If heaven does exist, do you want to be there?

[jochoa]

Ah, but that is not the way it goes. I do not have infinite patience to chase a mirage, which may very well not be there. Life is precious and I can think of zillions of better things to do with it.

Please consider the following:
Try to forget about the concept of heaven, try not even considering a life after death. Only consider the day to come: Do you want you and your family/friends to have greater peace and more joy in life in the day to come than they did on this day? OR Do you want you and your family/friends to experience greater distress and more misery and madness in life in the day to come than you all did on this day?

You forget, the “lake” represents heaven in this little parable. No one has ever been there. It is all hearsay.

Please recognize, I was absolutely certain the “lake” represented heaven. Please keep in mind, No one except the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have been/are there.

Not excatly. I stopped wasting my time to chase the mirage, but I am still open to the possibility that someone might have actual, precise information, which is worth to follow and see the result. But “be patient” simply does not cut it. It must have a precise timeline with a definite (and short) ending to it.

How would you term the following: I am certain there is a precise timeline with an end to the journey to get there, which in comparison to the ever-lasting time we will be at the “lake” will reveal the incredibly short amount of time spent on the journey, but I do not know the exact timeline.

To be honest the way that heaven is depicted is totally “unappetizing” to me. It sounds incredibly boring. And I would not want anything “forever” either.

Here are a few concepts to consider:
-I am sorry that my words are not shedding light on a image which is “appetizing” to you.
In attempts to help shed light on a better image, please consider the following:
Do you want to see your family and best of friends experiencing distress and anger when living, and do you want to aide in bringing your family/friends down to misery and depression? OR Do you want to see your family and best of friends having great fun without anyone getting intentionally hurt, and do you want to help in bringing them up to good times with peace?
Last consideration:
Do you want to live as long as you possibly can?

Thank you very much for the conversation! I thoroughly appreciate the opportunities you are presenting me with to explore how to better share the knowledge of the Heavenly Kingdom.

 

[Viewscreen]

If such a place of utmost perfection existed, and I could enjoy, I would only go there if I found everyone else there. If a single termite became excluded in hell, than I would go to hell with it and damn myself.

 

[jochoa]

Hmmm…I don’t quite agree with the “created” part but I would agree that many humans have a desire for greater peace and happiness. Not all do, but it’s common.

Thank you once again for continued discussion! Please consider the following line of thinking:
Peace comes from fulfilling needs. Reasoning: When we do not get what we need, we are dying, distressed, disturbed, not content, etc. Peace means freedom from disturbance or content.
Happiness comes from fulfilling wants*. Reasoning: When we get what we want, we are content, satisfied, happy, pleased, etc. Happiness means contentment to intense joy.
*You may use the terms: wants, desires, reasons to do things, purposes, goals

Do you know of any human that does not have any wants* or needs on any level (general or specific)?

I can’t quite agree with this. Some ones happiness can be driven by internal and external factors.

Please consider the following:
Do you it possible for a human to sometimes force him/herself to want what s/he gets?

One’s ability to modify their tendencies will also vary. An impulsive person may find himself unable to not act on impulses without the assistance of medication or other trusted ones being involved. There seem to be some biological factors that influence this. Many people can be reliably expected to fail and some behavioural modifications without external intervention. On the opposite end of that a compulsive person may also run into problems with breaking the compulsions. There’s assistance available to some people that wish to break these problems, but not to everyone.

I understand what you are saying.

And I must say that I find the concept of “limitless happiness” to be one that is rather alien to me as is “unbreakable peace.”

Perhaps consider this as a bridge to recognizing the concept: In a day, we can experience instances of peace and instances of happiness/fun/enjoyment/good times. The goal is to try to experience one more instance of peace and one more instance of happiness than the previous day. There are only so many instances in day, so eventually try to make every instance in a day, one of peace and happiness. Once you can do that, there are only so many instances in a week, so there is the next challenge. Then shoot for all the instances in a month. Eventually, we are faced with the challenge of having peace and happiness through the point of death and suffering of dying. When a person can have peace and happiness in all instances of time throughout the body, thoughts, and will, s/he will have achieved a time-based unbreakable peace and perfect happiness. The next challenge will be identifying if there is a way to maintain this experience after death, which can be identified by analyzing what is required for the possibility of a heavenly afterlife. Then can be verified by solving the following question: How does a person share the means to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, given the person initially exists in absolute solitude? The solution will reveal the Church of God!

Thank you greatly for extended discussion!

