If Hell exists, Having Children Is Evil

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Again we really need a laughter emoticon. So I guess that’s it then. Problem solved. Glib retorts have solved the central crisis of Christian theology.
Sometimes glib retorts are warranted.

And they answer the question quite trenchantly.

For example: let’s say your teenage son asked you, “Why can’t I have a baby?”

A glib retort: “Because you don’t have a uterus”

is warranted, trenchant, and pithy.

#problemsolved
#whatmoreneedstobesaid
 
And yet, I get out of bed every morning with no issue. I’m about to work a 16 hour day with a smile on my face, like I do many days. You know why? Because I believe that life entails unavoidable and acceptable risks but also comes with valuable rewards. Sure, I could die in a car wreck today, or have a heart attack. That’s OK. It’s just temporary pain. Or, someone I love could get cancer, or I could become paralyzed. Again, temporary pain. Plus, now that I do exist, I can’t “get out of it” and I don’t want to because things are going great for me actually. I guess if my life became just unbearably awful like Job’s or something then I would wish for death, but I don’t so : ).

However, living one’s life on the brink of eternal doom is not an acceptable risk. It is unending suffering and torment.

If life is really like that, then I would be tempted to hide in my room all day and pray and fast in silence. Or, I would have to wear sackcloth and ashes and rove about the streets screaming “repent, repent, hell is knocking at your door!!” all day every day until I die from exhaustion. Those would be the only moral ways to live life, given the reality of hell and the RCC’s other teachings. Having children would be a horrendous crime and waste of time. Think of all the people already on their way to hell. To add to that while neglecting to try to save them would be evil.

Oh wait…the lives I just described are similar to the RCC’s greatest saints. Answer me this: how many of the great saints had children (that were not also “God incarnate”?)Can they be counted on one hand? Seems like this mode of thought isn’t so foreign to Roman Catholic belief now is it?
“living one’s life on the brink of *eternal doom” *is the direct consequence of not trusting in God’s love and mercy. It is better not to believe rather than have a distorted belief.
 
Again we really need a laughter emoticon. So I guess that’s it then. Problem solved. Glib retorts have solved the central crisis of Christian theology. I can’t respond but please don’t take my silence as abdication. I will be back tomorrow. Best, PC.
Here is one:rotfl:

Actually, the central crisis of Christian theology rests squarely on the shoulders of the informed unbeliever, these are the ones at risk.

Crisis = danger/opportunity
 
Again we really need a laughter emoticon. So I guess that’s it then. Problem solved. Glib retorts have solved the central crisis of Christian theology. I can’t respond but please don’t take my silence as abdication. I will be back tomorrow. Best, PC.
You think THIS is the “central crisis” that must be dealt with? 😊

So, to solidify Christian theology, we have to overcome having children… 🤷

I think you should open your mind and reread the thread. Stop the “ya-but” replies. All the answers are there.
 
…and even if it was evil to create a child stained by Original Sin into the world…BAPTISM!
 
Yes I agree. It would be horrible to run a school system the way the principal in my dialogue has set it up. Good thing our schools aren’t like that! However, the question is whether the universe is run by a thing like my principal. Some say my dialogue isn’t good enough and doesn’t fully describe the situation. I agree, and I would welcome someone else’s contribution. Is there a better analogy? I would be very happy if someone would offer one. Thanks!
A better analogy would be this:

Father and son have a falling out due to some reckless behavior on the part of the son. The son tells his father that he hates him and leaves. No matter how many times the father attempts to reach out to the son to mend the relationship, the son refuses. Over time, the father stops calling the son but still longs for his son. Others try to intercede, but the son’s hardness of heart keeps him from accepting his father’s love and forgiveness.

The father dies and the son is still not remorseful, and later the son dies without remorse.

This would be a good analogy.
 
You think THIS is the “central crisis” that must be dealt with? 😊

So, to solidify Christian theology, we have to overcome having children… 🤷

I think you should open your mind and reread the thread. Stop the “ya-but” replies. All the answers are there.
The central crisis of Christian theology is the claim that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God knowlingly creates those whom he has always and will always know will choose hell while freely sustaining their existence in eternal torment.

This is cruelty and insanity on its face. As you can see from thousands of posts, it requires difficult mental gymnastics to try to explain how one can hold both the proposition of a perfectly “good/just/loving/merciful/knowledgeable/beautiful/truthful” God and everlasting torment.

