If heaven does exist, do you want to be there?

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Why or why not?
If the choice is between a heaven and non existence, I chose non existence. It’s more natural.

If the choice is only between heaven or hell, I chose heaven.

However, what I believe is I will simply cease to be in my current form, and my material make up will join the carbon/nitrogen cycle, until such time as the earth explodes or implodes when the sun cools sufficiently, which will eventually happen. I will then become part of the physical make up of the larger cosmos, and on and on it goes.

Sarah x 🙂
 
So what would you choose instead of heaven?
I’m not a substance dualist so I don’t see it as a personally meaningful choice. I quite expect my consciousness and my personal identity to dissipate when I expire. It’s a bit like making a choice of what shoes to wear after my legs are cut off.
 
If the choice is between a heaven and non existence, I chose non existence. It’s more natural.
I have one question for your consideration: If non-existence is more natural, then wouldn’t your existence be indication of purposed existence because your existence seemingly goes against that which is more natural?
 
wouldn’t your existence be indication of purposed existence because your existence seemingly goes against that which is more natural?
My existence is in perfect accord with nature.

Living things, including me, are born, live, then die.

That’s the natural cycle of things.

What’s completely unnatural, is to be born, live, die, then carry on living for all eternity in another realm.

Sarah x 🙂
 
I have one question for your consideration: If non-existence is more natural, then wouldn’t your existence be indication of purposed existence because your existence seemingly goes against that which is more natural?
This is the one thing that makes me believe in God. My existence seems to be the most unnatural thing there is. It is easy for me to say it is natural for other people to be born, live and die; but for me to know that I was born, live, and will die doesn’t seem to make sense to me. How do I exist? What am I?
 
My existence is in perfect accord with nature.

Living things, including me, are born, live, then die.

That’s the natural cycle of things.

What’s completely unnatural, is to be born, live, die, then carry on living for all eternity in another realm.

Sarah x 🙂
Perhaps consider the time before anything living existed, or even before anything existed: Wouldn’t it be unnatural for something non-living to produce something living? OR Wouldn’t non-existence more naturally continually yield non-existence?

If you were to consider the proposed age when the earth was only non-living materials or even prior to that when there were only stars, the natural cycle of things would have been:
Non-living things act according to certain laws.
More non-living things act according to the same laws.
Non-living things continue to act according to the same laws.

According to the nature of this cycle, living things are completely unnatural.
 
My existence is in perfect accord with nature.

Living things, including me, are born, live, then die.

That’s the natural cycle of things.

What’s completely unnatural, is to be born, live, die, then carry on living for all eternity in another realm.

Sarah x 🙂
Your body is born, lives, and then dies.

That is actually unnatural. The original state of affairs, prior to the Fall, would have precluded this cycle. Human death, deformity, disease: all of these things came into the world as a consequence of the Original Sin.

You soul is supernatural (above nature) and is eternal.

Limiting reality and knowledge to that which can be detected by the scientific method is a decision of the will, not the intellect.
 
Your body is born, lives, and then dies.
Right.
That is actually unnatural. The original state of affairs, prior to the Fall, would have precluded this cycle. Human death, deformity, disease: all of these things came into the world as a consequence of the Original Sin.
This is a matter of faith, which I respect.

There’s no evidence that anything, anywhere, at any time, did not live, then die.
You soul is supernatural (above nature) and is eternal.
I don’t believe I have a soul, in the sense of an eternal entity that will continue to exist apart from my body when I die.
Limiting reality and knowledge to that which can be detected by the scientific method is a decision of the will, not the intellect.
Maybe, but I can’t intellectually subscribe to something I do not see any evidence for.

Sarah x 🙂
 
This is a matter of faith, which I respect.
I used to be a materialist like you and I am familiar with all the arguments. I think a quote from Schopenhauer sums up how I felt during those times:

We begin in the madness of carnal desire and the transport of voluptuousness, we end in the dissolution of all our parts and the musty stench of corpses. And the road from the one to the other too goes, in regard to our well-being and enjoyment of life, steadily downhill: happily dreaming childhood, exultant youth, toil-filled years of manhood, infirm and often wretched old age, the torment of the last illness and finally the throes of death - does it not look as if existence were an error the consequences of which gradually grow more and more manifest?

