If Hell exists, Having Children Is Evil

[ProdglArchitect]

Let me try to be more clear. I am not advocating the Albigensian heresy.

I am trying to highlight one of the logical and ethical consequences of belief in an everlasting hell.

You are failing. You’ve not pointed out anything that hasn’t been discussed and addressed numerous times throughout history.

If one believes that there is such a thing as everlasting hell, then it is immoral to have children. The reason this is so, is because there is a chance that one’s children will end up in hell.

I, and others, have already shown how this is not true. We’ve shown it clearly and you’ve not offered any contrary points to what we’ve written.

If I knew for certain that my potential children would certainly go to hell, then it would be absolutely wrong to have them, since their existence in eternal torment outweighs any potential good, in my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong, and contrary to EVERYHTING God has commanded of us. Furthermore, you cannot know a child will go to hell since you are not omniscient. This is imprudent conjecture because you cannot know the future, period. It is impossible for you, short of divine revelation, to know the ultimate outcome of your child’s life. Your entire thought argument is built on a wholly impossible premise.

I don’t know for certain if my potential children would go to hell, but there would be some amount of risk that they would go to hell and be tormented forever. This risk is enough to justify not having them in my opinion. I think it would be better not to expose them to the potentiality of eternal torment. No amount of good could possibly outweigh that risk.

Again, your personal opinion, and one which is completely out of line with Christ’s teachings and his Church; and one which we have shown to be faulty. You are just too prideful to acknowledge that you are wrong.

Yes, I accept that this means that it was wrong for God to create us (given eternal hell).

This is basically the most extreme blasphemy you could possibly commit… To call God’s very act of creation evil is… I don’t even have words.

I embrace this logical consequence because it shows that eternal hell makes life seem evil and God seem cruel. I think life is good, and that God is by no means cruel, and therefore cannot believe in eternal hell.

This is wholly and completely contrary to the words of our Lord, who spoke of the eternal fires of Hell more often than any other subject. You cannot claim to believe in Christ, to believe in his Word, and yet claim that there is no Hell. It is a completely untenable position to hold, and one which is easily refuted by even the most simplistic and cursory reading of scripture.

To put it as bluntly as I can, you are wrong. Don’t take my word for it, takes the words of our Lord. It’s there in the Gospels; I’d wager there’s not a single piece of Christian belief that has more Biblical and extra-Biblical support than the reality of an eternal Hell.

The whole point of this thread is to expose a serious problem for those who hold a belief in eternal hell. Some of you do not believe this is a serious problem, but I don’t understand why not?

If someone can prove to me that it isn’t wrong to expose a person to potential eternal damnation, I will change my mind.

We have refuted all of these points more than once in this thread already. If you honestly thing it was wrong for God to create us then you have far deeper spiritual problems than this faulty bit of logic.

You are also operating off the faulty premise that a person being in Hell is “bad” or "evil. This is an understandable premise from our human position, but ultimately it is faulty. If someone is in Hell, that is a good thing because it is what they chose for themselves. From our perspective this may seem cruel, but it is the ultimate expression of the freedom our culture is so in love with. You want to live as if there is no God, okay, God will allow you to live eternally as if there is no God; that’s what Hell is, the complete and utter absence of God. You cannot call it evil for God to give people what they seek. It would be evil for God to override our wills because it would violate his own nature, which gave us those will freely.

It sucks, and I pity people who are in Hell. But you cannot call it Evil, since it is freely chosen by the individual. If God arbitrarily put people in Hell then that’d be a different story, but he doesn’t.

You have not exposed any problem, except for the fact that you have a poorly underdeveloped sense of the nature of God and the nature of salvation. We have pointed out to you numerous ways your logic is faulty, but you refuse to listen to any of them. Your pride is excessive, and I highly suggest you sit down and speak with a well-learned priest on the subject. You could also call the apologist hotline here at Catholic Answers.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

People aren’t thinking about whether their child will go to Hell when they have a child. How goofy.

And why not? Could you live with yourself if your children ended up in hell? Wouldn’t that be the worst thing imaginable?

Don’t you want the best for your children? Don’t you want them to be happy and have a good life? But, by having them, you are opening up the possibility that they will be tortured forever. Isn’t that too much of a risk to take?

