If God is not The Trinity, when what did He mean...

[inJESUS]

If the Bible is God’s Word then God’s Word is just what God says through prophets. Like Jesus.

Then the prophets become God’s Word to the people. Like Jesus.

God’s Word/Wisdom is God. God’s Word exists with God eternally as His essence, before creation. **Angels/books **carrying God’s Word means teaching what they are taught by God’s Word…it does not make them creators.

there is huge difference between teaching what God says, hence carrying God’s word to people, and being the Word, the Wisdom of God,the Essence of God, the Creator.

If Mosesor any prophet is a word from God, it does not make him the creator of this universe. Jesus is.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

God’s Word/Wisdom is God. God’s Word exists with God eternally as His essence, before creation. **Angels/books **carrying God’s Word means teaching what they are taught by God’s Word…it does not make them creators.

there is huge difference between teaching what God says, hence carrying God’s word to people, and being the Word, the Wisdom of God,the Essence of God, the Creator.

If Mosesor any prophet is a word from God, it does not make him the creator of this universe. Jesus is.

If the Bible is God’s Word does that make the Bible the Creator?

 

[inJESUS]

If the Bible is God’s Word does that make the Bible the Creator?

surely not, if you understood what i wrote.

the Bible teaches God’s Word, that’s why it is called the Word of God.

But you will say " what was Jesus doing if not teaching God’s word"? but as usual, you’ll be missing that Jesus IS the Word that we read about in the Bible.

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." (John 5:39, 40)

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3214907:

no idea what your dictionary metaphor means here. If you are going to services today, I’d be interested in hearing what your priest has to say on this. Or when you get the chance to discuss it with him. I ask because I skimmed the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Trinity and while it gives many scriptual supports for Trinity (which I would disagree with but that’s for another thread), it does not quote the verse you are referring to. Below is a portion of the article:

The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many of them not merely believed that the Prophets had testified of it, they held that it had been made known even to the Patriarchs. They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; for reasons to be mentioned below (III. B.) they considered it evident that God the Father could not have thus manifested Himself (cf. Justin, “Dial.”, 60; Irenaeus, “Adv. haer.”, IV, xx, 7-11; Tertullian, “Adv. Prax.”, 15-16; Theophilus, “Ad Autol.”, ii, 22; Novat., “De Trin.”, 18, 25, etc.). They held that, when the inspired writers speak of “the Spirit of the Lord”, the reference was to the Third Person of the Trinity; and one or two (Irenaeus, “Adv. haer.”, II, xxx, 9; Theophilus, “Ad. Aut.”, II, 15; Hippolytus, “Con. Noet.”, 10) interpret the hypostatic Wisdom of the Sapiential books, not, with St. Paul, of the Son (Hebrews 1:3; cf. Wisdom 7:25-26), but of the Holy Spirit. But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant. (Cf. Gregory Nazianzen, “Or. theol.”, v, 26; Epiphanius, “Ancor.” 73, “Haer.”, 74; Basil, “Adv. Eunom.”, II, 22; Cyril of Alexandria, “In Joan.”, xii, 20.)

Several Priests, 3 Monsignors, pastors and religious leaders of other religions have told me that I have a charism for reading scripture and being able to see things not seen by common man.

Besides that, too much “scholarly” reliance is not neccesary for matters of spiritual discernment.

And…instead of reading an encyclopedia, try The Holy Bible (use the crossrefernces):

26Then God said, “Let (AE)Us make (AF)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (AG)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27God created man (AH)in His own image, in the image of God He created him; (AI)male and female He created them.

Genesis 1:26 : Gen 3:22; 11:7
Genesis 1:26 : Gen 5:1; 9:6; 1 Cor 11:7; Eph 4:24; James 3:9
Genesis 1:26 : Ps 8:6-8
Genesis 1:27 : Gen 5:1; 1 Cor 11:7; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10
Genesis 1:27 : Matt 19:4; Mark 10:6

I’ll get my buddies proofs of The Trinity “in” Genesis from my devoutly Pentecostal brother when I reach him.

 

[2ndGen]

Nothing in the Bible says angels weren’t there with God as Adam was created. Much as a teacher I might say “let’s find the answer to 2 + 2” with “us” meaning the students (angels) and I (God), but only I (God) am the one working it out on the chalkboard.

When do you believe angels were created, after man?

Then what you’re saying is that the Scripture that angels helped God create man is non-existants (that’s “if” you are a bible literalist going by what’s there and what isn’t there)?

And would you answer my questions from a Post
that you seemed to have overlooked?

===============================================
Genesis supports Genesis on The Trinity:

Genesis 1:
26
Then God said,
“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky
and over the cattle and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27
God created man in His own image,
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Here, the scriptures tells us that God refers to Himself plurally, but the text refers to Him singularly. It literally states that God (singular) created man with no mention of any other being (angels, etc…) contributing to man’s creation.

So, if we are to believe that God was referring to angels when He said Us, then the rest of the text would be false in referring to God as the only individual to create man when it said “God” and not “God and angels” or “they” created man.

Where else is the plural form of God mentioned?

