If I believe in God (and that Jesus dies on the cross) will I have all the forgiveness I always need

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Maximus1 said:
You raise fear of hell. To large a subject for this thread, I want to raise an idea in response to your post. Since I was a young Catholic School student a long time ago, I was always troubled by the conflict of two ideas you raise. Loving God and fear of hell. The conflict is found in our very nature. When we fear somebody, it is hard to be intimate. We are guarded and cut off by fear. How much more this fearful state of guarded, with a being we are told can and will consign us to ETERNAL torment. And yet our purpose is Divine Union. Infinite love, and inhumane unthinkable punishment. ( People concieve vulnerability because they masturbate) Something is missing here! As a Catholic obedience is key, and so you contemplate in quiet desperation. It is the very attempt to harmonize these ideas that terrorizes.
While the expression of that terror invariably is my own flaw. In fact the very idea of a Catholic forum to express such ideas is fairly new.
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Just to avoid confusion… it would be helpful if you could avoid editing your posts after I’ve written back to you because it is making me look even more simple minded than I’d care to admit 😉
Maximus1 said:
There is a saying.
You do not think your way into good living.
You live your way into good thinking.
I guess I am exploring that idea within the context of following God’s will.
What do you think?
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I’m inclined to say it’s both… living that way and thinking that way. I’m guessing thinking must come first because we need motivation to change our ways. Thought always comes before a change of ways. When we’re sinning, sin leads to other sins… as well as habitual sins. I recognise that it isn’t easy to turn away from sin… and so does the Church. We have limitations on culpability due to habit and ignorance. Growing in our faith and learning about God guides us away from those practices. And knowing becomes loving, and as we grow in that love, it drives out the initial fear.
 
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I presuppose knowledge as a set of boundaries. A catechism section, an edict of obedience and a threat of unthinkable torment for failure. Does this change our ways? What is gained? Am I transformed? I am now conditioned to avoid the whip. I don’t love. I avoid punishment. I see the same conflict.
 
I’m not really sure what you’d like me to say. Scripture teaches us about hell and punishment and avoiding sin etc. Christ himself speaks about hell a lot.
 
I see passages also in scripture so I agree they are there. In fact my argument of conflict is dependant upon the fact they are there. Lol. I didn’t suggest the issues I raise is an easy one to resolve. If there was a resolution I could research and find it. Unfortunately, attempts to resolve have never resulted in consensus.
Accordingly , all you can say is what you think. What do you really think?
 
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Honestly I don’t feel a conflict. Maybe I’m not reading it in the same way that you are, or we’re studying from different materials, perhaps. When I first began practicing my faith, when I first started reading the bible… I started with the book of Revelation as I knew it would frighten me… then I followed up with the Gospel books etc. I started from a place of fear. I didn’t really know God at that time and yet I already believed in him.
 
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Latin said:
I’m a Roman Catholic, if you have further questions MagdalenaRita please ask.
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So, I see all of your quotes and I am pretty sure I understand what you are “trying” to say. The thing is all of the quotes given have other context around them and need to be read and studied in full, under the complete guidance of the Catholic church.

The Church does not, nor has it ever, taught that man is saved at one moment, once, and then is always saved, forever after, without any chance of throwing that salvation away. God is omniscience yes, always calling us yes, but He also allows us to make our own choices. Does He continually work in each person’s life to call that person back to him, yes, but He doesn’t force man to say yes to His calling. Just as the prodigal son made his own choice to return. The father did not force him.

The Church does teach that salvation happened once for each baptized person, is happening ongoing as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and will happen for those who will die in God’s grace.

The once saved, always saved theory is that once I make a confession of faith, accept and believe Christ died for me, I can live each day with the assurance that not one sin I do can cause me to not enter into heaven.

The Catholic church on the other hand teaches that there are sins that can cause us not to enter into heaven, we call them mortal sins. Because of mortal sins the Church, through Jesus, has instituted the sacrament of penance, that restores that salvation.

Council of Trent:

God, rich in mercy, knows our frame, (g) He hath bestowed a remedy of life even on those who may, after baptism, have delivered themselves up to the servitude of sin and the power of the devil, --the sacrament to wit of Penance, by which the benefit of the death of Christ is applied to those who have fallen after baptism. Penitence was in deed at all times neccessary, in order to attain to grace and justice, for all men who had defiled themselves by any mortal sin, even for those who begged to be washed by the sacrament of Baptism ; that so, their perverseness renounced and amended, they might, with a hatred of sin and a godly sorrow of mind, detest so great an offence of God. Wherefore the prophet says; Be converted and do penance for all your iniquities, and iniquity shall not be your ruin. (h) The Lord also said; Except you do penance, you shall also likewise perish.

I do agree with one thing you said, God provides for us all we need for salvation, but it is up to us to partake of what He has provided and so very few partake of this great sacrament of penance any longer. He does not force us but gently calls everyone.

In all charity, I am glad you said you were Catholic, because there does seem to be some protestant blending in what you are saying.