From one side of your mouth you tell me to open my mind and from the other to stop asking more questions? This seems to be at odds? It seems what you really want is for me to stop asking questions and just submit or something.

The problem is that I am not able to believe something that doesn’t make sense. I don’t get to choose what to believe, I must believe only that which I think is true.

One person on this thread has been able to show that it is not contradictory for God to be good and for hell to exist by calling hell “good.” Indeed, this same person affirmed that even if everyone in the world who has ever existed would go to hell, the world and God would still be “good.” You know who else would probably thinks that? Satan. So, on this view, the will of Satan and God are perfectly aligned where it matters most. They’re best friends and are helping each other out. On this view, Satan should be the greatest saint since he is helping accomplish God’s “good” will for most of humanity. Do you believe this also?

Further, what could “good” possibly mean if the definition encompasses universal endless torture? Seriously? :eek:

Further, who intuits that hell is “good?” I submit that only a truly corrupt, evil, and cruel person would consider hell as a “good.” Does anyone think torture on earth is a “good?” How many Roman Catholics oppose the death penalty, and yet they embrace eternal torment? What?
 
…and even if it was evil to create a child stained by Original Sin into the world…BAPTISM!
Does baptism “undo” free will? Much breath has been wasted by apologists attempting to justify hell by appealing to free will right? If one’s children are baptized, they may still “choose hell” and thus one is still exposing one’s children to the “more likely than not” risk of eternal torment. Further, it is said that baptized people will endure far worse torments in hell. On this view, it is even more evil to have children and then get them baptized since you will be exposing them to a risk of even worse eternal torment (if such a thing is even possible).
 
The central crisis of Christian theology is the claim that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God knowlingly creates those whom he has always and will always know will choose hell while freely sustaining their existence in eternal torment.
There is no knowing what someone “will choose” for God. There is only the Eternal Now.

And just as God is not responsible for my choice at this very minute, He’s also not responsible for my choice in 2025, 2035, 2045.

You think too linearly. Try to think in the abstract, Pumpkin.
 
Further, who intuits that hell is “good?” I submit that only a truly corrupt, evil, and cruel person would consider hell as a “good.” Does anyone think torture on earth is a “good?” How many Roman Catholics oppose the death penalty, and yet they embrace eternal torment? What?
No one ought to think torture is good.

But all people ought to think justice is good.

And in your world, Pumpkin, there is no justice for the person who drags his wife around by her hair because she burnt his toast.

In your world, life is simply unfair. Death gives an unfair advantage to all those really bad people who tortured people in this life.
 
“living one’s life on the brink of *eternal doom” *is the direct consequence of not trusting in God’s love and mercy. It is better not to believe rather than have a distorted belief.
No my friend, living one’s life on the brink of eternal doom is a direct consequence of existence. Existence is fundamental and prior to “will.” Your children are at risk, and so are you. So am I. So are all of us. We are all at risk that we will “choose hell” and be tortured forever and ever. If we are to believe the saints, popes, doctors, mystics, councils, visionaries, and Jesus himself, it is more likely than not we will “choose hell.”

The question is: is it right to force this situation upon another person?

The glib answer of “God says it is right so therefore it is” is unsatisfactory. This is an appeal to authority (namely all the teachings/interpretations of the RCC) that I (and most of our fellow human beings) do not accept as legitimate or truthful. In fact, I am here engaged in the project of exposing a contradiction and failure within that system to show that it isn’t self-consistent (and thus can’t be the truth), or requires the destruction of meaningful language, or the acceptance of radically counter-intuitive corollaries that are deeply ugly. One cannot appeal to the system I suspect is corrupt to justify the truth value of that system! This isn’t an effective means of convincing anyone other than those who already believe in the totality of the system and are OK calling obviously sinister contradictions “divine mysteries.”

Actually, my position is stronger than this to be honest. I actually think many of the RCC’s teachings are literally unbelievable in the sense that they can’t be held by a rational person. Part of my project here is to expose this to readers so they will begin to see that they don’t even actually believe what they think they believe. I submit that no one actually believes hell is justifiable, or that the Eucharist “changes substance,” or that the RCC “speaks with the voice of God.” RCC believers parrot the creed and go through the motions, but if only people would examine the beliefs in depth they would see that they can’t be held, in my opinion. I believe this because I had to confront the fact that I did not actually believe many of the things required for RC faith upon deep and serious study.

