If I'm partially Cafeteria should I leave the church?

[Augustine22]

Sheesh, Denise. And I was having such a good day in my blissful delusion!!!

I’m thinking I’ll fast for the rest a my life and maybe I’ll squeek into purgatory.

 

[Pug]

St. Therese of Lisieux proposed that in the Particular Judgment, we see, for the first time, the full reality of everything we ever did. It is, she said, utterly devastating. We are then offered forgiveness. But forgiveness requires admission.

Some of the most tortured moments of my life have been when I’ve realized what I’ve just done will hurt someone. It is not just forgiveness that I want in those hours. I desperately want the damage undone. I don’t want the ripples to go out. It makes it hard to sleep at night until I forget. I realize I can hurt people on accident, with just a stupid, thoughtless word. It’s a bummer.

I know. If I trusted providence more, I would be less distressed. But still, this image of the Judgment makes me not want to ever see it, even though I still pray, Come Lord Jesus!

 

[Augustine22]

Pug,

I know what you mean! It’s such a mixed feeling. I’ve really got to get over that. I’ve got to trust in God’s mercy…need to pray the Divine Mercy more!

I love that prayer, especially when you sing it. I find peace there.

Pax!

 

[fix]

Maybe I don’t get around enough, but I don’t think I know anybody who hasn’t done that. “Cafeteriaism” is usually a matter of rationalizing what we want to do, so we do not have to admit it’s sinful. It’s practically the cornerstone of protestantism, but it’s hardly limited to protestantism.

The term is mostly used to describe those who claim to be Catholic, yet are not in full communion because they reject the authority of the Church. Let be try to be more clear. We all sin, that is not in question. Some claim it is compatible with the faith to reject certain teachings because the Church is wrong. There is a large distinction here. One who accepts the authority of the Church will sin, but when confronted with the truth the Church teaches such and such is sinful will assent to the teaching. They may still sin, but they accept they are wrong and hopefully seek confession.

The cafeteria Catholic will not accept that the Church has the authority in the matter and thus will not form their conscience as they ought.

I have always understood that the Particular Judgment is an event in which our sins will appear in the full panoply of their evil. Sin is a remarkable thing. It’s like a stone thrown into a pool. It ripples, then rebounds, then ripples some more. We might make some cruel remark to someone at age 16, and that person hits his wife 20 years later because the remark, buried in his consciousness, still stings. Their child might see the blow and doubt the wisdom of marriage because of it. On and on and on. We might have long forgotten the remark after having decided that it was really okay to make it because it was good for the victim to be “taken down a peg”.

That is not cafeteria Catholicism. The orthodox Catholic would not see your examples as not sinning.

Life is so full of that kind of thing, I am kind of surprised at your comment. To a degree, “Cafeteriaism” can be said to be part of the process whereby we find a way to accept the unacceptable by constructing a world in which it is acceptable. The unacceptable, of course, is the sense of having sinned. St. Therese of Lisieux proposed that in the Particular Judgment, we see, for the first time, the full reality of everything we ever did. It is, she said, utterly devastating. We are then offered forgiveness. But forgiveness requires admission. Some, she said, find such forgivness demeaning of our inflated sense of ourselves, and choose, quite freely, to seal ourselves in a world in which we choose self-worship as the only means of remaining self-justifying. That world, of course, is hell.

I do not see how that is relevant to the point?

That is why it is so important to develop a sense of admitting to “being wrong”, and to guard against self-justification. But again, I submit that all people do this to one degree or another. I believe Jesus said something to the effect that even the just man sins seven times a day. And sometimes that just man does not admit that some of them were sins.

Again, you seem to be confusing the concept here. No one is claiming some are without sin. What I am claiming is there are folks who claim to be justified in sinning because they are the final authority over the Church and over Christ.

 

[CRW]

What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.

God so love the world he gave his only son. His son died on the cross for you. He loves you and above all, died on the cross that you would share eternal love with him.

Many post suggest reading books and they are all good.

May I suggest that you make an appointment with your priest, deacon or may be a nun and set down and discuss these issues? I also suggest that you offer your struggles to the Blessed Mother. As her son, she loves you. God Bless and may all offer prayers for you who post.

 

[Texan_in_DC]

1st of all there is ex comunicated and auto ex comunicated.

So depending on what your partially Cafeteria on will depend if you have already automatically left the Church. This does not mean you are going to hell or you cannot come back to the Church, but you could be outside of the communion of the Church just like our other protestant christian brothers and sisters.

I would hope that you look at what you disagree with and find out why, and try your hardest to stay within the teachings of the Church, the bible says do not trust your heart and there might be varioius reasons for your views and feelings but bottom line Jesus Christ set up His Church, a Church that could lead His sheep infallibly to the end of time, even if we disagree, object, or fall away in sin, the Church with the Holy Spirit will always be there with open arms.

As a new Catholic, I hope you at least go to an RCIA class or classes, study both aplogetic sides of your views, so that you can better understand why we teach X or O even if you might disagreee.

You seem like a smart guy and are open enough to explore your true beliefs, I wish you luck on your Journey to the Truth.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Absolutely not. If every person who at one time or another questioned God’s revelation left the Church, Hell would be overflowing.