 

[jochoa]

If such a place of utmost perfection existed, and I could enjoy, I would only go there if I found everyone else there. If a single termite became excluded in hell, than I would go to hell with it and damn myself.

Very interesting perspective, my friend! Please consider a few questions:
-How do you define hell?
-Is there a limit to what not being included? For example, any plant, blade of grass, virus, amoeba, etc.
And from the connection between no life being excluded and your signature, would you damn yourself to hell, if a single non-living thing was excluded?

 

[tonyrey]

If such a place of utmost perfection existed, and I could enjoy, I would only go there if I found everyone else there. If a single termite became excluded in hell, than I would go to hell with it and damn myself.

Even if a person hates and torments you?

 

[tonyrey]

I have thought a lot about the possibility of both eternal non-existence and eternal existence. Since this thread is about heaven, I thought I would say that one of the things I have thought a lot about with regard to this issue is the phenomenon of NDEs.

I’m not going to debate whether they are real or not, since that would be off topic, but here is one I recently ran across that I found interesting:youtube.com/watch?v=xYZoX4N5_YQI find the depictions of the afterlife (and heaven) by NDE experiencers to be fascinating, and they depict heaven as a very desirable place to be. I think I would like such an afterlife.

Only a cynic rejects the value of life after death!

 

[Viewscreen]

Very interesting perspective, my friend! Please consider a few questions:
-How do you define hell?

Any state of eternal torment? No need to go anymore specific than that for me.

-Is there a limit to what not being included? For example, any plant, blade of grass, virus, amoeba, etc.

I have never felt that I was separate from the universe or anything in it. Even when I was mean, angry, bitter, I always (and still do) swallowed my pride and saw myself and my life aligned with the whole of existence, or in a “cosmic context”. I suppose this “all” is a pantheistic conception of sorts. But I don’t consider myself to be either a pantheist or a new ager. I just feel a deep sense of kinship and presence with everything, both living, and yes, non-living. You and I, deep down, are the same, is what I believe. Though I may not know this for a fact, I am willing to bet my entire existence on it. In any case, even if it isn’t a fact, my mind/body and “spirit” yearns for it to be a fact. If there would be such a glorious thing as heaven than its glory would not be able to exclude the whole of existence. It is too precious, all living things especially. Heaven would not be heaven if some aspect were to be excluded, and so I would turn aside from such a “lesser” existence. That is my sense of life and I feel like sticking to it.

And from the connection between no life being excluded and your signature, would you damn yourself to hell, if a single non-living thing was excluded?

I’m actually not entirely sure. Certainly things are “impermanent” in the sense that they are not entirely immortal. So in that sense, the dissolution of certain aspects of existence, I could stomach, as I stomach them now. But when it comes to Ultimate reality, this reality should be sufficiently impartial, of the nature of unconditional love, that it includes the memory at least of everything that ever existed. This is probably why we love and value memory so much. Because it is a reflection at least of this whole immortal vision.

 

[Viewscreen]

Even if a person hates and torments you?

While in the moment of him hating and tormenting me, I might experience extraordinary animosity, upon reflection, I doubt that I would wish eternal damnation on even my most bitter of enemies. Thank God I am not capable of such infinite hate.

 

[Trurl]

jochoa:

Try to forget about the concept of heaven, try not even considering a life after death. Only consider the day to come: Do you want you and your family/friends to have greater peace and more joy in life in the day to come than they did on this day? OR Do you want you and your family/friends to experience greater distress and more misery and madness in life in the day to come than you all did on this day?

Why should we forget about heaven? That was the the main topic of our conversation. As to your questions, the answer is obvious. Of course I want the best for them and also for everyone else.

jochoa:

Please recognize, I was absolutely certain the “lake” represented heaven. Please keep in mind, No one except the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have been/are there.

Fine. So maybe you want to amend your previous answer, when yo usaid that you have been on that lakeshore.

jochoa:

How would you term the following: I am certain there is a precise timeline with an end to the journey to get there, which in comparison to the ever-lasting time we will be at the “lake” will reveal the incredibly short amount of time spent on the journey, but I do not know the exact timeline.

Sorry, does not work. You say that the time before the “lake” is insignificant, but that is only your personal opinion (shared by millions of others, for sure) but it is not relevant for me. As I said, I am willing to keep the options open, but no amount of personal conviction or testimony is worth an iota of hard, physical evidence, which is (of course) never forthcoming.

jochoa:

Last consideration:
Do you want to live as long as you possibly can?