I now experience such a freedom and joy since discovering that many of the propositions required for belief are simply not true. I tried so hard to convince myself of the RCC’s beliefs but just haven’t been successful. I retain an element of doubt of course, but my purpose here is to draw out the best arguments to either confirm or disconfirm my hypothesis.

Secondarily, the glib response that “free-will makes it all OK” is also unacceptable. This is not a sufficient justification for hell, or more importantly for the choice to have children while holding the belief in the RCC’s version of hell, because we do not have the ability to know whether our children will “choose hell” and thus it is unconscionable to expose them to the the risk of infinite loss. I feel that I have explained this clearly but maybe I’ve failed.
 
No my friend, living one’s life on the brink of eternal doom is a direct consequence of existence. Existence is fundamental and prior to “will.” Your children are at risk, and so are you. So am I. So are all of us. We are all at risk that we will “choose hell” and be tortured forever and ever. If we are to believe the saints, popes, doctors, mystics, councils, visionaries, and Jesus himself, it is more likely than not we will “choose hell.”

The question is: is it right to force this situation upon another person?

The glib answer of “God says it is right so therefore it is” is unsatisfactory. This is an appeal to authority (namely all the teachings/interpretations of the RCC) that I (and most of our fellow human beings) do not accept as legitimate or truthful. In fact, I am here engaged in the project of exposing a contradiction and failure within that system to show that it isn’t self-consistent (and thus can’t be the truth), or requires the destruction of meaningful language, or the acceptance of radically counter-intuitive corollaries that are deeply ugly. One cannot appeal to the system I suspect is corrupt to justify the truth value of that system! This isn’t an effective means of convincing anyone other than those who already believe in the totality of the system and are OK calling obviously sinister contradictions “divine mysteries.”

Actually, my position is stronger than this to be honest. I actually think many of the RCC’s teachings are literally unbelievable in the sense that they can’t be held by a rational person. Part of my project here is to expose this to readers so they will begin to see that they don’t even actually believe what they think they believe. I submit that no one actually believes hell is justifiable, or that the Eucharist “changes substance,” or that the RCC “speaks with the voice of God.” RCC believers parrot the creed and go through the motions, but if only people would examine the beliefs in depth they would see that they can’t be held, in my opinion. I believe this because I had to confront the fact that I did not actually believe many of the things required for RC faith upon deep and serious study.

I now experience such a freedom and joy since discovering that many of the propositions required for belief are simply not true. I tried so hard to convince myself of the RCC’s beliefs but just haven’t been successful. I retain an element of doubt of course, but my purpose here is to draw out the best arguments to either confirm or disconfirm my hypothesis.

Secondarily, the glib response that “free-will makes it all OK” is also unacceptable. This is not a sufficient justification for hell, or more importantly for the choice to have children while holding the belief in the RCC’s version of hell, because we do not have the ability to know whether our children will “choose hell” and thus it is unconscionable to expose them to the the risk of infinite loss. I feel that I have explained this clearly but maybe I’ve failed.
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif
 
There is no knowing what someone “will choose” for God. There is only the Eternal Now.

And just as God is not responsible for my choice at this very minute, He’s also not responsible for my choice in 2025, 2035, 2045.

You think too linearly. Try to think in the abstract, Pumpkin.
Yes we ran into this before. I’m going to try to be as explicit as I can.

God is, always has been, and always will be at least partially responsible for all of your choices because he holds you in existence at all times. Also, his will is both immutable and totally sovereign. Your will and God’s will must be consonant or “synergistic” or else God is not truly omnipotent.

Whether you describe God’s knowledge as existing in the “eternal now” matters not. The point is that God has infallible knowledge of every outcome since he is experiencing all of time “now.”

I will address your analogy later. I am happy to use it, but have another long day of work. 🙂

Thanks for your effort to help me, I appreciate it.
 
No my friend, living one’s life on the brink of eternal doom is a direct consequence of existence. Existence is fundamental and prior to “will.” Your children are at risk, and so are you. So am I. So are all of us. We are all at risk that we will “choose hell” and be tortured forever and ever. If we are to believe the saints, popes, doctors, mystics, councils, visionaries, and Jesus himself, it is more likely than not we will “choose hell.”