Take each of these issues to prayer. Do it one-at-a-time starting with the one you find the least objectionable or difficult to overcome. Ask for counsel, comfort, wisdom, knowledge from teh Holy Spirit. In the meantime, do your best to obey and assent to the Church on the matter at hand. Forget about what you think and desire. Just ask for the capacity to accept what God thinks and desires. God’s love for you is perfect so there is nothing that He thinks or desires for you that is not in your best interest.

Personally, I’d start w/ going to Mass on Sunday as all it requires is a commitment of the will verses a reconciliation of our reason. Approach it as a penitential act of charity to God or your fellow parishioners who need to see you there in prayer.

 

[Denise_Shae]

Sheesh, Denise. And I was having such a good day in my blissful delusion!!!

I’m thinking I’ll fast for the rest a my life and maybe I’ll squeek into purgatory.

Sorry for spoiling your delusion, A22.

Those words just jumped out of my monitor and hit me like a ton of bricks.

BTW: For some reason, I stopped receiving “Instant E-Mail Notifications” on my subscribed threads.
I haven’t been to my Control Pannel to change my settings or anything.
Is this happening to anyone else?​

Thanks and God Bless!

 

[omg]

Now regarding BIRTH CONTROL and the Church being a sin or not your not going to tell me all the Catholic’s on this site are following the Churches RULE on BIRTH CONTROL if they are then you need be a Saint to be on this site. Not to worry you will be fine there is nothing wrong with dout just do some research and get some answers but most important thing to do is no matter what you feel and dout never stop praying never always pray,pray ,pray and it will get you out of what ever it is you are going thur. Talk to your Priest, I will be the first to admit that there are many things I question in our Church but God gave us a mind and if you don’t question and look into things you will never know, but it dose not make you less a Catholic, like a priest told me once , IT IS NOT EASY BEING A CHRISTIAN it will always be a struggle till Jesus comes for us.

GOD WILL NEVER ABONDON YOU , HE WILL BE WITH YOU THUR IT ALL.

 

[omg]

Pug,

I know what you mean! It’s such a mixed feeling. I’ve really got to get over that. I’ve got to trust in God’s mercy…need to pray the Divine Mercy more!

I love that prayer, especially when you sing it. I find peace there.

Pax!

AMEN
I FEEL THE SAME WAY AND YES PRAYER IS SO CONFORTING AT ALL TIMES

 

[Crumpy]

What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.

I’ve been reading commentaries on Genesis and Exodus, and the righteous people in the stories are those who take God very seriously. And, that is what I’ve found in all the earlier Bible reading and study that I’ve done.

You are questioning the authority of scripture, tradition, and the Church. Well, that’s a starting place!

The Jews have believed for millenia that the overriding command in the Hebrew Bible is to know God and to serve God, which are almost identical. Both of these depend on studying the Torah, the written Torah in the Bible and the oral Torah of tradition. The Catholic Church rests its teaching on scripture, apostolic tradition (beliefs and sacred customs since apostolic times), and the ongoing spiritual leadership of the Church.

Jesus command was to “repent and believe.” You can’t believe, in other words, until you rise up from the muck of skepticism and sin and see what the truth looks like.

Tired on Sundays? Why not knock off the drugs and booze on Saturday night and get some good rest, then go to Church on Sunday morning?. God’s “rest” did not mean sleeping all day or watching the games on TV. It certainly did involve detachment and refreshment from the stuff we do all the other six days a week, but there was a purpose in it – to raise our consciousness back to the seventh day of creation, which was a day for worshipping God.

Sober up, my friend.

 

[LilyM]

In regard to the ‘not attending Mass because I’m too exhausted/busy …’ line of reasoning. My priest made a great point some time back about this very thing.

Jesus said ‘come to me all you who labour and are heavy burdened, and ***I ***shall give you rest’. Not ‘go sit in front of the tv’, ‘go relax with your favourite book’, ‘go indulge in your favourite pastime or hobby, whatever it may be’.

Where Christ is, there is the ultimate rest, and He is nowhere, REST exists nowhere, more than in Mass. And the busier you are, the more exhausted and frazzled you feel, the more you need HIS rest, not these other distractions.

 

[FM927]

Now regarding BIRTH CONTROL and the Church being a sin or not your not going to tell me all the Catholic’s on this site are following the Churches RULE on BIRTH CONTROL if they are then you need be a Saint to be on this site. Not to worry you will be fine there is nothing wrong with dout just do some research and get some answers but most important thing to do is no matter what you feel and dout never stop praying never always pray,pray ,pray and it will get you out of what ever it is you are going thur. Talk to your Priest, I will be the first to admit that there are many things I question in our Church but God gave us a mind and if you don’t question and look into things you will never know, but it dose not make you less a Catholic, like a priest told me once , IT IS NOT EASY BEING A CHRISTIAN it will always be a struggle till Jesus comes for us.

GOD WILL NEVER ABONDON YOU , HE WILL BE WITH YOU THUR IT ALL.

OMG, truer words were NEVER spoken!!!

 

[Pax]

What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.