 

[Zachary]

And why not? Could you live with yourself if your children ended up in hell? Wouldn’t that be the worst thing imaginable?

Don’t you want the best for your children? Don’t you want them to be happy and have a good life? But, by having them, you are opening up the possibility that they will be tortured forever. Isn’t that too much of a risk to take?

Are you, therefore, by your own definition, evil since you are trying to convince us to disregard the words and direction of God? You want us to believe that God is evil and that His asking us to have children is evil. If we do, we are going contrary to His command/desire for us and put our souls at risk and, since we do so on your “evil” advice, you are evil.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

And why not? Could you live with yourself if your children ended up in hell? Wouldn’t that be the worst thing imaginable?

No, the worst thing imaginable would be for you to end up in Hell. Your ultimate concern is with your own soul, not your children’s souls. You have an obligation to guide them towards God, but their ultimate fate is up to them, not you.

Don’t you want the best for your children? Don’t you want them to be happy and have a good life? But, by having them, you are opening up the possibility that they will be tortured forever. Isn’t that too much of a risk to take?

No, it’s not; and it’s contrary to God’s commands. God desires that we bring children into the world, he literally told us so himself, in no uncertain terms. The risk of hell or the potential of salvation are inconsequential next to the direct commands of our creator.

Seriously, you need to talk to a priest. Spend some time in front of the blessed sacrament. You are engaged in a grave heresy, one which has already been denounced by the Church. Put aside your pride and seek spiritual aide and development.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You ignore the other side of the coin. Your own argument should convince you to change your mind. You claim to be appealing to logic to make your case but you aren’t extending your logic to its logical conclusion.

If, as you’ve stated, it is evil to expose another human being to the possibility of eternal (perfect) damnation (by having children and “chance”) then it must follow that it is good to expose another person to the possibility to eternal (perfect) heaven (by having children and “chance.”) Therefore, having children is both perfectly evil and good. And your argument collapses.

I can’t tell if you’re trying to convince yourself to not have children or if you are honestly trying to present a dilemma (which, for all intents and purposes, is incompatible with God as revealed to the Church) in the hopes of steering Christians from God. I hope it’s neither.

Now, if you were arguing that having children AND directly teaching them to reject God I would agree that such action would be evil. But merely having a baby, which is a natural, healthy and “good” act is not the same thing.

Good, I was hoping someone would bring this up. Yes, it is possible the the children will go to heaven, however, it would seem that the risk outweighs the benefit. Consider:

If I never existed, I would gain and lose nothing. My life would be just simply nothingness. No loss, no gain. (0)

If I exist and go to hell, I would lose not just everything, but would experience infinite loss. Simply dying, I would lose everything, and one could say life is worth it because I may have had some good experiences in life and it is a net gain overall. However, dying and going to hell is such a tremendous evil it boggles the mind. By no means is life worth living in that case, in my opinion. (- infinity)

If I exist and go to heaven, I would gain everything. (+ infinity)

However, I do not know what my children will choose, and so to expose them to the risk of infinite loss seems wrong. Yes, I would also be exposing them to the possibility of infinite gain, but the consequences of failing to get the infinite gain are so horrific, that I don’t think it is responsible to expose anyone to this situation.

Imagine if you were choosing a school for your child. When interviewing the principal of the school, the conversation goes like this:

You: So tell me about your school, and the outcomes for graduates.

Principal: A few of our students go on to become very successful leaders in business, politics, and the arts. They are all doing so well and we’re very proud of them. They studied hard and followed all the rules, isn’t that great?

You: Yes, that sounds great, but what happens to the rest of the graduates?

Principal: They’re in the basement where they endlessly torture themselves and each other non-stop for the rest of their lives. We keep them alive in order to make sure the pain of their torture doesn’t completely destroy them.

You: Wow, that sounds horrible, are you insane?

Principal: No, each of the students in the basement are there because they deserve it and freely choose it. So, that makes it OK. As soon as you are ready, we can sign the paperwork and your kids can start tomorrow! Oh by the way, once they sign up they can never leave the school unless they graduate or go to the basement. If the kids attempt to leave, armed guards will escort them to the basement. Oh, and no one can ever get out of the basement once they’re there, ever.

