"If it FEELS good, then it must be right." -Mormons

[KathleenGee]

Annie,

Using feelings and being nice to affirm true revelation is like putting the cart before the horse, or putting too much credence into the effect.

The issue is what is it that you are referring to? What integrity of faith does your cause have? What is the supportive evidence to prove your claim? What are your references, how were they derived to prove something?

God gave us a mind to use. Reason had to be applied. Christ used it in his parables…the use of native intelligence…the native use of reason to ensure one would not make bad decisions for one’s life. A new and thriving organization always has its set backs when individuals begin to ask deeper and challenging questions. So you have to think and study more and then further define your beliefs…

But the important thing is that they always use Jesus Christ and how He was communicated to us through His apostles from the very beginning to make sure we are understanding Him all down through the ages the way Our Lord intended.

The challenge is the constant need to understand the Word of God and live out faith in the times we are living in, and ours is particularly uncertain and unpredictable.

All the greater need for the use of reason, not feelings. The Nazis felt real good killing the Jews in concentration camps, and some even went further in how they discarded them. So feelings are not the criteria to prove we are righteous or are on the right way.

This is why Jesus said that those who do the will of the Father, not those who perform miracles or heal or do all sorts of wondrous deeds, will be saved. Our feelings are most deceptive.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In our homily last week, one of our Deacons said, “Jesus calls us to follow Him”. This is taught as central to being Catholic, and is heard often in homilies. The question must be asked, “Where?” The answer is to the Cross.

How does this feel? Profoundly difficult, and profoundly correct. Why would I choose to live this way? Because I cannot save myself Annie B. In God’s love, I have true and complete happiness. It is not something I generate from myself.

 

[lax16]

WHile I do not agree totally with the title of this thread, I do have a question for Catholics (or any religion for that matter):
Do you or do you not “feel good” about your religious beliefs and practices? If you practice or believe something you do not “feel good” about, WHY? Just wondering…
Annie

It feels right to follow the Church established by Jesus Christ Himself.

It doesn’t always feel good, especially living here in Utah, when our house is being vandalized or when my kids are called names.

I love Jesus so much it is an incredible feeling for sure - Mass is a wonderful place to be and fills me with peace - volunteering fills me with hope and a sense of purpose - praying has a calming effect knowing I can pray for things that I can’t personally do anything about (cancer, unrest in the middle east…)…

Yes, feelings are a part of it. And so is logic and so is studying our history. Studying the saints and martyrs is very sobering…

Knowing that Christ rose from the dead giving us hope in eternal life is the greatest feeling of all.

 

[jlhargus]

WHile I do not agree totally with the title of this thread, I do have a question for Catholics (or any religion for that matter):
Do you or do you not “feel good” about your religious beliefs and practices? If you practice or believe something you do not “feel good” about, WHY? Just wondering… Annie

JL: If I have deep emotional feelings when I hear the national anthem does that mean it is God who is inspiring those feelings? Some times at mass I am moved to tears I may think it is the Holy Spirit but I cannot know for sure. It could just be sentimental just as it is with the anthem.

 

[ADouglass]

And how is this germane to the topic at hand? Strange; there is no relevance to what was being discussed.

Brother in Christ, this is a dialogue about discerning truth. Wouldn’t it be helpful for our mormon friends to see information that can give them a better understanding about deception? You asking how this is germane is like asking in an introductory logic class why we must learn the most famous forms of logical fallacy.

 

[ADouglass]

A, how do you recognize when the Holy Spirit is present? Is it possible to recognize the presence of the Spirit? How does God communicate to us or answer prayers? Does he answer prayers in specific ways and never in others? How do we disdinguish between the 'real thing" and when it is a demon making us think it is God?

What should we understand about the resurrected Lord talking with two of his disciples on the way to Emmaus; as he explained the scriptures to them their hearts burned within them? It would seem like God does touch our hearts and that we feel them. Should we ignore all feelings or are there only specific feelings we should acknowledge and ignroe all others?

What we are not talking about is emotions as in liking our dog, enjoying a pizza, or seeing a good movie. These things have nothing to do with the feelings being discussed.