The question is: is it right to force this situation upon another person?

The glib answer of “God says it is right so therefore it is” is unsatisfactory. This is an appeal to authority (namely all the teachings/interpretations of the RCC) that I (and most of our fellow human beings) do not accept as legitimate or truthful. In fact, I am here engaged in the project of exposing a contradiction and failure within that system to show that it isn’t self-consistent (and thus can’t be the truth), or requires the destruction of meaningful language, or the acceptance of radically counter-intuitive corollaries that are deeply ugly. One cannot appeal to the system I suspect is corrupt to justify the truth value of that system! This isn’t an effective means of convincing anyone other than those who already believe in the totality of the system and are OK calling obviously sinister contradictions “divine mysteries.”

Actually, my position is stronger than this to be honest. I actually think many of the RCC’s teachings are literally unbelievable in the sense that they can’t be held by a rational person. Part of my project here is to expose this to readers so they will begin to see that they don’t even actually believe what they think they believe. I submit that no one actually believes hell is justifiable, or that the Eucharist “changes substance,” or that the RCC “speaks with the voice of God.” RCC believers parrot the creed and go through the motions, but if only people would examine the beliefs in depth they would see that they can’t be held, in my opinion. I believe this because I had to confront the fact that I did not actually believe many of the things required for RC faith upon deep and serious study.

I now experience such a freedom and joy since discovering that many of the propositions required for belief are simply not true. I tried so hard to convince myself of the RCC’s beliefs but just haven’t been successful. I retain an element of doubt of course, but my purpose here is to draw out the best arguments to either confirm or disconfirm my hypothesis.

Secondarily, the glib response that “free-will makes it all OK” is also unacceptable. This is not a sufficient justification for hell, or more importantly for the choice to have children while holding the belief in the RCC’s version of hell, because we do not have the ability to know whether our children will “choose hell” and thus it is unconscionable to expose them to the the risk of infinite loss.** I feel that I have explained this clearly but maybe I’ve failed**.
That is because you are talking to believers who have experienced the risen Christ. The answer you are looking for is right at the center of the message of the Gospel.

The answer is Christian love, the giving of ones self for the other no mater the cost, the type of giving love that we see on the Crucifixes we wear and hang on our walls, that remind us of how much God loves us.
 
No one ought to think torture is good.

But all people ought to think justice is good.

And in your world, Pumpkin, there is no justice for the person who drags his wife around by her hair because she burnt his toast.

In your world, life is simply unfair. Death gives an unfair advantage to all those really bad people who tortured people in this life.
As I’ve said before, I believe in a final judgement. I believe this is warranted by reason and some of the Hebrew scriptures, which I do believe tell us something about the true God. I have no knowledge of precisely what that judgement entails, but I expect all will be settled fairly in the end.
 
Yes we ran into this before. I’m going to try to be as explicit as I can.

God is, always has been, and always will be at least partially responsible for all of your choices because he holds you in existence at all times. Also, his will is both immutable and totally sovereign.
No, Pumpkin. While He, by His very breath and will, does indeed hold all of creation in HIs existence at all times, He is no more responsible for my choices than I am responsible for my children’s choices.
Your will and God’s will must be consonant or “synergistic” or else God is not truly omnipotent.
This is a nonsequitur. If God gives me my free will, my choice to choose Him or reject Him has NOTHING at all to do with God’s omnipotence.
 
No, Pumpkin. While He, by His very breath and will, does indeed hold all of creation in HIs existence at all times, He is no more responsible for my choices than I am responsible for my children’s choices.

This is a nonsequitur. If God gives me my free will, my choice to choose Him or reject Him has NOTHING at all to do with God’s omnipotence.
Consider this situation:

God wills for you to do X.

You choose to do non-X.

Can it be said that God is omnipotent in this situation if the definition of omnipotence is that one’s will is always accomplished?

If you say yes, please explain why.

To me it seems the answer is clearly not.

Love captain Sisko. I have seen every single episode of all of the Star Trek shows. Such great stories of friendship, courage, and discovery. 🙂 Gotta go, be back later.
 
… if the definition of omnipotence is that one’s will is always accomplished?
That is not the definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence is having complete or unlimited power. God can still be omnipotent and at the same time have his will not followed by humans since he gave us free will to either follow or not follow him.
 
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