Would you want your kids to go to this school? I submit that the only people who would sign their kids up for this school are those who are absolutely certain that their kids are “special” and for sure not going to end up in the basement. I think, if there is even the slightest doubt that the children would graduate, then it would be insane and evil to send the children to that school.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And why not? Could you live with yourself if your children ended up in hell? Wouldn’t that be the worst thing imaginable?

Don’t you want the best for your children? Don’t you want them to be happy and have a good life? But, by having them, you are opening up the possibility that they will be tortured forever. Isn’t that too much of a risk to take?

For one thing, most babies aren’t planned. For another, children usually outlive their parents so having to live with yourself if your child went to Hell is a weird concept. In any case, no one really knows who gets into Hell or Heaven, only God knows that.

Now if my child turned out to be a bad egg, a serial killer or a child molester, to name a few horrible things people turn into, then yes, I would be very upset. Hell on earth is very visible to all of us.

But it is not too big of a risk to take. Most children bring joy to their parents, and turn out to be good people. For the few who don’t, I am sorry, but it is not too big of a risk to take. As so many have pointed out, there is free will involved here. We can’t shelter our children from themselves or the big bad world once they grow up.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Good, I was hoping someone would bring this up. Yes, it is possible the the children will go to heaven, however, it would seem that the risk outweighs the benefit. Consider:

If I never existed, I would gain and lose nothing. My life would be just simply nothingness. No loss, no gain. (0)

If I exist and go to hell, I would lose not just everything, but would experience infinite loss. Simply dying, I would lose everything, and one could say life is worth it because I may have had some good experiences in life and it is a net gain overall. However, dying and going to hell is such a tremendous evil it boggles the mind. By no means is life worth living in that case, in my opinion. (- infinity)

If I exist and go to heaven, I would gain everything. (+ infinity)

However, I do not know what my children will choose, and so to expose them to the risk of infinite loss seems wrong. Yes, I would also be exposing them to the possibility of infinite gain, but the consequences of failing to get the infinite gain are so horrific, that I don’t think it is responsible to expose anyone to this situation.

Imagine if you were choosing a school for your child. When interviewing the principal of the school, the conversation goes like this:

You: So tell me about your school, and the outcomes for graduates.

Principal: A few of our students go on to become very successful leaders in business, politics, and the arts. They are all doing so well and we’re very proud of them. They studied hard and followed all the rules, isn’t that great?

You: Yes, that sounds great, but what happens to the rest of the graduates?

Principal: They’re in the basement where they endlessly torture themselves and each other non-stop for the rest of their lives. We keep them alive in order to make sure the pain of their torture doesn’t completely destroy them.

You: Wow, that sounds horrible, are you insane?

Principal: No, each of the students in the basement are there because they deserve it and freely choose it. So, that makes it OK. As soon as you are ready, we can sign the paperwork and your kids can start tomorrow! Oh by the way, once they sign up they can never leave the school unless they graduate or go to the basement. If the kids attempt to leave, armed guards will escort them to the basement. Oh, and no one can ever get out of the basement once they’re there, ever.

Would you want your kids to go to this school? I submit that the only people who would sign their kids up for this school are those who are absolutely certain that their kids are “special” and for sure not going to end up in the basement. I think, if there is even the slightest doubt that the children would graduate, then it would be insane and evil to send the children to that school.

This entire scenario ignores the fact that God LITERALLY GAVE US A ROADMAP for getting to heaven. All you have to do is be willing to submit to Him. It’s written into our souls. That’d be like the teacher giving every student the answers to every problem ever assigned, all they have to do is write it down. If they refuse to write it down, then they fail the class and suffer the consequences for their inaction. Your scenario also does not account for the infinite number of times God s willing to forgive us in our life.

One again, your analogy ignores several realities associated with salvation in an attempt to make your position seem more correct. This is a common method of debate, but does not accurately present the problem being discussed. It is intellectually dishonest.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You are failing. You’ve not pointed out anything that hasn’t been discussed and addressed numerous times throughout history. I, and others, have already shown how this is not true. We’ve shown it clearly and you’ve not offered any contrary points to what we’ve written.

I’m not sure this is true. I’m looking for something very specific. Why is it morally right
to have children knowing there is a chance that they will be tortured in hell forever and ever?

