If God is outside of time

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tiagolc

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It would mean that Heaven is outside of time, right? Then, we could be waching our lives right now from Heaven, right? That said, we are all at the same time in Heaven, meaning that, at the time we get to Heaven it would be the end of times and that we will experience His second coming right after we die. Is that the teaching of the Church? If not, shed light please.
 
Anything that can change still experiences “before”, “now”, and “after”.
Since you cannot be in two places at once, you cannot see yourself, your life, on earth unfolding (by the way, thinking you could do that would also mean there is the experience of time in heaven).

Only God is outside of time, because all is simultaneously present within him. Anything not God (created) has movement, and therefore experiences time, including heaven.

If you recall from the book of Revelation, the Saints under the Altar in Heaven asking “How long…?”

God, himself, being timeless, does not “watch our lives unfold”, but knows them in their entirety in an instant, fully complete and always, as if you might imagine a 4 dimensional snapshot, and the snapshot (you) are alive to him. He sees you all simultaneously, but you see him a vast number of times from your snapshot looking back at him with varying understandings of who and what you are seeing. And both of you are happy to know each other and be together.
 
tiagolc said:
It would mean that Heaven is outside of time, right? Then, we could be waching our lives right now from Heaven, right? That said, we are all at the same time in Heaven, meaning that, at the time we get to Heaven it would be the end of times and that we will experience His second coming right after we die. Is that the teaching of the Church? If not, shed light please.
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I don’t think the Church teaches that we enter eternity when we die. St. Thomas Aquinas said we enter sempiternity, I think, which is different from eternity because you can’t see the future in sempiternity, among other reasons. You should be able to Google sempiternity for more info.
 
Oh, I thought that Heaven was outside of time because I heard something and probably misunderstood it. So Heaven is attached to time, huh? So how is it that I heard that Mary and the Saints know what will happen on Earth before it does? And how do they hear our prayers (Beatific Vision, I know, but I never quite understood it completely)?
 
tiagolc said:
So Heaven is attached to time, huh?
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I don’t think that’s exactly how I would put it, but it is my understanding that saints and angels do experience some sort of progression of time. It is my understanding that their minds process new information instantaneously, and thus time seems different for them.
So how is it that I heard that Mary and the Saints know what will happen on Earth before it does?
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Unless God reveals the future to them as He does for prophets, I don’t think they can know the future with any certainty.
And how do they hear our prayers (Beatific Vision, I know, but I never quite understood it completely)?
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It is my understanding that prayers are spiritual. Perhaps, therefore, our prayers enter sempiternity upon being prayed. I think that whatever is in sempiternity can be instantly known by all who are there, because their minds can seek out and process any existing finite information instantly, so long as a free agent reveals it. Perhaps that is why they can hear our prayers.

But the usual explanation I hear is, God allows them to hear our prayers when He hears us pray to one of them. That explanation would seem to work on a case by case basis.
 
dmar198 said:
I don’t think the Church teaches that we enter eternity when we die. St. Thomas Aquinas said we enter sempiternity, I think, which is different from eternity because you can’t see the future in sempiternity, among other reasons. You should be able to Google sempiternity for more info.
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I am glad to hear that because it makes a lot more sense that time in some form exists in heaven.

However, I have read quite different views on these forums. It sounds like many Catholics believe that there is no time in heaven (or in hell) - that in heaven, there is eternity in the presence of God (except that we are waiting for our glorified bodies!).

I have even read here that there is no time in purgatory - which makes no sense at all - if something is temporary, there must be time.
 
John_Martin said:
Anything that can change still experiences “before”, “now”, and “after”.
Since you cannot be in two places at once, you cannot see yourself, your life, on earth unfolding (by the way, thinking you could do that would also mean there is the experience of time in heaven).

Only God is outside of time, because all is simultaneously present within him. Anything not God (created) has movement, and therefore experiences time, including heaven.

If you recall from the book of Revelation, the Saints under the Altar in Heaven asking “How long…?”

God, himself, being timeless, does not “watch our lives unfold”, but knows them in their entirety in an instant, fully complete and always, as if you might imagine a 4 dimensional snapshot, and the snapshot (you) are alive to him. He sees you all simultaneously, but you see him a vast number of times from your snapshot looking back at him with varying understandings of who and what you are seeing. And both of you are happy to know each other and be together.
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Such a God cannot be the creator. Proof:

Facts:
A) Creation has a beginning
B) God does not have any before and after
C) Nothingness exists

This means that exist two state of existences, first {God, Nothingness} and then {God, Creation}. This however subject God to time hence God cannot create universe from nothingness unless creation is quasi-eternal (has no beginning and end).
 
The beatific vision is the “vision of God”, happiness.

When a Saint is in heaven, with no body to interact with (which humans require to interact) the only way of knowing is by direct “inspiration” of knowledge. This comes from God, via his angels.

