If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[1voice]

1voice. To make this simple and easier for you when we sin and it is venial sin, yes we can pray on our own and ask God to forgive us. Like being angry, cussing, small everyday sns, that are not right, but you could say are common. Having bad throughts etc.

But as you read that ST Paul said you can’t pray for sin that causes death on your own and be forgiven, that is why we confess to a Priest, he has the gift of the Holy Spirit to forgive that sin, that means mortal sin 1 voice. Mortal sin means death of the soul. A Priest is who has the power of the HS to forgive sin, I am sure we have given you that scripture on this thread alone, many times,

But there is actually NEVER a reason NOT to pray.

I agree with you that Paul says that there is sin that causes death and that cant be prayed for.
Where we differ is in the fact that I see nothing in the passage that indicates a remedy for the person that has committed the sin ‘that causes death’… You assume that Paul is saying that some sins must be dealt with through a Priest and confession. Clearly he is not saying anything more than the following … there are sins that can be prayed for and some sins that cannot. You automatically add the assumption about the Priest and confession … but the passage does not indicate what you assume.

You also say there is a remedy based on your assumption that all sin can be forgiven … I read where Jesus (our Lord and the author of our faith) said clearly that there is a kind of sin that cannot be forgiven.

If there is never a reason not to pray for forgiveness … why didnt Peter (the first Pope according to Catholic teaching … and one who set precedent and sat under the instruction of Jesus himself) pray forgiveness for Ananias and Sophira?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
John speaks of a specific kind of
‘mortal sin’ …a kind that should not be prayed for… Perhaps he is referring to the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit … which Jesus said is unforgivable.

It doesn’t say that in the passage either, does it? you are speculating.

When did I say that my words are in the passage?

 

[rinnie]

I agree with you that Paul says that there is sin that causes death and that cant be prayed for.
Where we differ is in the fact that I see nothing in the passage that indicates a remedy for the person that has committed the sin ‘that causes death’… You assume that Paul is saying that some sins must be dealt with through a Priest and confession. Clearly he is not saying anything more than the following … there are sins that can be prayed for and some sins that cannot. You automatically add the assumption about the Priest and confession … but the passage does not indicate what you assume.

You also say there is a remedy based on your assumption that all sin can be forgiven … I read where Jesus (our Lord and the author of our faith) said clearly that there is a kind of sin that cannot be forgiven.

If there is never a reason not to pray for forgiveness … why didnt Peter (the first Pope according to Catholic teaching … and one who set precedent and sat under the instruction of Jesus himself) pray forgiveness for Ananias and Sophira?

The only sin that can’t be forgiven is to not believe in the Holy Spirit which would really makes sense because that means not accepting God.

BUt apart from that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. If there is why does the bible state that there is no sin that we cannot overcome with the Grace of God. But of course as I stated you must accept God in order to accept his grace, which is common sense.

You refuse to comment on the Statement of Jesus when he says that you whose sin YOU forgive is forgiven and whose sin YOU hold bound is held bound. So what scripture more clear could we give to you.

We have alll numerous times given you the scripture. Tell me, I have asked you numerous times and never get a response.

When Jesus said to the Apostles that whose sin they forgive are forgiven what do you thing that means if not that they can forgive sins. What does it mean then to give the power to forgive sins, NOT forgive sins

Are you denying the word of God or do you not understand by the way which is quite clear that they can bound and forgive sins. I mean please just say I do not agree with it, but don’t say its not there. We showed it to you.

 

[rinnie]

And I never said ST Paul said there is any sin we cannot pray for. You continue to put words in my mouth.

ST Paul said there are Mortal sins that we cannot pray for ON OUR OWN, so would it not make sense to put the scirpture together and go to the Priest who has the power to forgive sins.

Or if you are right and we commit mortal sin then there is no forgiveness of sins then yes we are ALL pretty much going to hell right now.

 

[rinnie]

I agree with you that Paul says that there is sin that causes death and that cant be prayed for.
Where we differ is in the fact that I see nothing in the passage that indicates a remedy for the person that has committed the sin ‘that causes death’… You assume that Paul is saying that some sins must be dealt with through a Priest and confession. Clearly he is not saying anything more than the following … there are sins that can be prayed for and some sins that cannot. You automatically add the assumption about the Priest and confession … but the passage does not indicate what you assume.