Your opinion is wrong, and contrary to EVERYHTING God has commanded of us. Furthermore, you cannot know a child will go to hell since you are not omniscient. This is imprudent conjecture because you cannot know the future, period. It is impossible for you, short of divine revelation, to know the ultimate outcome of your child’s life. Your entire thought argument is built on a wholly impossible premise.

I don’t know what you mean by imprudent conjecture. I simply posited that it would be wrong to have children if one knew with certainty that they would go to hell, since their lives would be a horrific loss in that case. I do not dispute that it is impossible for us to have this kind of knowledge (although God does.) Just trying to give a possibility to demonstrate the problem.

Again, your personal opinion, and one which is completely out of line with Christ’s teachings and his Church; and one which we have shown to be faulty. You are just too prideful to acknowledge that you are wrong.
This is basically the most extreme blasphemy you could possibly commit… To call God’s very act of creation evil is… I don’t even have words.

Calm down friend I am not here to dishonor God or upset you. Although, I do think this problem is quite illuminating. Consider, would you be so upset if this were truly just the idle musings of an ignorant, prideful fool? I have no doubt that I am both ignorant and prideful, but nonetheless maybe this is a true issue?

This is wholly and completely contrary to the words of our Lord, who spoke of the eternal fires of Hell more often than any other subject. You cannot claim to believe in Christ, to believe in his Word, and yet claim that there is no Hell. It is a completely untenable position to hold, and one which is easily refuted by even the most simplistic and cursory reading of scripture.

To put it as bluntly as I can, you are wrong. Don’t take my word for it, takes the words of our Lord. It’s there in the Gospels; I’d wager there’s not a single piece of Christian belief that has more Biblical and extra-Biblical support than the reality of an eternal Hell.

Yes, I no longer believe in the new testament, that Jesus was the Christ, or the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, if one were to have such a strong commitment to the reality of eternal hell, I think it causes several problems for the believer. One of which, is whether or not it is morally acceptable to have children knowing that there is a chance they could end up being tortured forever and ever. Why is this not a problem?

We have refuted all of these points more than once in this thread already. If you honestly thing it was wrong for God to create us then you have far deeper spiritual problems than this faulty bit of logic.

I think it would have been wrong for God to create us if there is such a thing as eternal hell. Hell is the blasphemy against God’s goodness, justice, and beauty, in my opinion. However, I no longer think that eternal hell exists and therefore have no issue.

You are also operating off the faulty premise that a person being in Hell is “bad” or "evil. This is an understandable premise from our human position, but ultimately it is faulty. If someone is in Hell, that is a good thing because it is what they chose for themselves.

I think this speaks for itself. :ehh:

It sucks, and I pity people who are in Hell. But you cannot call it Evil, since it is freely chosen by the individual. If God arbitrarily put people in Hell then that’d be a different story, but he doesn’t.

But…if hell is “a good thing” then how can it also “suck” and why do you “pity people who are in Hell?”

You have not exposed any problem, except for the fact that you have a poorly underdeveloped sense of the nature of God and the nature of salvation. We have pointed out to you numerous ways your logic is faulty, but you refuse to listen to any of them. Your pride is excessive, and I highly suggest you sit down and speak with a well-learned priest on the subject. You could also call the apologist hotline here at Catholic Answers.

You know, whenever I contact priests, theologians, bishops, and Catholic Answers I’m turned away. They meet with me once and seem to give up. All I do is ask questions and listen for answers. No one likes to discuss this subject so I have to go to online forums to see if I can get a solid answer. I’m not absolutely certain the RCC doesn’t have the “fullness of truth” so that is why I think I am obligated to examine it as closely and fully as possible. Thanks for helping me.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

This entire scenario ignores the fact that God LITERALLY GAVE US A ROADMAP for getting to heaven. All you have to do is be willing to submit to Him. It’s written into our souls. That’d be like the teacher giving every student the answers to every problem ever assigned, all they have to do is write it down. If they refuse to write it down, then they fail the class and suffer the consequences for their inaction. Your scenario also does not account for the infinite number of times God s willing to forgive us in our life.

One again, your analogy ignores several realities associated with salvation in an attempt to make your position seem more correct. This is a common method of debate, but does not accurately present the problem being discussed. It is intellectually dishonest.