God bless.
 
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Latin said:
Could you please Dan_Defender show us, which part of Catholic Soteriology teaches, the doctrine of ‘once saved, always saved’ is false.
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Wouldn’t the very idea of mortal sin suggest that just because you are justified at the moment of salvation doesn’t mean you are always in that state?

The concept of mortal sin has been an integral part of the Christian message since the very beginning. Literally dozens of passages in the New Testament proclaim it a fearful reality, and these biblical teachings were fully accepted by, and indeed expounded upon, by the early Church Fathers.

It was not until the time of John Calvin that anyone would claim that it was impossible for a true Christian to lose his salvation.
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I don’t fear him… I was speaking about where I began. Intimacy is where love takes over and drives out fear.
 
I dont think the term fear means what you think it means in the bible
 
I realize the OT notion of fear is somewhat different than how I am using it, but how I am using it is as a natural human reaction to the threat of eternal torment.
 
Respectfully, driving out fear as you say, does that mean you no longer fear the possibility of eternal damnation?
 
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I do fear eternal damnation, if I’m honest… but I don’t mean for myself. I fear it for others. I’ve managed to overcome my major and habitual sins, thanks be to God, and I’m working on the more minor ones. So, no… I don’t feel that I am at risk of eternal damnation. I honestly have joy and peace residing within me, so I believe I’m finally on the right path. I use vigilance to remain on it, too.
 
I think your description of your journey is great. I think your statement about why you have no fear is authentic. I believe it is more common than we think. I have read that it is also common to worry about others as you do. ( The classic Summa/ Aquinas discussion of how we can go to heaven and still feel bliss and joy knowing a loved one is experiencing eternal torment.) ( I was unsatisfied with the argument to say the least).
 
Yes I have overcome bad sins to. I did penance and God has helped me feel much peace. I want no one to suffer eternal damnation.
 
sudy said:
I do fear eternal damnation, if I’m honest… but I don’t mean for myself. I fear it for others. I’ve managed to overcome my major and habitual sins, thanks be to God, and I’m working on the more minor ones. So, no… I don’t feel that I am at risk of eternal damnation. I honestly have joy and peace residing within me, so I believe I’m finally on the right path. I use vigilance to remain on it, too.
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I do think it is good that you are at peace and that you have overcome major and habitual sins. I feel the same way about myself and do worry about others though I do realize that temptations can come along any time in life without us realizing it, so I also like that you use vigilance to stay on the right path. That though, staying on the right path, is accomplished by the grace of God - actual grace. Something God gives us when we need to do good or to avoid evil.

There is always the story of the person who was on the right path, doing so well in life and then in their later years turn from God and fall from grace.

So I guess my point is, I think it is good that you are working on sins, keeping vigilance on yourself because these are all needed and to be done out of love for God but maybe also with a little bit of fear or knowledge that we don’t know who we will be in the future and so should have some fear of eternal damnation.
 
I realise I didn’t make it clear that I fully know that it is God’s grace that is steering me along the right path, and the self vigilance can be understood as a recognition that although God won’t lose me, I can jump out of his hands… therefore that vigilance is my ‘fear’, if you like, that drives me.
 
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Quoting Scripture, Catholic Catechism and the Apologists
ARE BUT the SURFACE, we need to get to the ROOT of the
Problem… PRIDE, we do not want to admit that we need to
repent of our “mortal sins” before returning to a state of
Grace and confess to a confessor before returning to the
fellowship w/ the Church, the Body of Christ(Our Mother)
 
MagdalenaRita said:
The thing is all of the quotes given have other context around them and need to be read and studied in full, under the complete guidance of the Catholic church.
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1 Cor. 3:2 Explains the other context : I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready for it.
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New Christians/ Catholics included, they are not ready to receive the highest level teachings of the Church, like the teachings of the Catholic Encyclopedias or the teachings of the Catholic Theologies, etc.

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A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE TEACHINGS OF “MILK FOOD” WHAT THE NEW CATHOLICS/ CHRISTIANS ABLE TO COMPREHEND.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

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A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE “SOLID FOOD” WHICH IS THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIAS OR THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.

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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James akin

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43]
  1. Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13]’ [Matt.10:13]’ which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4.]”
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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The salvation of every saved and predestined to Heaven is eternally protected by God’s gift of Final Perseverance, this is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver. – This is an infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

Without God’s gift of Final Perseverance everyone would die in mortal sin, THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT IT.

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NOW LET’S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER

The “solid food” of God’s gift of Final Perseverance gives the understanding of the “milk” teachings of 1037.

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EXPLANATION OF THE CONNECTION BETWEEN 1037 AND GOD’S GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide).

CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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Every receiver of God’s gift of Final Perseverance INFALLIBLY protected from to die in mortal sin.

Every one of those who dose not receive God’s gift of Final Perseverance will die in mortal sin.
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We should never use the context of the “milk food” and the context of the “solid food” together, just only one context at the time.
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God bless
 
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