You also say there is a remedy based on your assumption that all sin can be forgiven … I read where Jesus (our Lord and the author of our faith) said clearly that there is a kind of sin that cannot be forgiven.

If there is never a reason not to pray for forgiveness … why didnt Peter (the first Pope according to Catholic teaching … and one who set precedent and sat under the instruction of Jesus himself) pray forgiveness for Ananias and Sophira?

Why wouldn’t they pray for them? Are you saying that they rejected God?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Paul speaks of a specific kind of
‘mortal sin’ …a kind that should not be prayed for… Perhaps he is referring to the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit … which Jesus said is unforgivable.

It doesn’t say that in the passage either, does it? you are speculating.

I see that we agree that the passage doesnt say the particular things that I describe above…

 

[rinnie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Paul speaks of a specific kind of
‘mortal sin’ …a kind that should not be prayed for… Perhaps he is referring to the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit … which Jesus said is unforgivable.

I see that we agree that the passage doesnt say the particular things that I describe above…

:banghead::banghead:

 

[1voice]

You did not quote the Scripture. You posted a passage out of the amplified version, which adds words and concepts to the scripture. Here is the non-amplified version:

1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
guanophore;8177950:

There is nothing in this passage that has your concept (you are adding) of “leads to death”.

Amplified Bible:
16If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven]

---

Greek NT:

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 5:16 ean <1437> {IF} tiV <5100> {ANYONE} idh <1492> (5632) {SHOULD SEE} ton <3588> adelfon <80> autou <846> {HIS BROTHER} amartanonta <264> (5723) {SINNING} amartian <266> {A SIN} mh <3361> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH,} aithsei <154> (5692) {HE SHALL ASK,} kai <2532> {AND} dwsei <1325> (5692) {HE SHALL GIVE} autw <846> {HIM} zwhn <2222> {LIFE} toiV <3588> {FOR THOSE THAT} amartanousin <264> (5723) {SIN} mh <3361> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH.} estin <2076> (5748) {THERE IS} amartia <266> {A SIN} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH;} ou <3756> {NOT} peri <4012> {CONCERNING} ekeinhV <1565> {THAT} legw <3004> (5719) {DO I SAY} ina <2443> {THAT} erwthsh <2065> (5661) {HE SHOULD BESEECH.}

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 5:17 pasa <3956> {EVERY} adikia <93> {UNRIGHTEOUSNESS} amartia <266> {SIN} estin <2076> (5748) {IS;} kai <2532> {AND} estin <2076> (5748) {THERE IS} amartia <266> {A SIN} ou <3756> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH.}

olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

---

 

[rinnie]

guanophore;8177950:

You did not quote the Scripture. You posted a passage out of the amplified version, which adds words and concepts to the scripture. Here is the non-amplified version:

1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Amplified Bible:
16If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven]

---

Greek NT:

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 5:16 ean <1437> {IF

} tiV <5100> {ANYONE} idh <1492> (5632) {SHOULD SEE} ton <3588> adelfon <80> autou <846> {HIS BROTHER} amartanonta <264> (5723) {SINNING} amartian <266> {A SIN} mh <3361> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH,} aithsei <154> (5692) {HE SHALL ASK,} kai <2532> {AND} dwsei <1325> (5692) {HE SHALL GIVE} autw <846> {HIM} zwhn <2222> {LIFE} toiV <3588> {FOR THOSE THAT} amartanousin <264> (5723) {SIN} mh <3361> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH.} estin <2076> (5748) {THERE IS} amartia <266> {A SIN} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH;} ou <3756> {NOT} peri <4012> {CONCERNING} ekeinhV <1565> {THAT} legw <3004> (5719) {DO I SAY} ina <2443> {THAT} erwthsh <2065> (5661) {HE SHOULD BESEECH.}

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 John 5:17 pasa <3956> {EVERY} adikia <93> {UNRIGHTEOUSNESS} amartia <266> {SIN} estin <2076> (5748) {IS;} kai <2532> {AND} estin <2076> (5748) {THERE IS} amartia <266> {A SIN} ou <3756> {NOT} proV <4314> {TO} qanaton <2288> {DEATH.}

olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

---

lvoice, what is the difference between saying a sin that leads to death of the soul or saying mortal sin, when they mean the same exact thing?

So If I say the Trinity or the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is still the same thing. Could you show me what changes the meaning of what is being said?

 

[eegardner]

The Bible does not teach faith alone.
Jesus did not teach faith alone.