I am not intentionally being intellectually dishonest. It seems like, on your view, more of the conversation would go like this:

You: But, how can I make sure that my children don’t end up in the basement?

Principal: Well, here at this school we give the kids all the answers. All they have to do is write them down, so it is very easy to get good grades. Also, we only send them to the basement as a final option. We tell them all the rules and give them a lot of chances to break the rules and say they’re sorry so they can avoid the basement.

You: OK sure I feel better about that. But, why are there any children in the basement then? I can hear them screaming from here. If it is so easy to graduate from your school, why do so many fail? I think I heard that your founder said most of the students won’t graduate because “the way is hard” or something like that? What’s that about?

Principal: Well, even though it is very easy to graduate from this school, apparently most children just don’t want to and would prefer to torture themselves endlessly in the basement. That’s OK though because the basement is the ultimate expression of their freedom.

You: But why wouldn’t you just let them out of the basement or kick them out of the school? It doesn’t sound like freedom to be tortured endlessly, even if it is self-inflicted.

Principal: …this is where I need help]

 

[Zachary]

Being conceived has no bearing on your salvation. You lose right off the bat.

You have been SOUNDLY defeated. If you’re serious about understanding the opposition, I suggest you stop trying to wiggle out of your own traps. We’ve clearly demonstrated how to get out of the pit you’ve flung yourself into. It’s up to you to take our advice and climb the ladder or to pretend the ladder doesn’t exist.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Being conceived has no bearing on your salvation. You lose right off the bat.

You have been SOUNDLY defeated. If you’re serious about understanding the opposition, I suggest you stop trying to wiggle out of your own traps. We’ve clearly demonstrated how to get out of the pit you’ve flung yourself into. It’s up to you to take our advice and climb the ladder or to pretend the ladder doesn’t exist.

Isn’t being conceived a necessary condition for human existence? Isn’t human existence a necessary condition for salvation or its opposite? Isn’t human choice often the cause of conception? Are we therefore not at least partially responsible for our children’s salvation (or damnation) since we chose to bring them into existence?

Can you please explain to me, very carefully, why this isn’t so? I am having a hard time understanding.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m not sure this is true. I’m looking for something very specific. Why is it morally right
to have children knowing there is a chance that they will be tortured in hell forever and ever?

it is morally right because God commands it of us, and God would not command us to engage in a moral evil. God is rational and consistent, and therefore cannot act against his own nature. Since his nature is good, he cannot command us to do anything that is not good.

I don’t know what you mean by imprudent conjecture. I simply posited that it would be wrong to have children if one knew with certainty that they would go to hell, since their lives would be a horrific loss in that case. I do not dispute that it is impossible for us to have this kind of knowledge (although God does.) Just trying to give a possibility to demonstrate the problem.

Your demonstration has to be reasonable though, which it is not. It’s conclusion relies on something which is impossible to arrive at a conclusion, so a rational conclusion cannot be arrived at.

Calm down friend I am not here to dishonor God or upset you. Although, I do think this problem is quite illuminating. Consider, would you be so upset if this were truly just the idle musings of an ignorant, prideful fool? I have no doubt that I am both ignorant and prideful, but nonetheless maybe this is a true issue?

I am not upset because of your argument, I am upset because calling God’s act of creation evil is contrary to every fiber of my being and belief, and I cannot understand how you, who profess to believe that God is good, can state something like that.

Yes, I no longer believe in the new testament, that Jesus was the Christ, or the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, if one were to have such a strong commitment to the reality of eternal hell, I think it causes several problems for the believer. One of which, is whether or not it is morally acceptable to have children knowing that there is a chance they could end up being tortured forever and ever. Why is this not a problem?

Even if you do not accept the reality of Christ’s divnity and sonship, the OT has plenty of evidence wich points to the existence of an eternal separation from God. This article goes into a couple of the more direct proofs.

It is not immoral because you do not will them to go to Hell. In order for an act to be sinful, the will must be involved. If I had a child with the explicit intention of directing them towards Hell, then it would be immoral to have them. If, on the other hand, my intention is to direct them towards God, then it is absolutely moral of me to have children (with my wife, of course)

It is not a problem because it is ultimately their choice. It is not forced on them, it is not determined arbitrarily, it is the sum result of every choice they make in their lives.