I once shared your mindset on some of these things and would properly describe myself as a cafeteria Catholic. For me, leaving the Church was out of the question. I knew that whatever my disagreements might be with the Catholic Church, they were nothing compared to the disagreements I had with non-Catholic Christian traditions. The solution for me came by way of grace and an epiphany. The Lord gave me a flash of insight that informed me just how wrong I was about the Church’s teachings and that the Church was right.

This event was one of the most liberating spiritual experiences of my life. It was with great joy that I did what C.S. Lewis described as “raising the white flag of surrender in the rebel fortress of my heart.”

The Lord is good, kind, generous and merciful.

God bless.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What about someone like myself who is questioning the Church on some things. For instance I think it’s ok to miss Mass just because of many things and it’s not a mortal sin. If you’re exhausted and want to stay home on Sunday I think it’s okay, since the original thing God wanted was for people to rest. Some people just can’t bear to leave their home on Sunday and they want to sleep.

Also, I think birth control use isn’t a mortal sin. I look at it more as an ideal, but there are alot of variables. Some people are just so darned fertile, they have strong sexual desires. Sex is a strong instinct, but it’s just not practical to have alot of kids these days and not everyone is disciplined enough to be organized to do the natural way.

I suspect that Christ is probably present when other churches have their communion. I just can’t believe the Jesus would not come to them too, even if they don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

I also think that people purely get saved by grace, and that it doesn’t matter if they’re bapitized, and that God is easy going and doesn’t want people in Hell.

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.

That is all compatible with the OT’s being inspired. But why should a Christian belief be mentioned in a non-Christian book ? That’s like expecting a modern Greek Orthodox Christian to compose a prayer to Olympian Zeus The Jews had to be made to realise, in an environment stuffed to the gills with pantheons of many gods, that there was only One God. It took them no end of trouble to learn that lesson, which Christian children take for granted - and adults. To start havering on about three Persons within the one Godhead would have required OT Jews to have NT presuppositions & post-NT vocabulary, & would have been next to impossible to keep from turning into one more polytheism, all over again. Not least because the ancient world was full of triads - which is why anti-Trinitarians go on about the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity being pagan.​

Revelation is made gradually, and within history, to men in particular cultural enviroments. What the environment is, affects what the hearer makes of it. The doctrine of the Blessed Trinity could not be thrown at people as though it were one peanut in a pile of peanuts - it makes no sense unless other things are understood first. One might as well expect a toddler to be competent to lecture at a university. Some things cannot happen, unless other things have happened.

IMHO, you should definitely not leave. FWIW.

 

[a_cermak]

another thing is that I don’t really think that the Old Testament is divinely inspired. I think the Old Testament Jews had alot of archaic and superstitious customs, and were to harsh in their laws. I think alot of those old Jewish laws were purely cultural. After all, they don’t even mention the Trinity in the Old testament.

I am a Jewish person and I think much of the Law was the result of one ethnic group’s experiences, trials and travails and the oral traditions that developed up around that.

In other words, although I do believe it was divinely inspired, it wasn’t dictated by the Almighty (as the Koran allegedly was) or divinely chiseled in stone (the gospel of DeMille) and there’s no way in heck I’m gonna blame genocide or human sacrifice on the Almighty.

Also many of the stories are just that, stories–meant to make a point. The rabbinate has a lot of commentary on that kind of thing.

 

[agbasinger]

Well…Let’s see what John Martignoni says on this topic jsut to get a perspective:

John makes a very good point. My philosophy is that if I have a question as to why the church teaches something, then the responsibility (as a Catholic) is mine to look into the reasons for those teachings and inform my faith so that it amkes sense. I have discovered that the church does not teach anything, “just for drill”.
Blackie

fantastic find!

 

[omg]

Well…Let’s see what John Martignoni says on this topic jsut to get a perspective:

John makes a very good point. My philosophy is that if I have a question as to why the church teaches something, then the responsibility (as a Catholic) is mine to look into the reasons for those teachings and inform my faith so that it amkes sense. I have discovered that the church does not teach anything, “just for drill”.
Blackie

I have found thur my Catholic walk as you grow older and see things and look back to all the changes in the Church (which for me I do not agree on alot of them) But I don’t look at the Politics or we need to do this and that or it is a SIN, sin is doing something against God and knowing it is wrong when we are doing it, but questioning the Church and it Ruels or some of then dose not make you less a Catholic it makes you stronger I think because you will research and see and then take it from there, I went to Catholic School all my life and back in the 60’s everything we did was a sin if we taked to a boy the nuns wanted to know what we were talking about and what thoughts we had when talking to them it was not a good time for many kids my age growing up in Catholic School.
That is why now as Catholic adult I focus on the Cross on Jesus and not on the Rules and Politic I know my personal relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirt is awsome because I feel them at all times with me but I am just sharing my experencce with who ever wants to take from it if not that is ok to. BUT JESUS IS LORD AND MY SAVIOR AMEN TO ALL.

 

[omg]

Just remember that the overwhelming majority of Catholic couples use some form of birth control, and not NFP. So you are not alone there. They haven’t left, so why should you?

THANK U- SO TRUE:thumbsup: