B
Bahman
Guest
You apparently missed post #8 and #37.
- Your being is irreducible
- What is irreducible is not made of other things
- Hence, what is irreducible is not changeable by others
- Status
T
tiagolc
Guest
Exactly, you can’t change God. IDK what is the issue here.
J
John_Martin
Guest
You are correct, Bahman - God cannot change us without killing us. And that is exactly what he does. Have you never read the Scripture? “We were buried with him (Jesus) by Baptism, into death (we die), so that as Christ was raised by the glory of the Father, we too are able to walk in newness of life (holiness).”
He has no intention of bringing us sinfully into heaven, as if heaven would be filled with sin. But our revealed God is the God who kills and makes alive that which has died.
Now, all of this is aside from the point of the post, as to there being time in heaven, and God not being essentially in time. Since heaven is a creation, it had a “beginning”, it has “now”, and it will be, “future”. Have you also not read that “In the beginning, God created Heaven and Earth”? Heaven is a creature of God, just as the Angels, and as we are, and as the earth is. All created Good, very Good. And all in time.
Yes, there is sin and evil and ungodliness here with us, but that was not a surprise to God when he created all that he created. He fully expected it, yet in order to have creatures who freely loved him to share his goodness, he created us with the full intention of saving us with our consent (not by force).
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
After reading that I have a headache! I think I will just stick to the text of the Catechism which says simply, per the Creed, " …and I believe in life everlasting…" I’ll leave it to God to tell us how it will be, and I doubt that we will much care
.Pax
Linus2nd
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
That is what we have been telling you Bahman, our God does not change, unless you want to consider knowing and willing as change. But knowing and willing does not involve any change in God’s Essence because his knowing and willing are one eternal act - he knows and wills all things at once, even future things.
Bahman, why not join our team and " Cross the Tiber? "
Linus2nd
W
wmw
Guest
This reminds me that I’ve not thought it through whether the new heaven and earth created for replacement of this age is just an expression of our material universe and not the spiritual place of heaven
or
is the heaven that is home to souls today made unnecessary because they/we would live with Christ on the new, glorified earth and a new heaven for only the Angels to live also is made anew.
T
tiagolc
Guest
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.”
There you have the Cathechism on that.
O
openmind77
Guest
I am still confused by the existence of ‘time’ in heaven. So has Judgment Day already occurred for those in heaven or is still to occur? If there is no time, then it must have already happened as far as they are concerned.
Even if there is time, they have already been judged so what does Judgment Day mean for them?
Does that mean that only the living will be judged on Judgment Day?
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
Each soul is judged at the moment of death and their ’ eternal ’ life begins at that moment. Judgment day refers to the end of the world when our bodies will be reunited to our souls and Christ will send each of us either to hell or heaven. Or perhaps I should say that our bodies will be reunited with our souls which are already in hell or heaven. However many souls will be in Purgatory and these will be released, united with threir bodies and dispatched to heaven. No one in Purgatory will go to hell, it is a place for " cleaning up " our attitudes before being allowed to enter heaven.
All will receive a final judgment, both the living and the dead. Those who are alive on the last day will experience death. This may be as a result of the general destruction of the universe or by some direct act of God, for all flesh must die.
Since we are creatures, it is believed we will experience the passage or time, of existing from moment, but that this experience will last forever or be eternal.
O
openmind77
Guest
I guess that means Judgment Day is only for the living. Those who are dead have already been judgment and placed in hell or heaven (or in purgatory on the way to heaven).
But in all three places time must exist, for the unification with the body to occur in the future.
B
Bahman
Guest
That was an argument to say that God cannot change us.
D
dmar198
Guest
I don’t think so, it is my understanding that those who have already been judged after death will be present again at Judgment Day to re-hear their sentence. The purpose is simply to show the justice of God before all the nations. At least, that is how the Baltimore Catechism seems to explain it: “The sentence given at the particular judgment will not be changed at the general judgment, but it will be repeated and made public to all.” source
It seems that something like time must exist in heaven, but it doesn’t need to be the same as what it is here. At this link St. Thomas tries to explain the difference between the way things are done in heaven versus the way things are done here, and time is one of those differences, if I understand him correctly.
Of course, time does not pass for God, for whom all moments are in one eternal now.
T
tiagolc
Guest
Oh so you meant us with “Your being”?
B
Bahman
Guest
I meant your being and my being.
B
bisco1
Guest
everywhere a being being.
D
dmar198
Guest
T
tiagolc
Guest
How are we irreducible?
B
Bahman
Guest
We are conscious being, consciousness is primary hence we are irreducible.
T
tiagolc
Guest
Yes yes, but we can change what we do, what we want, how we feel, and remember that nothing is imposible to God. Being Holy or not is not something that implies changing our being, it implies changing our soul, which can change just like our will and our feelings do, you can even make yourself Holy by following the teachings of the Church. Come on! Cross the Tiber, we really don’t want to loose you
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
Yes, all are judged at the moment of death. But the general judgment is when God explains to all why each person was judged the way they were. All will see his justice in each case. So were aren’t really judged a second time, it is like opening the books for all to see, nothing will be hidden. And then our reunited bodies and souls will go to either hell or heaven.
Those who are still alive at the end will receive their individual judgments ( after they die ) like the rest of us did when we died. Then they will be a part of the General Judgment.
Kind of scary isn’t it? And you know what, it will happen to atheists as well. What they think now will make no difference. Quite a gamble they are taking isn’t it?
Linus2nd
- Status