A question to you. How is it moral for God to override our free will to suit his own? If a person does not want to be with God, how could it be considered moral to force them to be? We describe Hell as torture and suffering, but in reality the chief pain of Hell is the complete absence of God. That absence is one which a person chooses.

You cannot believe in a God that gives us free will to chose for or against him in life, while simultaneously believing that God will not respect our free will and allow us to chose to be with him or separated from him. It would be logically inconsistent to give us free will while simultaneously rendering that free will meaningless. since we believe that God is logically consistent, this is an impossible position to hold.

If a person spends their life choosing to separate themselves from God, then God will accept that choice. The possibility of that end result has no affect on whether or not the creation of new life is moral or immoral. I really don’t think I can’t state it any plainer. God said that creating new life is good, so claiming that the potential for a negative outcome to that life overrides God’s direct command is contrary to both the New and Old Testaments.

I think it would have been wrong for God to create us if there is such a thing as eternal hell. Hell is the blasphemy against God’s goodness, justice, and beauty, in my opinion. However, I no longer think that eternal hell exists and therefore have no issue.

I’ve already addressed this. Hell is an absolute reality, the direct result of free will. It would be logically inconsistent to give us free will while simultaneously rendering that free will meaningless. Therefore, it is necessary to conclude that God has provisions for both a will directed towards him, and a will directed away from him. If there is only the option to be directed towards him, then there is no free will. Incidentally, the notion of the destruction of souls is also logically inconsistent because it violates the eternal nature of the souls which God creates.

I think this speaks for itself. :ehh:

It does. The existence of Hell is a positive thing, because it shows us that God loves us enough to respect our decisions in regards to Him. You cannot force someone to love you, and since Heaven is becoming part of the limitless and eternal love of God, you cannot force someone to be in Heaven.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But…if hell is “a good thing” then how can it also “suck” and why do you “pity people who are in Hell?”

It sucks and I pity them because there is something so much better for them, if only they had been willing to accept it. The fact that we want to be with God, and therefore pity people who don’t, doesn’t change the fact that those people don’t want to be with God.

You know, whenever I contact priests, theologians, bishops, and Catholic Answers I’m turned away. They meet with me once and seem to give up. All I do is ask questions and listen for answers. No one likes to discuss this subject so I have to go to online forums to see if I can get a solid answer. I’m not absolutely certain the RCC doesn’t have the “fullness of truth” so that is why I think I am obligated to examine it as closely and fully as possible. Thanks for helping me.

How many times have you tried? Perhaps you should contact Jimmy Akin or Tim Staples directly. I believe their emails are on the website, and I’m told they always respond to emails. It may take a while, but they try to get to every question that’s posed to them.

On a similar note, if you are truly interested in studying this question, Jimmy Akin recently released a new book called “The Drama of Salvation.” It may touch on the subject.

The final answer that I can give to your question is this:

God is a logical, rational being who gave us free will.
This free will can be directed towards or against God.
Since God is logically rational, he would not give us something that would ultimately be meaningless.
Since free will cannot be meaningless, it is necessary that both potentials be accounted for. (These potentials being "I choose for God’ or “I choose against God.”)
Since a person can chose to be apart from God, it is necessary that there is some form of existence which is apart from God; otherwise God would violate his own rationality by violating our free wills.

I literally cannot state it any more straight forward than that.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . to be tortured endlessly, . . . …this is where I need help]

Some people have no shame. I recall going to a concert many years ago and seeing a certain individual who had been caught embezzling millions from, let’s call it, a trust fund. There were many elderly people who were left impoverished when they could no longer rebuild. I saw him standing and gazing about the auditorium. Whereas I felt like burying myself in the deepest hole, identifying with his situation, he appeared to be almost basking in the attention. He gave every indication of not having the slightest qualm about what he had done. How does one communicate the horror of what this individual did, but to use terms that he might understand such as fire, pain, torture. He does not care about the harm he has brought into the world and would resent any attempt to make him face who he is in reality.
We create ourselves through our actions. What we do exists eternally in God’s view. We have the opportunity to repent. The Word has takes on our punishment and through Him we can be saved.
As far as I understand, there is not much in the hell into which I would be cast, that I have not given up, that I have not left behind. The shame and guilt, the wicked things I have done are realities that cannot be undone, only forgiven.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I am not intentionally being intellectually dishonest. It seems like, on your view, more of the conversation would go like this:

You: But, how can I make sure that my children don’t end up in the basement?