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said,
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us,
knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Has an angel ever been known to take of the tree of live?

Even the archangel Lucifer didn’t touch the tree.

Genesis 11:7
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language,
so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Now, when did angels have power to confuse man’s language?

Only God is known to do this.

Another mention of any God having anything to do with men’s languages is The Holy Spirit (coincidentally, a person of The Trinity) in The Upper Room in the Book of Acts.

And…

Exodus 4:11
The LORD said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth?
Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind?
Is it not I, the LORD?

Even when Gabriel spoke to Zachariah and he was silenced, Gabriel stated that he stood “in The Lord’s presence”.

This places him “outside” of God in that he was in front of God, therefore couldn’t be included as “part of” God and God Himself was there with Zachriah. It was God who silenced Zachariah.

Where was there an angel mentioned when Zachariah was unsilenced? No where.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Then what you’re saying is that the Scripture that angels helped God create man is non-existants (that’s “if” you are a bible literalist going by what’s there and what isn’t there)?

Depends on who you think “US” is and whether or not they were just observing or actually gathering dirt or something to help.

And would you answer my questions from a Post
that you seemed to have overlooked?

===============================================
Genesis supports Genesis on The Trinity:

Genesis 1:
26
Then God said,
“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky
and over the cattle and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27
God created man in His own image,
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Here, the scriptures tells us that God refers to Himself plurally, but the text refers to Him singularly. It literally states that God (singular) created man with no mention of any other being (angels, etc…) contributing to man’s creation.

So, if we are to believe that God was referring to angels when He said Us, then the rest of the text would be false in referring to God as the only individual to create man when it said “God” and not “God and angels” or “they” created man.

If I said to my wife, “Let’s get this post out to 2ndGen” and she typed as I dictated, would it be nitpicking to say I was a liar if I then said “This is my post to 2ndGen”?

Where else is the plural form of God mentioned?

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said,
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us,
knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

Has an angel ever been known to take of the tree of live?

Even the archangel Lucifer didn’t touch the tree.

Why would God need to eat it, He created it? God was referring to Adam’s nature of knowing good and evil, not about eating from the tree as a god.

Genesis 11:7
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language,
so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Now, when did angels have power to confuse man’s language?

Only God is known to do this.

Anything angels do is with the power of God.

Revelation 16:1-2 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Another mention of any God having anything to do with men’s languages is The Holy Spirit (coincidentally, a person of The Trinity) in The Upper Room in the Book of Acts.

And…

Exodus 4:11
The LORD said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth?
Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind?
Is it not I, the LORD?

Even when Gabriel spoke to Zachariah and he was silenced, Gabriel stated that he stood “in The Lord’s presence”.

This places him “outside” of God in that he was in front of God, therefore couldn’t be included as “part of” God and God Himself was there with Zachriah. It was God who silenced Zachariah.

Where was there an angel mentioned when Zachariah was unsilenced? No where.

If an angel did unsilence him, it was by the power of God, as I always said. Doesn’t say either way, only when he was made silent and an angel was there.

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Luke 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

 

[2ndGen]

Depends on who you think “US” is and whether or not they were just observing or actually gathering dirt or something to help.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

He stated let Us create man, not let us observe man being created. “let Us create”

It would be a lie to state that she observed while you did the typing.

Would it be a lie to say “Let’s get the message out” but she was just observing and giving me moral support as I was doing it?

I’m sorry. I’m lost there. I asked if the angels are ever known to have eaten of the tree, not God.

They were as gods who knew good and evil, that’s what God was referring to. Not eating from the tree.

Show me where it states that angels did the confusing.

More proofs of angels doing the opposite of “creating”.

Revelation is replaying Babel, where the one voice of Legion is confused to knock down the empire. If an angel didn’t do it at Babel, it is certainly doing it in Revelation. But again, with God’s power behind it.

But it doesn’t state that the angel did the silencing, only that he told him who did the silencing JUST like when Gabriel told Mary what was about to happen to her (but didn’t do it) when The Holy Spirit came upon her and conveived her with Jesus.

Where does the angel say who did the silencing?

 

[2ndGen]

Would it be a lie to say “Let’s get the message out” but she was just observing and giving me moral support as I was doing it?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Angels? Giving God moral support while He was creating man?

Why not, they did it when God was creating the earth.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The “they” He was referring to was Adam and Eve. Right? He was comparing them to Him in that now, they knew acquired that knowledge (and He put a stop to that realizing that He couldn’t trust His creation to keep His commands).

But not to eating the fruit, which is what you implied angels didn’t do, I think?

FOA: Where does the angel say who did the silencing?

He said that he was there in God’s presence.

Did the angel say God did it, or that he did it with God’s power?

Being that the angel never said “I will silence you”; he said “you will be silenced”, who do you think did the silencing when only the angel and God were there besides Zachariah?

Is there a 3rd party?

Maybe God, maybe the angel with God’s power.

Doesn’t say for sure does it?

 

[2ndGen]

Why not, they did it when God was creating the earth.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Why not? Because God needs no support and it’s not stated in scripture.

Since when was praise moral support?