To answer your questions: yes, I believe there is a way to tell if the Holy Spirit is communicating with a person. Can this be put into words? I don’t know. Here is what I do: I am tentative about any thoughts that come to my mind. There are ways to test if the thoughts came from the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from God the Father. Basically, it takes experience. Say I ask God to give a sign whether or not I should do something. Just because I am addressing God, this doesn’t mean that a demon isn’t listening. I have tried trusting that something came from God and not a demon in the past. This led to chaos, but not always. I consider the scriptures and tradition coupled with logic and observation lead one to only one truth. It’s like a sudoku puzzle, only some of the starting numbers might have been put there by demons. However, knowing that if there is a God, He loves us and respects our freedom to choose between good and evil, I can also deduce that which is from a demon, for God isn’t going to allow the puzzle to be incomprehensible or up to personal interpretation. When something doesn’t quite seem right, I don’t go: well I guess I’ll just have to take that on faith. I ask the hard questions. Most religions can’t answer my questions about their faith while remaining consistent with their own doctrine. You know what the sad thing is? I could write out the most consistent proof that what I have come to believe about God is true and people would just laugh, or get angry. I have found that those who rely on faith in the face of contradiction are more than likely to get angry because my very existence proves that they haven’t tried as hard to figure out the truth, or maybe they have tried harder than me, but I am more gifted, so it was easier for me. The typical response when I tell people that my major in college was philosophy is like, “what?” “What a waste of time.” Philosophy isn’t a vocation. Except in my case. I am a state funded philosopher without a post-grad degree. How did this happen? I am not lukewarm. Thus, I was considered to be insane and the sufferer of a chronic mental illness, and thus I am given money since I am considered disabled. The doctors, so aware of the phenomenon of “projection” have succumbed to it. They don’t believe in a God of miracles, so they interepret things like fools. If anyone has read Socratic dialogues, you might realize something amazing. Socrates claims to have a god that helps him know when to avoid something, to avoid bad things as Socrates puts it. We can’t even be sure that a voice we hear that saves a life is really good, because in Socrates case, so much sophistry engulfs whatever he is near that it is obvious this same voice that supposedly kept him safe can’t be relied on for truth. There is only so much one can be tentative about, then there is a lot to be said for being tenacious.

 

[ADouglass]

Some words of an exorcist to think about: only virtue cannot be faked.

Also, we must remember the words of St. John “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” And the words of the Old Testament prophet: If a man prophesies in the name of God and his prophecy does not come to pass, you will know that he is a false prophet. This makes it easy to rule out Joseph Smith since he put actual dates for when his prophecies would come to pass. Later, when his prophecies didn’t happen, his followers added explanations such as “we weren’t worthy for that to come to pass.” I admit, at one point in my life I said “when he makes a false prophecy, he wasn’t speaking as a prophet of God.” Only to realize later that he made it verbally explicit that at the time he was prophecying in the name of God. Good old fashioned research availeth much.

 

[KathleenGee]

The liturgical year has the readings for this weekend on the Gospel of Christ…about who can enter the kingdom of heaven…and the Lord responds that it is those who follow the Gospel.

Considering all in all on internet forums…the homily is that it is so easy to talk about religion…talk is easy. We can profess our beliefs…but then there is a greater degree…so the transitional deacon…who is aspiring for the priesthood…brought up Eric Clayton, the guitarist…fantastic guitarist…

He was in and out of rehab for drug and alcohol abuse…when he was out, all he could think about was alcohol.

Finally, he got to a point where he could finally see he could not get out of this by himself. So he got down on his knees and began to pray to God…he could not help himself.

When he came to God, he came to a living relationship with Christ…and he began in time to do things for Christ…ordinary things…Christ calls us to do…

So to follow Christ, in some ways…it is indeed easy to pray, to call down God’s healing, to be open to sharing communal prophecies…but it is another thing…to just accept God working in the ordinary hum drum of daily life…visiting the sick, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, and so on…just keep a program and stick with it doing these things day in and day out where it seems monotonous, and the poor keep coming in…the numbers don’t go down, you don’t get any accolades, you are not up on a stage, your picture isn’t taken and put on a bulletin board for working in the kitchen cleaning the poor’s dishes…there are days you don’t want to be there…but you are…

This is what Christ is talking about…living the Cross…being the humble servant…walking more and more in faith with little acknowledgment…this is sharing the life of Christ Who is marginalized and set aside from the world…in the gutters, in the rehab, in the ordinary person next to you who is in no position to get you up in the social ladder or get you a job or an important place…to the person who utterly gets on your nerves…and you turn to that person and treat that person as Jesus Christ in total love and acceptance…you that person’s servant…

That is something of the way we should take to heaven…it is the little things around us, the people around us in our ordinary lives that Christ is calling us to…and

Completes the offering of the ordinary gifts of bread and wine to Christ, representing all of humanity, and its day to day humdrum and boredom and routine…to be a most precious offering to the Heavenly Father…our future in His hands, not ours…and so we trust in His mercy…that is all we can do…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mainly, the feeling I have is gratitude.

Mormons have this idea that only they have the gift of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn’t want to be the one standing before God, with an idea like that in my heart.

 

[mtolympus]

Also, we must remember the words of St. John “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

I think you forgot the most important part of this test.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:1-2)

“And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.” (Moroni 1:3) These words were written in about A.D. 420 as Moroni, one of the last living Nephites, fled the Lamanite armies. The record, which he delivered into the hands of Joseph Smith, was a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he did come in the flesh and that through his atonement, all who come to him in obedience may be saved. “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God.” According to John’s test, the visit of Moroni was of God.

