping that you can find a way of getting to the full complete meanings about the Catholic Church. We need to get rid of the lies you may have heard.

 

[adrift]

DCNBILL
clem456
grannymh

kudos for such excellent answers.
to hasantas

We sin because of our weak disposition. I sin very much and I always forswear for my sins and I hope God will forgive my sins. But we are not sinful because of Adam sinned! Adam sinned because Adam had a weak disposition so Satan could deceive Him. And we inherited that weak disposition from Adam so Satan can tempt us and we commit sins but we do not inherit Adam’s sin.

So Adam had a weak disposition. Why?
We inherited a weak disposition? Didn’t you say this was unfair?
What you state seems contradictory
You state
We are not sinful because of Adam
We inherited the weak disposition because of Adam which is what is stated in the Catechism

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

 

[hasantas]

DCNBILL;13137340]The Holy Scriptures of the New Testament were written after the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and His Ascension into heaven. Note that the Church is a divine institution therefore Sacred Scripture was written by mortal men with the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit. I think that this was stated to you all ready.

Gospels start with Jesus and finish with Jesus as topics and Gospels include Jesus’s words. There are four Gospels so which one was inspired by Holy Spirit? Why did not Holy Spirit revealed only to one man so there would not be so conflicts and debates? Why there are only issues about Jesus and could not Holy Spirit reveal some things new? There are differences between Gospels so could not Holy Spirit guide men to write one?

Saints wrote what they could remember and hold from Jesus and there are not indications which demonstrate that they were inspired by Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit came and revealed to Muhammad and inspired Him all the facts and trues and that is the exact what Jesus had pointed out.

The Church is the only interpreter of Sacred Scripture.

So should we believe in only Church either is true and false? But Church is consisted of men and men could make mistake very easily. There are no obvious evidences if Holy Spirit guide men in Church. That men made very mistakes in history!

Only God, through the Incarnation, could atone for the sins of all of humanity against God.

Repentance of sins is enough for God to forgive. If human did some wrongs so human should heal that in anyway. The sin or error of human is a kind of act which human can do and it is not a divine act which human cannot do. So there is no a divine error which should be corrected by divine nature. The human nature did wrong so human nature will correct.

Do you understand that Adam was a prototype of all of humanity, yes we are all sinners but Adam and Eve were the first sinners in the long line of sinners to come.

Adam was a prophet and God forgave Him for sake of His repentance. If God forgave Adam so there is no a sin which should be inherited.

Catholics do not believe God killed Himself, that is a silly notion.

Catholics believed men killed God in the person of Jesus the Christ true God and true man.

If God made the Son God sacrificed so God killed Himself. Yes that is a silly notion!

How can we be saved if God did not become man and die for our sins? Do you believe that a man could accomplish this? God does not do things the easy way. Yes he could have come down from Heaven, wagged his finger and said your are all saved and we would be saved.

God wanted to create a community of believers that would spread the message of the Gospel to all humanity throughout the ages, so He came to Earth as a man, He demonstrated the way we should live (giving ourselves for one another) and the way we should die (sacrificing ourselves for one another). He started His community of believers (His Church) and ensured that it would remain faithful by giving us the advocate (God the Holy Spirit.)

As I meant there is no a divine sin which man could not correct. All human except prophets commit sins so should God sacrifice Himself because of our wrongs? No. But we should pay because we commit. The way is the repentance. Everyone can do that and repent for sins direct to God. Even there is no require to go Church for sins but everyone can ask from God for forgiving directly from God. Church is a holy place so when someone go Church so he should repent for sins directly from god but he should not have to intervene a priest.

 

[adrift]

Adam was a prophet and God forgave Him for sake of His repentance. If God forgave Adam so there is no a sin which should be inherited…All human except prophets commit sins

You seem to contradict yourself here. It is of no importance because you are wrong. Adam sinned where does it say that God forgave him? Even so Adam could not make up for his sin being human it was not in his power to atone for His sin.
Definition of prophet

The biblical term “nabi” means one who spoke, acted, or wrote under the extraordinary influence of god to make known the divine counsels and will. Yet commonly associated with this primary function to proclaim the word of God, a prophet also prophesied by foretelling future events. His role, then, was to both proclaim and to make the proclamation credible.

The first mention of a prophet is in Genesis 20:7

7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

You may believe that Adam fits this definition I do not. Adam was not a prophet

As I meant there is no a divine sin which man could not correct. All human except prophets commit sins so should God sacrifice Himself because of our wrongs? No. But we should pay because we commit. The way is the repentance. Everyone can do that and repent for sins direct to God. Even there is no require to go Church for sins but everyone can ask from God for forgiving directly from God. Church is a holy place so when someone go Church so he should repent for sins directly from god but he should not
have to intervene a priest.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, 21 who takes away the sin of the world
John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” 1 Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to** save sinners**; of whom I am chief.”
Mark 2:17, “When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Matthew 20:28, “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
1 John 4:10, “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

 

[hasantas]

You are dodging this question:
On who’s authority do you claim to know what God can or cannot do?
You put yourself on the same level as God when you say he cannot take on human flesh. You pretend to know his mind and his capabilities.