Not unconditionally. If you happened to read Swift’s “Gulliver’s travels” you might remember the story of the “strudlbrugs”, those unfortunates, who are “cursed” to have an eternal life, with ever increasing decay and misery, and who are deprived of death. What people really want, is a very long life of healthy and young existence, NOT anything eternal. I would love to live as long as I wish (as a healthy and young 28 years old) with a healthy and well working mind… probably after a few millenia, I might get weary of existence, who knows? In the meantime, I would be happy to lead a varied lifestyle, reading many books, visiting innumerable places, playing many games, participating in a lot of discussions… etc… etc… now that would be appealing. But the usual singing and harp-playing “syrupy” existence, the way heaven is described is horrifying to me.

 

[jochoa]

Any state of eternal torment? No need to go anymore specific than that for me.

Once again, your perspective is very interesting! I have one proposal for your consideration. Please consider the following concept:
Given that as long as there is the need for a food chain on planet earth, there will always be pain and suffering on earth.
Therefore, earth is a place where there is always pain and suffering OR earth is a place of eternal torment, which as defined by you is hell.

Would you agree with this line of thinking?

 

[Trurl]

Once again, your perspective is very interesting! I have one proposal for your consideration. Please consider the following concept:
Given that as long as there is the need for a food chain on planet earth, there will always be pain and suffering on earth.

But there is no logical necessity for a “food chain”. The whole population could be composed of vegetation, where all beings utilize the rays of the sun for getting their sustenance. And, of course, it is conceivable that the vegetation would have a proper nervous system, so they would have the ability to think (but not to feel pain), and become true individuals. No, blood, no suffering. Maybe not as exciting as seeing a carivore rip the belly of a herbivore.

 

[tonyrey]

While in the moment of him hating and tormenting me, I might experience extraordinary animosity, upon reflection, I doubt that I would wish eternal damnation on even my most bitter of enemies. Thank God I am not capable of such infinite hate.

The boot is on the other foot! God never ceases to love us but respects our freedom to reject Him…

 

[tonyrey]

But there is no logical necessity for a “food chain”. The whole population could be composed of vegetation, where all beings utilize the rays of the sun for getting their sustenance. And, of course, it is conceivable that the vegetation would have a proper nervous system, so they would have the ability to think (but not to feel pain), and become true individuals. No, blood, no suffering. Maybe not as exciting as seeing a carivore rip the belly of a herbivore.

Then you agree with Schopenhauer it would be far better if life had never existed on this planet? (He was referring to all life not just an arbitrary selection… )

 

[Viewscreen]

Once again, your perspective is very interesting! I have one proposal for your consideration. Please consider the following concept:
Given that as long as there is the need for a food chain on planet earth, there will always be pain and suffering on earth.
Therefore, earth is a place where there is always pain and suffering OR earth is a place of eternal torment, which as defined by you is hell.

Would you agree with this line of thinking?

Earth is a place of both intermittent pain and enjoyment, by turns. Although perhaps, if all of us were animals with eternal souls that kept coming back again and again to this earth, we would get sick of such an existence and call it hell, I still would not describe such a hell in the same terms as the Catholic Church teaches about an “outer darkness” where everything is separate from everything else. The former type of hell, though insane perhaps, (or perhaps just a *circle of life *deal which we all have to accept, per the Lion King ) is still less offensive than the hell outlined in your scriptures or theological theories.

 

[Viewscreen]

The boot is on the other foot! God never ceases to love us but respects our freedom to reject Him…

Yes, I reject the cultural, ruthless, egotistical God of ancient nomads. I reject the judgmentalism of such a God and his need to vent his “wrath.” I reject his ersatz holiness and boring “morality.”

I reject many of those things, but I never once feel as though I am rejecting the true God. Maybe it’s just me.

 

[jochoa]

Why should we forget about heaven? That was the the main topic of our conversation. As to your questions, the answer is obvious. Of course I want the best for them and also for everyone else.

Please consider the following:
Regarding why forget about heaven
Your current understanding of heaven falls short of the amazing glory of heaven. Thus, it leads you to believe heaven is boring. Thus, you would prefer non-existence or a hellish existence over heaven.
Since a misconception is the err, simply do not consider it, and instead only consider your future while living.

Regarding the answer being obvious
Can you recognize that the greatest peace and happiness any of your family or friends can experience is limitless happiness with unbreakable peace?
If you can recognize it, do you want your family and friends to be able to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace?

Fine. So maybe you want to amend your previous answer, when yo usaid that you have been on that lakeshore.