Principal: Well, here at this school we give the kids all the answers. All they have to do is write them down, so it is very easy to get good grades. Also, we only send them to the basement as a final option. We tell them all the rules and give them a lot of chances to break the rules and say they’re sorry so they can avoid the basement.

You: OK sure I feel better about that. But, why are there any children in the basement then? I can hear them screaming from here. If it is so easy to graduate from your school, why do so many fail? I think I heard that your founder said most of the students won’t graduate because “the way is hard” or something like that? What’s that about?

Principal: Well, even though it is very easy to graduate from this school, apparently most children just don’t want to and would prefer to torture themselves endlessly in the basement. That’s OK though because the basement is the ultimate expression of their freedom.

You: But why wouldn’t you just let them out of the basement or kick them out of the school? It doesn’t sound like freedom to be tortured endlessly, even if it is self-inflicted.

Principal: …this is where I need help]

The problem with this analogy (or, another problem with this analogy) is that it ignores the will of the children. In your analogy the children are “put in the basement” by an external force. This does not properly reflect the reality of Hell. When a person goes to Hell, they send themselves there, they are there of their own free will.

Even if the metaphorical gates of Hell were wide open (which some theologians believe they are), no one would leave because they’ve all chosen to be there. For the ones who outright reject God, they are there because they’d rather suffer the pains of Hell than subject themselves to God’s authority. For those who are in Hell because they are great sinners, it is less painful to be in Hell than to be in the direct presence of God, constantly being convicted (which means made aware of) the full extent of the pain their sins inflicted on our Lord and Creator. Everyone in Hell falls into one of these two categories, which means that everyone who is in Hell is there because they’d rather be there than in the Lord’s presence.

To frame it in your analogy, it would be something like: The children, realizing that they’d refused the help so freely given to them, ran to the basement to hide from the teacher, lest the remember what they rejected every time they see her. They will never come up for fear of seeing that teacher again, or for fear of having to acknowledge that the teacher knew better than them when she tried to help them. (It’s hard to frame it in your analogy, but I tried.)

 

[DCNBILL]

Good, I was hoping someone would bring this up. Yes, it is possible the the children will go to heaven, however, it would seem that the risk outweighs the benefit. Consider:

If I never existed, I would gain and lose nothing. My life would be just simply nothingness. No loss, no gain. (0)

If I exist and go to hell, I would lose not just everything, but would experience infinite loss. Simply dying, I would lose everything, and one could say life is worth it because I may have had some good experiences in life and it is a net gain overall. However, dying and going to hell is such a tremendous evil it boggles the mind. By no means is life worth living in that case, in my opinion. (- infinity)

What exactly do you mean by these highlighted statements?

Hell is the eternal separation from God, freely chosen, freely given. This has been pointed out to you numerous times.

This may be why people react to you the way that they do. You may ask the questions that you want answered but you do not listen to the answers.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

What exactly do you mean by these highlighted statements?

Hell is the eternal separation from God, freely chosen, freely given. This has been pointed out to you numerous times.

This may be why people react to you the way that they do. You may ask the questions that you want answered but you do not listen to the answers.

AMEN!!!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

What exactly do you mean by these highlighted statements?

Hell is the eternal separation from God, freely chosen, freely given. This has been pointed out to you numerous times.

This may be why people react to you the way that they do. You may ask the questions that you want answered but you do not listen to the answers.

I’m pretty much done with this thread. I’ve answered your questions repeatedly, and you have not written anything of substance in rebuttal. You refuse to address the fact that your entire argument falls apart if Hell is something freely chosen. You repeat your arguments over and over again as if repeating them somehow gives them new merit, even if they’ve been thoroughly rebutted. This is no longer a debate or a discourse, it is a record playing on repeat.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Does something being freely chosen make it right?

I have other stuff to take care of right now but I will be back later. Please no one do anything which would cause this thread to be censored. Thanks!

 

[DCNBILL]

Does something being freely chosen make it right?

I have other stuff to take care of right now but I will be back later. Please no one do anything which would cause this thread to be censored. Thanks!

No, but it does make it what you want.