Moral support means that a person needs some kind of external confirmation of what their doing. This places God equal to the angels.

No, it means they were there happy with what He was doing. This is just nitpicking to absurdity. Job says angels were there when the earth was created, and when Adam was created.

So there you have it.

 

[2ndGen]

No, it means they were there happy with what He was doing. This is just nitpicking to absurdity. Job says angels were there when the earth was created, and when Adam was created.

So there you have it.

They were happy with what He was doing?

Are you implying that they somehow “approved” of His work?

The debate never centered around angels existing when God created angels…but around your belief that angels created man with God.

And of course I’m going to nitpick down to the minutest detail. You said some pretty outlandish things about God and the angels role in creating man.

I just could not rest until I found out where you derived the belief that angels were co-creators with God.

 

[fbl9]

hi FaithofAbraham, do you accept what christians call the new testament if you do read the first letter of St. John 5:7. trea

 

[FaithofAbraham]

They were happy with what He was doing?

Are you implying that they somehow “approved” of His work?

The debate never centered around angels existing when God created angels…but around your belief that angels created man with God.

And of course I’m going to nitpick down to the minutest detail. You said some pretty outlandish things about God and the angels role in creating man.

I just could not rest until I found out where you derived the belief that angels were co-creators with God.

I think I said from the start that angels may not have done any helping to create, and if they did they did so as servants to the Creator, not as the Creators or multiple gods. And regardless of all that, that they were there to serve as models for physical likeness according to the appearance of cherubim in Ezekiel and Revelation. And also there in Job before all that when the earth was created, as observers to “let’s do this!” type of thing even if they only watched and cheered God as He created.

I think you are just nitpicking because you want that WE/US business to be another exclusive bit of proof for deity of Jesus, and the possibility of anything else there with God, like angels, threatens that.

But anyway, I think that about covers it.

 

[inJESUS]

Would it be a lie to say “Let’s get the message out” but she was just observing and giving me moral support as I was doing it?

if God says :

Let us talk to man, i\d understand your point of view…God and angels can both talk to man

Let us reveal my word to man, i’d understand your point…God and angels can reveal God’s word to man

But let us CREATE? nop God can but angels cannot because the Bible is clear that ONLY the Father, His Word and His Spirit created man.

God is neither asking for a physical support (He says Be and it is"), the Bible does not mention ANY support done by the angels, neither for moral support, the Bible doesn’t mention ANYthing said by the angels to boost God’s morality or give Him opinions. God is saying let us CREATE and the Bible says Only Father, Word and Spirit create.

Saying God is saying : let God and angels create man is shirk, associatin partners with God.

 

[2ndGen]

I think I said from the start that angels may not have done any helping to create, and if they did they did so as servants to the Creator, not as the Creators or multiple gods. And regardless of all that, that they were there to serve as models for physical likeness according to the appearance of cherubim in Ezekiel and Revelation. And also there in Job before all that when the earth was created, as observers to “let’s do this!” type of thing even if they only watched and cheered God as He created.

I think you are just nitpicking because you want that WE/US business to be another exclusive bit of proof for deity of Jesus, and the possibility of anything else there with God, like angels, threatens that.

But anyway, I think that about covers it.

I don’t know.

I’ve never seen the bible state that man was created in the image of angel nor that angels were created in the image of God.

 

[2ndGen]

hi FaithofAbraham, do you accept what christians call the new testament if you do read the first letter of St. John 5:7. trea

You are right sir!

1!

Not many, but only 3 = 1!

1 John 5:7
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

And I believe that that’s a resounding youtube.com/watch?v=oGaHpexp2-4 !

 

[inJESUS]

I think you are just nitpicking because you want that WE/US business to be another exclusive bit of proof for deity of Jesus, and the possibility of anything else there with God, like angels, threatens that…

he is nitpicking because he follows what the Bible says, not his imagination that opposes scriptures. I gave a dozen quote about only the Father, His Word and His Spirit creating everything. The deity of the Father, Word and Spirit is there in front of your eyes, no one sould nitpick what is obvious.

once you say angels helped creating, then you say they were observers, then they give moral support, yet the Bible says " let us CREATE = Let GOD AND angels CREATE= associatin partners with God when God clearly says only He, His Word and His Spirit create. Since Father, Word and Spirit is the Only Creator, then let US, scripturally, means Let the Father, Word and Spirit create. Angels have got nothing to do with creation.

 

[2ndGen]

he is nitpicking because he follows what the Bible says, not his imagination that opposes scriptures. I gave a dozen quote about only the Father, His Word and His Spirit creating everything. The deity of the Father, Word and Spirit is there in front of your eyes, no one sould nitpick what is obvious.

once you say angels helped creating, then you say they were observers, then they give moral support, yet the Bible says " let us CREATE = Let GOD AND angels CREATE= associatin partners with God when God clearly says only He, His Word and His Spirit create. Since Father, Word and Spirit is the Only Creator, then let US, scripturally, means Let the Father, Word and Spirit create. Angels have got nothing to do with creation.

Thanks inJESUS!

You are 101% Rite!