If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[PRmerger]

It can be turned into a word game very easily… and usually is… but from my understanding people dont lose their salvation because they stop hearing… they lose it when they stop doing.
I guess the quick and dirty answer is ‘yes’ IMHO …

Then we are agreed.

People are capable of losing their salvation.

God is not incapable of dealing with that scenario.

I have read and heard of people in closed/ controlled Muslim societies that have a burning desire to really know what the truth is … there are multiple stories of people like this having personal encounters with Jesus. They never read the Bible… it is outlawed … But God’s word is written in their heart (as it states in the book of Romans) … and they pull the truth right out of heaven. Truth calls to truth

.
Again, you are quite consonant with Catholicism here, 1voice!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. Absolutely.

So there is*** no such thing as assurance of salvation.*** For each and every man who *thinks *he is saved can, by folly, be one of those poor souls who “thinks he’s saved but is really not.” :sad_yes:

 

[rinnie]

To say you are saved by faith alone, why do I have to read the bible does sound funny does it not.

But if I wrote a book and I said something and it could be taken ten different ways even 20, I only meant it one.

Now who is qualified to interpret what I say, the 20 people reading the book, or the person who wrote the book?

There are always many sides to a story. As in a marriage, her side his side and the truth.

The CHurch has the Truth. The bible tells you so.

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;8132627]
Directly? Can you provide evidence for this Jon?

No, more indirectly. A climate was set, and I also believe that sola scriptura has its roots in differing opinions about councils, etc. Nothing I can point to, just a sense I have.

My understanding was that it was abuses by the Catholic clergy that was the catalyst, no?

Yes, but again, indulgences have no standing in the east, from what I understand, so this too points indirectly to the Schism.

BTW, PR, thanks for the friends invitation. I accepted it with joy.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

To say you are saved by faith alone, why do I have to read the bible does sound funny does it not.

But if I wrote a book and I said something and it could be taken ten different ways even 20, I only meant it one.

Now who is qualified to interpret what I say, the 20 people reading the book, or the person who wrote the book?

There are always many sides to a story. As in a marriage, her side his side and the truth.

The CHurch has the Truth. The bible tells you so.

Does the co-author, to stay as best I can with your anaology, have an equal qualification to interpret it? And what happens if those two interpretations vary?
Same thing with the Council of Nicea. The 2 co-authors can’t agree on what it meant regarding the jurisdiction of one of the patriarchates. Whose interpretation is correct?

Jon

 

[christosdavid]

The Holy Spirit discerning it.

sounds like as argument a LDS might make about the book of Mormon

 

[ronin67]

And actually, the Holy Spirit discerned nothing. Some* people,* gifted with the charism of infallibility by the Holy Spirit, “discerned” it.

Actually these people were Catholic people. Specifically, Catholic bishops.

Yes, you are correct, but how does the Holy Bible run second to the church? Aren’t they suppose to run hand and hand and not contradict one another? No, the Holy Spirit gives you the gift of discernment (if that is the one of many gifts you are to receive). Yet, it amazes me how many people I have met in my experience with Catholics who don’t read the Holy Bible, even though it was the Catholic church who compiled and put together the first Holy Bible (Vulgate). I wonder why that is? It truly does perplex me. Feeding on the word is not just a Protestant thing.

May God Bless,

Ed

 

[ronin67]

So must one continually hear the Word? And if he does stop hearing, does he lose his salvation?

You are good with the baiting questions. One must hear the word, and strive to understand it. Just getting the daily readings in mass is not enough. Those who hear it, in most cases don’t pursue the meaning of the daily readings. They just listen, leave the mass and think to themselves “I’m good to go”. The Church and the Holy Bible go hand in hand. If the Catholic Church or any Orthodox Christian church makes any teachings or practices outside Biblical understanding/even in an extreme extent not necessarily intended in the Holy Bible, but interpreted by the church are being needed on this level (Marion Doctrine for example as Protestants may argue), the humans who make these decisions can and may be wrong. Just to say, they must be right because they are the church is a wrong assumption in some cases (reformation). The one true church made some pretty unbiblical and bad decisions during the time of the reformation. However, I refuse to believe that Christ had any part of those bad decisions, even though the Catholic Church will say they are the one true body of Christ. Anyway, you want to bring the Protestants back into the one true church (which should be the goal of every Catholic), drop certain excessive doctrines and this just may happen.

May God Bless,

Ed

 

[ronin67]

To say you are saved by faith alone, why do I have to read the bible does sound funny does it not.

But if I wrote a book and I said something and it could be taken ten different ways even 20, I only meant it one.

Now who is qualified to interpret what I say, the 20 people reading the book, or the person who wrote the book?

There are always many sides to a story. As in a marriage, her side his side and the truth.

The CHurch has the Truth. The bible tells you so.

Reading what it says and a personal agenda of interpretation are two different things.  You speak in tongues?  Well, if you don't you have not received the Holy Spirit according to many Pentecostal churches.  Is this correct? Not according to the scripture.  There are many gifts.   It was "person's" who wrote the book not "person".  The Holy Catholic Church compiled the books of the Holy Bible.  They were written before the The Offical Holy Catholic Church existed.  You know, maybe Christ did mean that the Body would be those who accept the truth of his sacrifice thru the grace extended to us by God.  Which may explain why God let the reformation happen.

May God bless.

Ed

 

[Jim_Roberts]

You have rules to follow; The Ten Commandments and you have a booklet that covers all of the sins we could have committed–EXAMINATION OF CONSCIENCE. YOu will find
this and what sins are rto be confessed.

 

[1voice]

So must one continually hear the Word? And if he does stop hearing, does he lose his salvation?

To me, ‘salvation by faith alone’ means that God, through Jesus has provided a way of escape from sin and hell. Each individual has the right and responsibility to participate in that by exercising the free gift of faith. “Without faith… it is impossible to please God”

It is a 2 way street. God gives … we receive and exercise our right.

The thing that I think Martin Luther was bringing to our attention is that people were putting the cart before the horse. in other words …Complete forgiveness/ restoration and salvation are freely given by God the instant that there is true repentance … Nothing more is required to restore right relationship with God…

When a person sins … they break fellowship with God… God has given a way of escape from broken fellowship. That way is through the faith to know that God always honors true repentance… and we are guaranteed complete restoration the instant we repent. … 70 X 7

 

[rinnie]

Does the co-author, to stay as best I can with your anaology, have an equal qualification to interpret it? And what happens if those two interpretations vary?
Same thing with the Council of Nicea. The 2 co-authors can’t agree on what it meant regarding the jurisdiction of one of the patriarchates. Whose interpretation is correct?

Jon

See thats just the great thing about it Jon. They don’t interpret it. Thats way it never vary’s/

The Church is promised the gift of the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

So anotherwards if the Pope says it has been revealed to the Church that this scripture states this, then it has to be the truth. There is only One Holy Spirit and one truth.

You have to remember the Pope and Bishops can give thier opinion on anything they want and all be wrong.

But when they speak in the voice of God which is the Holy Spirit they cannot differ or be wrong.

It is not their Opinion, it is what is revealed to them by the Power of the HOly Spirit.

ANd what people do not realize although everything has been revealed as far as the teacings, the Holy Spirit is still teaching us as far as our understanding.

People seem to think God left us a book, the Church and we are on our own. The Holy Spirit is still alive and teaching us today as of yesterday. There is much revelation to be understood, not revealed. Do you see what I am saying.

ALL that we need to know is revealed by Christ, but the understanding and clear picture is revealed through time as GOd feels we can accept it and understand it.

 

[rinnie]

To me, ‘salvation by faith alone’ means that God, through Jesus has provided a way of escape from sin and hell. Each individual has the right and responsibility to participate in that by exercising the free gift of faith. “Without faith… it is impossible to please God”

It is a 2 way street. God gives … we receive and exercise our right.

The thing that I think Martin Luther was bringing to our attention is that people were putting the cart before the horse. in other words …Complete forgiveness/ restoration and salvation are freely given by God the instant that there is true repentance … Nothing more is required to restore right relationship with God…

When a person sins … they break fellowship with God… God has given a way of escape from broken fellowship. That way is through the faith to know that God always honors true repentance… and we are guaranteed complete restoration the instant we repent. … 70 X 7

Oh I see, and we acquire this faith alone how? You seem to feel that it is our faith alone that we are saved. Where then is Christ in this Picture. It is not by his Grace that is given to us that we can even have faith.

I think that where you need to do some thinking. Faith alone seems to leave Grace and Christ completely out of the circle here. WHen you say your faith you seem to feel its all about you and your faith. This is not the teachings of Jesus Christ.

We are saved by the Saving Grace of Christ, and through this saving Grace we can acquire Faith which is a free gift given by his grace. We then choose to use this grace and live out it through faith, or throw away this grace and not live it out thorugh faith.

 

[Rightlydivide]

So there is*** no such thing as assurance of salvation.*** For each and every man who *thinks *he is saved can, by folly, be one of those poor souls who “thinks he’s saved but is really not.” :sad_yes:

Wrong. There is assurance of salvation.

1st John 5 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Some people are wrong. There is no way around that. No matter what you believe about anything in terms of theological beliefs. Someone, somewhere, thinks beyond a shadow of a doubt they are right but they are not. Someone on the other hand is right and knows it. Some get eternal life. Some get eternal hell. I don’t make the rules here. Its in the Bible.

 

[1voice]

Oh I see, and we acquire this faith alone how?

All have sinned and fall short. Our righteousness is like filthy rags.

… but the free gift of God is restoration to fellowship with God … because I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[JonNC]

See thats just the great thing about it Jon. They don’t interpret it. Thats way it never vary’s/

The Church is promised the gift of the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

So anotherwards if the Pope says it has been revealed to the Church that this scripture states this, then it has to be the truth. There is only One Holy Spirit and one truth.

You have to remember the Pope and Bishops can give thier opinion on anything they want and all be wrong.

But when they speak in the voice of God which is the Holy Spirit they cannot differ or be wrong.

It is not their Opinion, it is what is revealed to them by the Power of the HOly Spirit.

ANd what people do not realize although everything has been revealed as far as the teacings, the Holy Spirit is still teaching us as far as our understanding.

People seem to think God left us a book, the Church and we are on our own. The Holy Spirit is still alive and teaching us today as of yesterday. There is much revelation to be understood, not revealed. Do you see what I am saying.

ALL that we need to know is revealed by Christ, but the understanding and clear picture is revealed through time as GOd feels we can accept it and understand it.

You missed my point, rinnie. When I said “co-authors”, I was referring to east and west, Orthodoxy and Rome.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

No, more indirectly.

Thanks for the clarification, as you did, it seems, say that it led “directly” to the use of SS.

And yet, it can be argued that the schism of east and west led directly to the use of sola scriptura, since there wasn’t agreement enough using Tradition and scripture to hold the Church together, leading to councils and doctrines not held in the undivided Church of the 1st Millennium.

Now, to continue the dialogue…

A climate was set, and I also believe that sola scriptura has its roots in differing opinions about councils, etc. Nothing I can point to, just a sense I have.

Fair enough. Schism is, indeed, sinful, and there is no doubt that the fruit of sin is often sin and not virtue.

BTW, PR, thanks for the friends invitation. I accepted it with joy.

Jon

Happy to read this.

I have Private Albums viewable to friends; come visit my Profile Page and see! It’s fun to put a face to a screenname. It also makes it easier, IMHO, to remain charitable* in dialogue when one can “see” to whom one is addressing. I wish more folks put up photos. But I get the whole privacy thing.

*Not that you needed any help in being charitable, Jon.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, you are correct, but how does the Holy Bible run second to the church?

Not sure what you mean by “run second” to the Church, Ed. Could you please expound?

Aren’t they suppose to run hand and hand and not contradict one another?

The Church does not contradict the Sacred Scriptures. As it was the Church which provided us with these sacred texts it is impossible for the Church to produce something which contradicts it.

Yet, it amazes me how many people I have met in my experience with Catholics who don’t read the Holy Bible,

'Tis sad, indeed. Perhaps the clergy were remiss, in times past, in emphasizing the importance of reading the Bible.

even though it was the Catholic church who compiled and put together the first Holy Bible (Vulgate).

I don’t believe the Vulgate was the* first *Holy Bible. The Vulgate was compiled by St. Jerome, who translated it. But the Bible was in existence prior to the Vulgate.

 

[PRmerger]

You are good with the baiting questions.

If asking questions on a forum, whose very essence relies on questioning and answering, is considered “baiting”, then I suppose all who pose questions here could be accused of “baiting”, eh?

At any rate, I do not take kindly to this accusation, Ed.

 

[PRmerger]

When a person sins … they break fellowship with God… God has given a way of escape from broken fellowship. That way is through the faith to know that God always honors true repentance… and we are guaranteed complete restoration the instant we repent. … 70 X 7

The instant?

Why would, then, Jesus tell his apostles to “retain” sins? How does that work in your paradigm?