If God is not The Trinity, when what did He mean...

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Valke2 said:
2nd Gen.
The fact that the verse immedietly following the plural refers to God in the singular, has actually been used as an argument against Trinity being found here. God may have said “us” to the angles, much as a King will include others in his decision out of politeness, but the action was all God without any third party involvement.
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2ndGen said:
Not what “I say”, but what the Scriptures that I posted said. 🙂
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Nothing in the Bible says angels weren’t there with God as Adam was created. Much as a teacher I might say “let’s find the answer to 2 + 2” with “us” meaning the students (angels) and I (God), but only I (God) am the one working it out on the chalkboard.

When do you believe angels were created, after man?
 
2ndGen said:
Valke2;3214886 said:
2nd Gen.

Read the text: God refers to Himself as “Us”, the scripture refers to God as “Him”.

I like to stick with what’s written
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than to wonder about what’s “not” there. I use that tactic for “Sola Scripturians”.

🙂

Remember, taking the B-C section of the dictionary doesn’t make the A section “not” true in relation to the rest of it.

😃

no idea what your dictionary metaphor means here. If you are going to services today, I’d be interested in hearing what your priest has to say on this. Or when you get the chance to discuss it with him. I ask because I skimmed the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Trinity and while it gives many scriptual supports for Trinity (which I would disagree with but that’s for another thread), it does not quote the verse you are referring to. Below is a portion of the article:

The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many of them not merely believed that the Prophets had testified of it, they held that it had been made known even to the Patriarchs. They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; for reasons to be mentioned below (III. B.) they considered it evident that God the Father could not have thus manifested Himself (cf. Justin, “Dial.”, 60; Irenaeus, “Adv. haer.”, IV, xx, 7-11; Tertullian, “Adv. Prax.”, 15-16; Theophilus, “Ad Autol.”, ii, 22; Novat., “De Trin.”, 18, 25, etc.). They held that, when the inspired writers speak of “the Spirit of the Lord”, the reference was to the Third Person of the Trinity; and one or two (Irenaeus, “Adv. haer.”, II, xxx, 9; Theophilus, “Ad. Aut.”, II, 15; Hippolytus, “Con. Noet.”, 10) interpret the hypostatic Wisdom of the Sapiential books, not, with St. Paul, of the Son (Hebrews 1:3; cf. Wisdom 7:25-26), but of the Holy Spirit. But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant. (Cf. Gregory Nazianzen, “Or. theol.”, v, 26; Epiphanius, “Ancor.” 73, “Haer.”, 74; Basil, “Adv. Eunom.”, II, 22; Cyril of Alexandria, “In Joan.”, xii, 20.)
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Valke2 said:
Not taking the role as in becoming the pagan council. But using the language as a means of stating that there is no pagan council, there is only God. The commentary that I have read suggest that it used the language of the pagan council to show that God was responsible for creation, not a council. Just as it has been suggested that one of the reasons for the creation story itself is to establish God’s supremecy over nature. To dispell the belief that there is a sun god, moon god, etc.
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ok this explanation helped thank you. But what about giving a Biblical interpretation based on The Father creating everything through His Word and Spirit?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Angels don’t do anything without God’s power, I said that many posts ago. Angels creating new forms of life from basic elements God created from the start, with God’s permission, doesn’t make them creators of the universe. Anymore that I am creator of the universe if I have sex with someone and a baby results.
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i deduct from this explanation that they are sub-creators. What basic elements did God create for humans and then angels to achieve the task?
 
inJESUS said:
yet God is saying Let US ( you and me) create Man. What did the angels create in humans?

how does this apply to creating humans?

how will they help if God says “be” and it is because its easy for Him.

how exactly? breath life in humans?
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I don’t know the exact process God used to create a man from dirt or what role angels may have played. Either you believe they existed before man or not, if before, then likely they were part of the “us” God was talking about, either as observers or as servants in the creation process. I’m not sure anyone can honestly say otherwise.
 
“With thee is wisdom, who knows thy works and was present when thou didst make the world” (Wisdom 9:9)

O God of my fathers and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things by thy word, and by thy wisdom hast formed man. . . .” (Wisdom 9:1-2).

“Who has learned thy counsel, unless thou hast given wisdom and sent thy **holy Spirit **from on high?” Wisdom 9:17

“By the **word **of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host by the **breath of his mouth.” **Psalm 33

“The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” (Job 33:4)

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." (Psalm 104:30)

The Word/Wisdom and Holy Spirit of the Father created everything…So when God says Let US, He is not talking to creatures but to Creators : Word/Wisdom and Holy Spirit.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
I don’t know the exact process God used to create a man from dirt

“The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being (soul).” (Gen. 2:7) no mention of any help or co-creators.
or what role angels may have played.
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inJESUS said:
The Word/Wisdom and Holy Spirit of the Father created everything…So when God says Let US, He is not talking to creatures but to Creators : Word/Wisdom and Holy Spirit.
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I know they are like two other deities to you, but to me it’s like if I yelled out something in a canyon and heard an echo. Me (God), my shout (Holy Spirit), my words (God’s Word), Echo (Creation).

God’s Word is just whatever God says to create things. And maybe it includes intermediate commands to angels who fulfill the primary command. Like maybe God could have just told Mary Himself about the coming birth of Jesus, but He sent an angel to tell Mary God’s words. So God told Gabriel then Gabriel passed it onto Mary. Maybe same with commands for creation. God tells angels then angels create.
 
inJESUS said:
Let US **create **does not apply to observers and servants but to creators…
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If you say angels were created after Adam, and weren’t there when he was created, that’s fine, then we just disagree. Not much more to say about it except tit-tat.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
If you say angels were created after Adam, and weren’t there when he was created, that’s fine, then we just disagree. Not much more to say about it except tit-tat.
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the timeline of the angels’ existence is irrelevant. Even if they existed before Adam, God was not adressing them as partners in creation . When He says Let US create, He is not adressing creatures who had nothing to do with creating us because the Bible is clear that Only the Father, His Word and His Spirit created man.
 
inJESUS said:
the timeline of the angels’ existence is irrelevant. Even if they existed before Adam, God was not adressing them as partners in creation . When He says Let US create, He is not adressing creatures who had nothing to do with creating us because the Bible is clear that Only the Father, His Word and His Spirit created man.
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So you are saying that when Gabriel reported the good news to Mary, Gabriel was not carrying God’s Word?
 
inJESUS said:
what does Gabriel have to do with creating humans? telling the good news to Mary is creating Jesus?
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If God’s Word created things, or told of things, or made things happen, could it have gone through angels to do it?

Do you believe the Bible is God’s Word?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
If God’s Word created things, or told of things, or made things happen, could it have gone through angels to do it?

God’s Word/Wisdom is God. God’s Word exists with God eternally as His essence, before creation. Angels carrying God’s Word means teaching what they are taught **by **God’s Word…it does not make them creators.

there is huge difference between teaching what God says, hence carrying God’s word to people, and being the Word, the Wisdom of God,the Essence of God, the Creator.
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inJESUS said:
God’s Word/Wisdom is God. God’s Word exists with God eternally as His essence, before creation. Angels carrying God’s Word means teaching what they are taught **by **God’s Word…it does not make them creators.

there is huge difference between teaching what God says, hence carrying God’s word to people, and being the Word, the Wisdom of God,the Essence of God, the Creator.
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Ok, well, do you believe the Bible is God’s Word or not?
 
inJESUS said:
yes. The Bible is what God revealed to humans through prophets.
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If the Bible is God’s Word then God’s Word is just what God says through prophets. Like Jesus.

Then the prophets become God’s Word to the people. Like Jesus.
 
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