 

[1voice]

1voice;8181033:

lvoice, what is the difference between saying a sin that leads to death of the soul or saying mortal sin, when they mean the same exact thing?

So If I say the Trinity or the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is still the same thing. Could you show me what changes the meaning of what is being said?

I am not the one saying there is a difference …

I posted in response to this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by guanophore:

“You did not quote the Scripture. You posted a passage out of the amplified version, which adds words and concepts to the scripture.” Here is the non-amplified version:

1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guanophore:

"“There is nothing in this passage that has your concept (you are adding) of “leads to death”.”

 

[1voice]

1voice;8181033:

lvoice, what is the difference between saying a sin that leads to death of the soul or saying mortal sin, when they mean the same exact thing?

So If I say the Trinity or the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is still the same thing. Could you show me what changes the meaning of what is being said?

Romans 6:

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;8190151:

Romans 6:

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What does this have to do with answerring my question. This scripure confrims my question that sin leads to death of the soul which we call mortal sin??

 

[guanophore]

In my quote above, I clearly say that ‘mortal’ sin can be forgiven.

Thanks. Clearly I misread it.

I agree with you that Paul says that there is sin that causes death and that cant be prayed for.

Where do find Paul saying this?

Where we differ is in the fact that I see nothing in the passage that indicates a remedy for the person that has committed the sin 'that causes death'...

I see nothing in the passage that indicates this either. I think where we differ is that Catholics do not extract doctrines form various verses, so we have no NEED to see this here. We receive our doctrine from the Apostles. For us, the NT reflects the Christian faith, but is not the Source of it. Our faith comes from Christ. It is reflected in the New Testament because the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.

There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic. Therefore, it is not a concern for us, as it is to you (apparnelty) that this passage does not make referece to the remedy. We already know the remedy from Sacred Tradition.

You assume that Paul is saying that some sins must be dealt with through a Priest and confession.

Not at all. And honestly, I can’t think of anywhere that Paul addresses this subject.

Clearly he is not saying anything more than the following … there are sins that can be prayed for and some sins that cannot. You automatically add the assumption about the Priest and confession … but the passage does not indicate what you assume.

We do “add” but it is not an "assumption " we are adding. We add the Apostolic understanding that has been infallibly passed down to us. We read the Scripture according to the faith that produced it. That is why we do not need to have the reference in the passage.

You also say there is a remedy based on your assumption that all sin can be forgiven … I read where Jesus (our Lord and the author of our faith) said clearly that there is a kind of sin that cannot be forgiven.

These are not contradictory at all. Sin can be forgiven up to the moment of death. After that, the judgement.

If there is never a reason not to pray for forgiveness ... why didnt Peter (the first Pope according to Catholic teaching ... and one who set precedent and sat under the instruction of Jesus himself) pray forgiveness for Ananias and Sophira?

It would be an error to assume that, because something is not written in Scripture, it did not happen. In truth, we don’t know how the early church prayed for these unfortunate people. However, if God revealed to Peter that these two committed the unforgivable sin, then he would not pray for them. Mourn, perhaps, but not go against the will of God.

When did I say that my words are in the passage?

You keep making reference to a sin which "leads to " death. The effect of mortal sin is immediate. It is deadly. It does tend to lead to more death, but it is clear from the passage about Ananias and Sapphira that there was no “leading” going on. They were already there at the door of death, and people carried them out.

Romans 6:

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The sins result in death. They are mortal. They kill the life of the Spirit in one.
It is not like there is a process (“leads to”) to get there. The effect is immediate.

 

[guanophore]

I think you stopped one verse too short:

Verse 10:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Our works aid to sanctify us further, allows to grow more in faith and love, and shows in our actions.

But our works help atone/expiate them.

It always amazes me how people seem to become blind at the beginning of v. 10.

I think, when talking to our separated brethren, it is not a good idea to say that our works atone or expiate for our sins. There is nothing lacking in Jesus atonement that we can provide. However, they do make up for the consequences of the sins.

 

[EzraJacob]

Its one thing Protestants do that makes me scratch my head. They use the bible as authority but at the same time disregard much of the bible to support their faith. Such as believing OSAS based off a few verses, but disregarding all of the rest of verses that contradict such belief.

That is why I am Catholic. I see the wholeness of the Gospel and teachings in the beautiful One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.

 

[EzraJacob]

rinnie;8190151:

Romans 6:

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amazing. You proved the man right!