When you pray to a Saint, then God, knowing your prayer and knowing that it will increase the happiness of the Saint to know you are calling him or her, will require an angel to inspire that knowledge of the prayer in the intellect of the Saint.

Usually you are asking a Saint for help when praying. When the Saint has learned of your prayer, the Saint will desire that you be helped. But he has no body for talking to God. He has only the desire to help and he cannot fulfill that desire himself, nor even say a word to anyone. But, God has promised happiness to the Saint, and knows the Saint’s desire to help you because they are united in Love. So because it is the Saint’s desire that you be helped (in addition to your desire, or even more so) God will have an angel inspire the Saint with understanding of what His plan is to help you (whether immediately or at some future time that is suitable). This understanding is such good news to the Saint that he continues in his Happiness with God, until one day he will see the Lord face to face in the resurrection. And what God told to the Saint will happen for you just as God revealed by his holy Angel to the understanding of the Saint.
 
John_Martin said:
The beatific vision is the “vision of God”, happiness.

When a Saint is in heaven, with no body to interact with (which humans require to interact) the only way of knowing is by direct “inspiration” of knowledge. This comes from God, via his angels.

When you pray to a Saint, then God, knowing your prayer and knowing that it will increase the happiness of the Saint to know you are calling him or her, will require an angel to inspire that knowledge of the prayer in the intellect of the Saint.

Usually you are asking a Saint for help when praying. When the Saint has learned of your prayer, the Saint will desire that you be helped. But he has no body for talking to God. He has only the desire to help and he cannot fulfill that desire himself, nor even say a word to anyone. But, God has promised happiness to the Saint, and knows the Saint’s desire to help you because they are united in Love. So because it is the Saint’s desire that you be helped (in addition to your desire, or even more so) God will have an angel inspire the Saint with understanding of what His plan is to help you (whether immediately or at some future time that is suitable). This understanding is such good news to the Saint that he continues in his Happiness with God, until one day he will see the Lord face to face in the resurrection. And what God told to the Saint will happen for you just as God revealed by his holy Angel to the understanding of the Saint.
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Huh? And why we are supposed to communicate with Saint or Angels in order to communicate with God? We are unholy. Does communication turns something holy into unholy? Hence Angels and Saint becomes unholy upon communication with us.
 
Bahman said:
Huh? And why we are supposed to communicate with Saint or Angels in order to communicate with God? We are unholy. Does communication turns something holy into unholy? Hence Angels and Saint becomes unholy upon communication with us.
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Bahman,
This is a Catholic question and being answered by understandings of Revelation from God as given within the Church.

In the Catholic Church we do pray to Saints and ask them to intercede with us to God on our behalf.

Also, I don’t think you realize that we in the Church are a holy people, a holy nation, set apart so that even though we are in the world we are not of the world, but from God in the world to do his work in the world.

You might also say that contrary to “a Saint becoming unholy” if we communicate to a Saint, rather the Saint aids us in our holiness.
 
John_Martin said:
Bahman,
This is a Catholic question and being answered by understandings of Revelation from God as given within the Church.

In the Catholic Church we do pray to Saints and ask them to intercede with us to God on our behalf.

Also, I don’t think you realize that we in the Church are a holy people, a holy nation, set apart so that even though we are in the world we are not of the world, but from God in the world to do his work in the world.

You might also say that contrary to “a Saint becoming unholy” if we communicate to a Saint, rather the Saint aids us in our holiness.
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And where does exactly the line between holy and unholy resides? Either is something or we are talking nonsense.
 
i’d say you’re talking nonsense, if you think we can’t pray to the saints.😉
 
Bahman said:
And where does exactly the line between holy and unholy resides? Either is something or we are talking nonsense.
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It resides in being Baptized into the Church, where you are set apart as a member of this holy people (which includes the Saints in Heaven - we are one holy people with them; they have gone before us and we are following after them). It is necessary for us, being the People of God, to have direct interaction with God and all the People of God, including the Saints, and the holy Angels.

Unholy is that which is not cleansed for use in holy tasks, but suited for everyday tasks.

Then there is a third category besides holy and unholy. That category is “sinful”.
 
John_Martin said:
It resides in being Baptized into the Church, where you are set apart as a member of this holy people (which includes the Saints in Heaven - we are one holy people with them; they have gone before us and we are following after them). It is necessary for us, being the People of God, to have direct interaction with God and all the People of God, including the Saints, and the holy Angels.

Unholy is that which is not cleansed for use in holy tasks, but suited for everyday tasks.

Then there is a third category besides holy and unholy. That category is “sinful”.
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Then why pray to Saint and Angels if Baptizem makes the job? Who was the first that baptized others? S/he must be holy and unholy at the same time!?
 
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