I think it’s a dangerous thing when a person pretends to know what God is capable of.

I take my authority from Qur’an and other scriptures. God had informed attributes of Himself very well in Qur’an. There is no obvious evidences for doctrines in Bible. I do not say God cannot do but God do not such thing which conflict with His eternal and divine attributes. Otherwise I am nothing and naught and have no power and authority. .

 

[hasantas]

Pardon me.

It sounds like a person has told you some lies about the Catholic Church. In my humble opinion, you do not know all the truth about the Catholic Church.

Would you like to learn about the Catholic Church? Would you like to learn the truth about the Catholic Church?

You said that you are a teacher. You know how important it is for you to understand the meaning of your student’s words. And you know how important it is for your student to know the meaning of your words. It would help me give you the truth if I knew the meaning of what you are telling me.

For example. You used these words in your post. “and later the Church rewrote Gospels according to their comprehend? That make Gospels unreliable.”

When you say “and later” do you mean within a few hundred years or do you mean that recently members of the Church taught Sacred Scripture as they personally understood it. When you use the word Church, do you mean the visible organization with offices in the Vatican? Or do you mean individuals who say they are members? Does the meaning of Church include who founded it?

What does the word interpret mean to you? How would you describe the action of interpreting?

Usually lies about the Catholic Church omit important information. When this happens to a student, the student will keep the wrong meaning.

Even truth like the thread’s title “If God became man …” may omit the important information about man’s nature. It may omit the important information about the beginning history of man. It may the original relationship between the Creator and His creature. When we find the truth of “If God became man …” then it is very important that we learn about all its meanings.

It is the purpose of the Catholic Church to answer these questions about both God and man – who? how? what? when? where? and why?

I sincerely respect teachers. I am not a teacher. I am hoping that you can find a way of getting to the full complete meanings about the Catholic Church. We need to get rid of the lies you may have heard.

It is said that merely Church could interpret Gospels truely and I want to learn why? For instance every one can interpret Qur’an because Qur’an is for all humanbeing. So the Bible should be related to all believers. It is true that Church has most right to interpret Bible because Church was established by disciples of Jesus and disciples knew more than anybody about Jesus. But the doctrines were emerged after disciples and later for some centuries. That suggest that somebody might misinterpreted Gospels. Perhaps that misinterpretation was not by wicked will but by an excessive will and thought.

 

[hasantas]

=adrift;13137684]:

So Adam had a weak disposition. Why?
We inherited a weak disposition? Didn’t you say this was unfair?
What you state seems contradictory

God created human in requirement and weakness. Humanbeing is absolutely in weakness and need. God need nothing and is powerful and eternal. God has eternal attributes and all these attributes wish to become manifest. For instance human need food and God create foods. Human get ill and God heal. Human commit sin and God forgive sins. That is the reason of weak disposition shortly.

God make and create human in weak disposition and that is not unfair. Because with weak disposition human could find the creator. Human want and ask everything from God because human has nothing. If God did not point the way to salvation then it maybe unfair. But God indicate the repentance for salvation.

You state
We are not sinful because of Adam
We inherited the weak disposition because of Adam which is what is stated in the Catechism

Catechism teach that human inherited sin of Adam which is not true. And we have not inherited weak disposition because of Adam but we inherited weak disposition from Adam because God had created Adam in weak disposition.

 

[adrift]

God created human in requirement and weakness. Humanbeing is absolutely in weakness and need. God need nothing and is powerful and eternal. God has eternal attributes and all these attributes wish to become manifest. For instance human need food and God create foods. Human get ill and God heal. Human commit sin and God forgive sins. That is the reason of weak disposition shortly.God make and create human in weak disposition and that is not unfair. Because with weak disposition human could find the creator. Human want and ask everything from God because human has nothing. If God did not point the way to salvation then it maybe unfair. But God indicate the repentance for salvation.

Genesis 1:31

God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed - the sixth day.

God made Adam perfect without sin and in His grace. When Adam sinned he lost this perfection and his will became week.

]Catechism teach that human inherited sin of Adam which is not true. And we have not inherited weak disposition because of Adam but we inherited weak disposition from Adam because God had created Adam in weak disposition.

In your opinion, it is not true. It God had made Adam weak he would not have been perfect. But God said that He looked at everything He made and it was good. It would not be good if not perfect.