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
You also say there is a remedy based on your assumption that all sin can be forgiven … I read where Jesus (our Lord and the author of our faith) said clearly that there is a kind of sin that cannot be forgiven.

These are not contradictory at all. Sin can be forgiven up to the moment of death. After that, the judgement.

Jesus specifically stated that the sin that would not be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[NetStar]

Hello everyone! I have been reading these forums for a while now but this is my first time posting. This is kind of intimidating especially since I am only 20 and some of the people here are much older and have much more knowledge and experience than I do. Anyway, I go to a non denominational evangelical church. I decided to post on this specific topic because I was actually thinking about it when I woke up this morning.

I have found that the common misconception, not only here but with a lot of my Catholic friends (and even some Protestants themselves), is that we believe that all we need to do is pray that we are sinners and accept Jesus Christ and that is it we will be in heaven for sure. The thing is, that little prayer isn’t enough. After you do that you need to let Christ work on your life. You have to be born again - you have to be a new person. You can’t live the same life that you were living.

That is when the works start following. That is when your works will show that you are a Christian. You aren’t doing the works to prove to God you have faith in him because God doesn’t need proof. He knows what is in you heart and if you are a faithful servant or not. The works are to glorify God so that through your works others can come to know Christ.

If someone accepts Christ they will want to humble themselves. They will try to love their neighbor, they will minister to others, they will want to read their Bible, be charitable etc etc. We do all this because we want to be like Christ. Now, if someone says they accepted Christ cus they said a little prayer but go on living the life that they once lived, and do nothing that shows that they are a follower of Christ, then of course by their works it will show that they aren’t saved.

We do believe that even after you are saved you will still sin. We are human after all, but we strive to not sin. When we do sin we are supposed to have true repentance and we try to not do it again. If someone falls into a bad habit, they aren’t supposed to just sit there and let it take over their lives. They are supposed to be in a time of prayer, repentance, and counseling.

The Bible is necessary because it tells us how to live our lives. Like I said, you can’t just say you are saved and not live the way Christ did, or not follow the commandments.

This is what I have learned from my Church and the school that I go to which is a Christian College. I know my view on this is different from others, but I just wanted to show that even though some people view it that way not everyone does. Thank you

I like what you said.

 

[1voice]

Hello everyone! I have been reading these forums for a while now but this is my first time posting. This is kind of intimidating especially since I am only 20 and some of the people here are much older and have much more knowledge and experience than I do. Anyway, I go to a non denominational evangelical church. I decided to post on this specific topic because I was actually thinking about it when I woke up this morning.

I have found that the common misconception, not only here but with a lot of my Catholic friends (and even some Protestants themselves), is that we believe that all we need to do is pray that we are sinners and accept Jesus Christ and that is it we will be in heaven for sure. The thing is, that little prayer isn’t enough. After you do that you need to let Christ work on your life. You have to be born again - you have to be a new person. You can’t live the same life that you were living.

That is when the works start following. That is when your works will show that you are a Christian. You aren’t doing the works to prove to God you have faith in him because God doesn’t need proof. He knows what is in you heart and if you are a faithful servant or not. The works are to glorify God so that through your works others can come to know Christ.

If someone accepts Christ they will want to humble themselves. They will try to love their neighbor, they will minister to others, they will want to read their Bible, be charitable etc etc. We do all this because we want to be like Christ. Now, if someone says they accepted Christ cus they said a little prayer but go on living the life that they once lived, and do nothing that shows that they are a follower of Christ, then of course by their works it will show that they aren’t saved.

We do believe that even after you are saved you will still sin. We are human after all, but we strive to not sin. When we do sin we are supposed to have true repentance and we try to not do it again. If someone falls into a bad habit, they aren’t supposed to just sit there and let it take over their lives. They are supposed to be in a time of prayer, repentance, and counseling.

The Bible is necessary because it tells us how to live our lives. Like I said, you can’t just say you are saved and not live the way Christ did, or not follow the commandments.

This is what I have learned from my Church and the school that I go to which is a Christian College. I know my view on this is different from others, but I just wanted to show that even though some people view it that way not everyone does. Thank you

Kristin,

Awesome post!!!

I have been walking with the Lord for over 40 years and the things that you say ring true.
God bless you… and keep you … and make his face to shine upon you … and give you peace!! … and may you and those that the Lord gives you to love dance on the streets of gold a half hour before the devil knows you’re gone…