Sound rather depressing, but as a materialist, I did put my hope in death which I saw not as the beginning of Eternity but rather Annihilation from the pains of this life of suffering.

But there was a problem, I had been Baptised as a child and had been raised in a devout Catholic household. I couldn’t quite shake that experience, especially the effects of the Sacraments. I also knew that there was objective right and wrong and knew that evil was a real, personal force in this world. I also knew that Love, especially the Love that dwells in children and the innocent, was a real Person. I couldn’t really shake my Faith even when I was a hardcore atheist.

In any case, Reason prepares the way to Faith. The Catechism makes it clear that “the existence of God the Creator** can be known with certainty **through his works, by the light of human reason.” Reason can show that that there is a Creator and can demonstrate his primary attributes. Reason lays the foundation for faith. Reason is thus the common ground between believers and unbelievers. Faith without reason withers into myth or superstition.

The Catechism teaches that, "by natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation. Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man… He has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

The Catechism goes on to teach that, "Indeed Baptism is “the sacrament of faith” in a particular way, since it is the sacramental entry into the life of faith.

So, I would just ask you atheistgirl, “Have you been Baptised?” If the answer is “yes” then Faith is still somewhere inside you. If the answer is “no” then perhaps you should look into it, because Faith, while based on Reason, is still a gift.

Since I started off quoting Schopenhauer, I will end on a more positive note with Venerable Fulton Sheen:

The awful seriousness of the pagan centuries lay like a pall over mankind: All the genius of the Greek playwrights could not conceal the deep despair that filled the cramped hearts of those who found no greater meaning in the world than its own brittle beauty of color, line, and rhythmic harmony. Truth was the noblest master any pagan poet or philosospher had found to serve - but truth, when seen, appeared as loveless and impersonal.

The pagan’s sad despair heard, on the stillness of a winter breeze, the cry of the Babe. The great ones of the earth did not hear the cry, for they were occupied with the concerns of self. There were only two classes of people who heard that cry: shepherds and wise men. The shepherds represented those who know that they know nothing; and the wise men stood for those who know how little learning teaches us. The two kinds of simple-hearted pilgrims saw a Babe, and they saw It with a Divine sense of humor. They saw God through that human form. It was the Word, Who had become Emanuel, God with us.

And when the Babe grew in age and grace and wisdom, He went into the public lanes and marketplaces and began to teach a new doctrine: the doctrine of the Divine Sense of Humor. It could all be summed up in these words: “Nothing in this world is to be taken seriously - nothing except the salvation of a soul. The world, and the things that are in it, will one day be folded up like an Arab’s tent; you are not to live exclusively for this life.” It came as a shock to those who were taking the world seriously to hear Him, the God-Man, thunder out: “How is a man the better for it, if he gains the whole world at the cost of losing his own soul?”

There is only one place in Sacred Scripture where God is said to laugh: “He Who Dwells in Heaven is laughing at their threats, the Lord makes light of them” (Psalm 2:4). So when the materialist or atheist sets himself up as God, denying any dependence on a Creator, repudiating his need of a Savior to forgive his faults and sins, then he becomes so ridiculous as to provoke the laughter of God Himself…But while God laughs at the atheists, the saints and those who have a Divine sense of humor laugh at themselves. Their faith has taught them that this life is only a vestibule to the next and that everything in it is a kind of sacramental, leading the soul to God. They envisage the world as a scaffolding, up which soul would climb to the Kingdom of God. When the last soul shall have climbed up it, the saffolding wil be torn down and burnt with fervent fire - not because it is base, but because it will have done its work of bringing us back again to God.

It may well be that on the Last Day, when the Good Lord comes to judge the living and the dead, He will give a very special gift to those who have not taken the world too seriously but have made every material thing in it a steppingstone to Heaven. To those who have not taken either themselves or the world too seriously - to those who have a Divine sense of humor - He will show His smile.
 
The awful seriousness of the pagan centuries lay like a pall over mankind: All the genius of the Greek playwrights could not conceal the deep despair that filled the cramped hearts of those who found no greater meaning in the world than its own brittle beauty of color, line, and rhythmic harmony. Truth was the noblest master any pagan poet or philosospher had found to serve - but truth, when seen, appeared as loveless and impersonal.

The pagan’s sad despair heard, on the stillness of a winter breeze, the cry of the Babe. The great ones of the earth did not hear the cry, for they were occupied with the concerns of self. There were only two classes of people who heard that cry: shepherds and wise men. The shepherds represented those who know that they know nothing; and the wise men stood for those who know how little learning teaches us. The two kinds of simple-hearted pilgrims saw a Babe, and they saw It with a Divine sense of humor. They saw God through that human form. It was the Word, Who had become Emanuel, God with us.

And when the Babe grew in age and grace and wisdom, He went into the public lanes and marketplaces and began to teach a new doctrine: the doctrine of the Divine Sense of Humor. It could all be summed up in these words: “Nothing in this world is to be taken seriously - nothing except the salvation of a soul. The world, and the things that are in it, will one day be folded up like an Arab’s tent; you are not to live exclusively for this life.” It came as a shock to those who were taking the world seriously to hear Him, the God-Man, thunder out: “How is a man the better for it, if he gains the whole world at the cost of losing his own soul?”

There is only one place in Sacred Scripture where God is said to laugh: “He Who Dwells in Heaven is laughing at their threats, the Lord makes light of them” (Psalm 2:4). So when the materialist or atheist sets himself up as God, denying any dependence on a Creator, repudiating his need of a Savior to forgive his faults and sins, then he becomes so ridiculous as to provoke the laughter of God Himself…But while God laughs at the atheists, the saints and those who have a Divine sense of humor laugh at themselves. Their faith has taught them that this life is only a vestibule to the next and that everything in it is a kind of sacramental, leading the soul to God. They envisage the world as a scaffolding, up which soul would climb to the Kingdom of God. When the last soul shall have climbed up it, the saffolding wil be torn down and burnt with fervent fire - not because it is base, but because it will have done its work of bringing us back again to God.

It may well be that on the Last Day, when the Good Lord comes to judge the living and the dead, He will give a very special gift to those who have not taken the world too seriously but have made every material thing in it a steppingstone to Heaven. To those who have not taken either themselves or the world too seriously - to those who have a Divine sense of humor - He will show His smile.
That’s all very wordy and long winded and emotive, what I’d expect from Fulton Sheen after watching some of his videos on youtube. I have to admit, I’m not a fan of his.

But to the point, perhaps God is laughing at me 🤷 who knows?

I’m not laughing at God though.

I also don’t take this life too seriously - I know I can take nothing with me, so although I work hard, and have provided well for my family, since they’ll be carrying on after me so I work to leave them a legacy, I personally, travel light, very light 😉

Sarah x 🙂
 
I also don’t take this life too seriously - I know I can take nothing with me, so although I work hard, and have provided well for my family, since they’ll be carrying on after me so I work to leave them a legacy, I personally, travel light, very light 😉

Sarah x 🙂
Good for you!

Thank God for your sucess.🙂
 
The answer to “Why” is “Why not?”
That’s the answer offered by naturalists to the questions of purpose posed by supernaturalists!

Historically, descriptions and depictions of hell have always been far more detailed (and horrifying, quite deliberately) than depictions of heaven. Maybe this is because every individual’s idea of ultimate fulfillment, ultimate joy, whatever heaven is supposed to be, is likely to be different, since we all have different tastes. To me, heaven might be an eternity of cooking and eating delicious food, under the instruction of Michelin-starred chefs; to someone else, it might be playing or watching football - or even dissecting every match as if it were a major socio-political event - which, to me, frankly, would be pretty close to hell.

Personally, I rather love Christopher Hitchens’ comparison of heaven to North Korea - the only difference being that in present-day North Korea, at least you have the opportunity to die and be free of the constant need to worship the “dear leader”!
 
That’s all very wordy and long winded and emotive, what I’d expect from Fulton Sheen after watching some of his videos on youtube. I have to admit, I’m not a fan of his.

But to the point, perhaps God is laughing at me 🤷 who knows?

I’m not laughing at God though.

I also don’t take this life too seriously - I know I can take nothing with me, so although I work hard, and have provided well for my family, since they’ll be carrying on after me so I work to leave them a legacy, I personally, travel light, very light 😉

Sarah x 🙂
I have to say, I love your attitude to life, from everything I’ve read of your postings on these fora. What matters - to many people, anyway - is working towards the things that are important to you as an individual, whether that’s your family and/or a particular cause about which you feel passionately, and I can’t help but respect that. You’re a refreshing contributor to CAF 🙂
 
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Sair:
Personally, I rather love Christopher Hitchens’ comparison of heaven to North Korea - the only difference being that in present-day North Korea, at least you have the opportunity to die and be free of the constant need to worship the “dear leader”!
My sentiment exactly. The idea of heaven is incredibly boring - sitting on a cloud and constantly singing hymns and playing a harp sounds horrible (by the way… do the believers practice the harp? I practice it quite frequently… the kind that is displayed on the Guiness beer bottles :)). I bet God went absolutely crazy after a few millenia being exposed to such a torture, unless he is just a narcisstic fellow. 🙂 On the other hand, hell must have been concocted by a psychopath. To even imagine an endless pain and suffering is simply sick. And to assert that this is the sign of God’s “love” is beyond the pale. The irrationality of some people is truly “limitless”.
 
Historically, descriptions and depictions of hell have always been far more detailed (and horrifying, quite deliberately) than depictions of heaven.
That’s a very good observation.
Personally, I rather love Christopher Hitchens’ comparison of heaven to North Korea - the only difference being that in present-day North Korea, at least you have the opportunity to die and be free of the constant need to worship the “dear leader”!
I did laugh the first time I heard him make that comparison. 😃
I have to say, I love your attitude to life, from everything I’ve read of your postings on these fora.

You’re a refreshing contributor to CAF 🙂
😊

Thank you. For me, you’re one of the posters I always read here, because I find your posts always interesting, and sometimes challenging.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Heaven is a totally impossible concept to even understand anyway. It’s ridiculous that people would even claim to long for something that they cant possible understand. If your happiest most fulfilling moments have happened on earth - in space, and time. What is the reference point for something that exists beyond that - what does that even mean? How could you imagine a happier moment than your happiest moment? It doesn’t even make sense. Don’t even go down the rabbit hole regarding free will, and what even makes us happy in the first place.

it always strikes me funny when christians make fun of muslims and their view of heaven when the bible describes it this way below. To be honest I don’t think I’d enjoy being around everything that was made of jewels - I’m partial to maple, and Oak is nice.😛

The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia [or 1,400 miles!] in length, and as wide and high as it is long [1,400 miles wide and tall!].

17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits [that is 200 feet!] thick.

18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass.

19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst

21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
 
I did laugh the first time I heard him make that comparison. 😃
Oh, me too! I loved what Sam Harris said about Hitchens at the Global Atheist Convention this year - “The man had more wit, style and substance than several civilisations I could name.” 🙂
Thank you. For me, you’re one of the posters I always read here, because I find your posts always interesting, and sometimes challenging.
Thank you also 😃
 
My sentiment exactly. The idea of heaven is incredibly boring - sitting on a cloud and constantly singing hymns and playing a harp sounds horrible (by the way… do the believers practice the harp? I practice it quite frequently… the kind that is displayed on the Guiness beer bottles :)). I bet God went absolutely crazy after a few millenia being exposed to such a torture, unless he is just a narcisstic fellow. 🙂 On the other hand, hell must have been concocted by a psychopath. To even imagine an endless pain and suffering is simply sick. And to assert that this is the sign of God’s “love” is beyond the pale. The irrationality of some people is truly “limitless”.
Oh, it’s not all harp-playing, you know - Tertullian opined that one of the pleasures of heaven would be taking the opportunity to look down over the walls and gloat at the suffering of all the poor wretches in hell. Probably not a particularly surprising speculation, coming from someone whose compatriots frequently enjoyed such things as gladiatorial matches, animal fights and vicious public executions…
 
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