 

[ADouglass]

“The one who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but the one who walks in wisdom will escape.”

I don’t mean to be THE teacher to others, starting my own threads and then being the one who has made the most posts. I started this topic and then I just felt like adding to it because, well, I like to research this kind of stuff.

 

[JeanMichel]

By telling him to read ‘Fides et Ratio,’ you are suggesting the Pope would agree with the Mormon ‘burning in the bosom” approach to faith at the expense of reason. Your suggestion if factually untrue.

Have your read it? What does John Paul II say to do when reason conflicts with faith? Please do not put words in my mouth and do not make a synthesis of what I have said. What I have stated is that John Paul II, factually, states that faith should always be maintained, even when the knowledge of man appears to conflict with our faith. I have ASKED him to read it. In fact, I would encourage everyone to read it. After reading it, I would encourage a host of other encyclicals from John Paul II.

 

[mtolympus]

When he came to God, he came to a living relationship with Christ…and he began in time to do things for Christ…ordinary things…Christ calls us to do…

Absolutly beautiful! Christ and the Holy Spirit are there for everyone who calls on God and strives to do his will.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Have your read it? What does John Paul II say to do when reason conflicts with faith? Please do not put words in my mouth and do not make a synthesis of what I have said. What I have stated is that John Paul II, factually, states that faith should always be maintained, even when the knowledge of man appears to conflict with our faith. I have ASKED him to read it. In fact, I would encourage everyone to read it. After reading it, I would encourage a host of other encyclicals from John Paul II.

I have read it, more than once. Reason and faith go hand in hand. What JPII taught, and Pope Benedict XVI continues to teach, is that reason and faith are centered on absolute truths. The first being, Jesus Christ, who is Truth. Reasoning, rightly ordered, is what he is talking about. The dignity of all human life being the highest moral consideration, and something that should not be squandered for something presented as “truth”. Such as abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia, etc.

A person can “reason” how all of these actions are justified, but only by removing first the dignity of human life, in all its stages and/or difficulties. Our justification comes from God, but can be plainly understood by all people of good will, and reasoned outside of faith entirely. But for a Christian, the will of God is never left out reasoning.

What he speaks to mainly, is the modern notion of faith and reason being separate things, when the whole point of this encyclical, and many others, is that this separation of reason from faith, and faith from reason, removes us from our own humanity.

 

[ADouglass]

Have your read it? What does John Paul II say to do when reason conflicts with faith? Please do not put words in my mouth and do not make a synthesis of what I have said. What I have stated is that John Paul II, factually, states that faith should always be maintained, even when the knowledge of man appears to conflict with our faith. I have ASKED him to read it. In fact, I would encourage everyone to read it. After reading it, I would encourage a host of other encyclicals from John Paul II.

I would say yes, let faith supercede reason, if you haven’t been properly trained to reason without committing fallacies.

 

[campeador]

I think you forgot the most important part of this test.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:1-2)

“And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.” (Moroni 1:3) These words were written in about A.D. 420 as Moroni, one of the last living Nephites, fled the Lamanite armies. The record, which he delivered into the hands of Joseph Smith, was a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he did come in the flesh and that through his atonement, all who come to him in obedience may be saved. “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God.” According to John’s test, the visit of Moroni was of God.

Your statement makes no sense.

Moroni could not have delivered anything into the hands of Joseph Smith. They lived 1400 years apart.

According to reason Moroni has failed.

 

[mtolympus]

What I have stated is that John Paul II, factually, states that faith should always be maintained, even when the knowledge of man appears to conflict with our faith.

I love John Paul II and couldn’t agree with this statement more. The Holy Spirit brings us greater understanding. That is why he is called the Spirit of Truth. The Apostle Paul said: “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

No one said we should abandon reason. The choice usually is not between faith and reason; but rather it is between the faith to do the Lord’s will and the fears raised by the opponents of truth.

 

[mtolympus]

Your statement makes no sense.

Moroni could not have delivered anything into the hands of Joseph Smith. They lived 1400 years apart.

According to reason Moroni has failed.

Sorry for my oversight. I forget everyone is not famillar with LDS history. Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel in 1827 and instructed him about the Gold Plates that were translated into the Book of Momon.

 

[ADouglass]

I love John Paul II and couldn’t agree with this statement more. The Holy Spirit brings us greater understanding. That is why he is called the Spirit of Truth. The Apostle Paul said: “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

No one said we should abandon reason. The choice usually is not between faith and reason; but rather it is between the faith to do the Lord’s will and the fears raised by the opponents of truth.

So tell me, what fears do opponents of truth raise?

 

[campeador]

Sorry for my oversight. I forget everyone is not familiar with LDS history. Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel in 1827 and instructed him about the Gold Plates that were translated into the Book of Momon.

You said Moroni was a man, therefore he could not have appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel.

According to reason Moroni has failed.