Please consider the following: there is no need for me to amend my answer, I am telling you the truth. I am on the lakeshore, though I have not made it to the lake. The key to recognize this is found in definition. Hence, “Who do you say God/Jesus/The Holy Trinity/The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is?” If your definition is incomplete, you cannot recognize how much closer to the lakeshore you are than you think.

…but no amount of personal conviction or testimony is worth an iota of hard, physical evidence, which is (of course) never forthcoming.

You should try to recognize the hard physical evidence in how, paraphrased, you stated “you obviously want your family and friends to experience greater peace and greater happiness in the day to come.”

The reason this is obvious is because it is part of the Law written on your heart!

I would love to live as long as I wish (as a healthy and young 28 years old) with a healthy and well working mind… probably after a few millenia, I might get weary of existence, who knows? In the meantime, I would be happy to lead a varied lifestyle, reading many books, visiting innumerable places, playing many games, participating in a lot of discussions… etc… etc… now that would be appealing.

Please consider two concepts:

1. If you live for any amount of time less than forever, you cannot visit a countless number of places.
2. Although there will be harp-playing “syrupy” existence in heaven, especially considering playing the harp is one of the many games to play, and the depiction is partly accurate, however, it is not complete, in that, there is more to heaven than only harp-playing “syrupy” existence in beautiful cathedrals, and you have mentioned of few of the other things to do.

Thank you very much for the discussion! You are helping me grow tremendously in perspective!

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, I reject the cultural, ruthless, egotistical God of ancient nomads. I reject the judgmentalism of such a God and his need to vent his “wrath.” I reject his ersatz holiness and boring “morality.”

I reject many of those things, but I never once feel as though I am rejecting the true God. Maybe it’s just me.

I share your view!

 

[Trurl]

Your current understanding of heaven falls short of the amazing glory of heaven. Thus, it leads you to believe heaven is boring.

No one has any positive knowledge about heaven. It is all speculation.

Can you recognize that the greatest peace and happiness any of your family or friends can experience is limitless happiness with unbreakable peace?

Anything what is that “monotonous” is horrible.

Please consider the following: there is no need for me to amend my answer, I am telling you the truth. I am on the lakeshore, though I have not made it to the lake.

Haha. I meant by the “lakeshore”, that you could experience the water, touch it, drink it… you took it too verbatim.

The reason this is obvious is because it is part of the Law written on your heart!

Sorry my friend, that aphorism is not true, and it is also pretty boring by now… and I heard it only a few hundred times, not even close to “infinitely many times”.

Please consider two concepts:

1. If you live for any amount of time less than forever, you cannot visit a countless number of places.
2. Although there will be harp-playing “syrupy” existence in heaven, especially considering playing the harp is one of the many games to play, and the depiction is partly accurate, however, it is not complete, in that, there is more to heaven than only harp-playing “syrupy” existence in beautiful cathedrals, and you have mentioned of few of the other things to do.

The trouble is that you are in the dark exactly as much as I am. The traditonal “teaching” is that we are “basking” in God’s love, and we are unable and unwilling to think about anything else. There is no “concensus” on heaven. Anyone can make up what they wish. But the “traditional” view is simple and boring as hell - pun inteded. If heaven would be as I envision it, of course I would choose it… but my view might be different from other people’s view - so there would be as many “copies” of heaven as there would be people. And to be serious, if there would be some people who would be tortured forever for such an negligible act as having has ONE unrepented masturbation… then I would start a revolt to “dethrone” God for being the most evil being ever imagined.

 

[jochoa]

But there is no logical necessity for a “food chain”.

Interesting thought, my friend! Since you are claiming, “there is no logical necessity for a “food chain”,” then you must know the purpose of God for creating which will reveal to me why there is no logical necessity for a “food chain.” Would you please share the purpose of God for creating?

 

[Trurl]

jochoa:

Interesting thought, my friend! Since you are claiming, “there is no logical necessity for a “food chain”,” then you must know the purpose of God for creating which will reveal to me why there is no logical necessity for a “food chain.” Would you please share the purpose of God for creating?

Haha! You know that I do not believe in God, so I am not interested in speculating about his “imaginary purpose” for creating the nervous system with pain receptors. The lack of logical necessity to have a “food chain” is a biological fact. Animals with pain receptors arrived much later on the scene than vegetation. The nervous system which enables “discursive thinking” is not dependent upon the existence of the pain receptors. So it is logically possible to have intelligent, thinking trees and bushes. And since these only rely on the energy of sun, the conclusion is that the pain and suffering stemming from the concept of a “food chain” is not a logical necessity. Since God is only unable to create logically contradictory states of affairs, he could have avoided the whole “food chain”.