"If it FEELS good, then it must be right." -Mormons

[ADouglass]

I think you forgot the most important part of this test.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” (1 John 4:1-2)

“And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.” (Moroni 1:3) These words were written in about A.D. 420 as Moroni, one of the last living Nephites, fled the Lamanite armies. The record, which he delivered into the hands of Joseph Smith, was a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he did come in the flesh and that through his atonement, all who come to him in obedience may be saved. “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God.” According to John’s test, the visit of Moroni was of God.

It is so sad that you think that proves the book of mormon is inspired by God. It’s truly amazing how you believe the story so much that you actually think it happened. I could just write a story, invent a character who confesses Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh, claim that I received the story from said character, and start my own church–following your reasoning, I would be of God. Then what happens when I start making false prophesies? The problem with the LDS claim is that who they think Jesus Christ is is a way different concept than what was revealed to me and what is accepted by Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants. So you saying that you confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is just using the name without an understanding of who it represents, and thus renders your faith nearly meaningless. Also, you think confessing Jesus Christ came in the flesh gives you a license to make false prophesies?

I know me writing this will have no effect on you. I’m writing for the benefit of others who might read this thread. BTW, the Holy Trinity is way more simple and elegant than the LDS version of the God-head.

 

[ADouglass]

Oh, and just to make things clear: I confess that God the Father created all there is from nothing through His eternally begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, lived a sinless life, suffered, died on the cross, and redeemed the dead and ascended to Heaven where He is on The Father’s right side. Also, I confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son and that it is always a witness of truth. And, God is changless, without beginning or end. This latter part is something the LDS deny, though not explicitly, but by changing the definition of words or through ignorance.

 

[ADouglass]

I just realized (again) that you must love a child no matter how foolish that child is. The more I read what LDS people say, the more I realize they are still in the child/adolescent stage where they have total faith in their parents or trusted authority figures. It’s like when I was little and met this boy who thought his dad could pick up a house with just his body. I think there are those who are wolves in sheeps clothing however. They realize how easy children are to manipulate, and there is very little to stop them. Just take a look at these kids trying to convince each other to trust their feelings:

lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/30519-warning-new-false-doctrine-going-around.html

I’ve heard that some people like the controlled environment of prison, so they will become repeat offenders just so they can have that sense of being controlled again. You learn a new thing each day.

Seriously, this is a plague.

 

[JeanMichel]

You said Moroni was a man, therefore he could not have appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel.

According to reason Moroni has failed.

Mormons do not believe that angels are a different creature or creation from humanity. For Mormons, angels can be three types of beings: a) human spirits that have not received a body yet, b) humans that have passed on but are not resurrected, and c) resurrected beings.

I looked up a link trying to find support for this: lds.org/scriptures/tg/angels-ministering?lang=eng. I am not sure these quotes support all of them.

If they believed that angels were a different type of being your criticism is well placed. However, in this context Mormons will just ignore your comment I think. For them, Moroni could easily be an angel sent on God’s errand.

They do seem to believe in arch-angels, but only so far as they being important beings in mortality. I don’t think they have any belief in different ranks of angels.

 

[JeanMichel]

I love John Paul II and couldn’t agree with this statement more. The Holy Spirit brings us greater understanding. That is why he is called the Spirit of Truth. The Apostle Paul said: “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

No one said we should abandon reason. The choice usually is not between faith and reason; but rather it is between the faith to do the Lord’s will and the fears raised by the opponents of truth.

We have something in common; for me Pope John Paul II was one of the most dynamic popes of the last several hundred years. He transcends his place in time to be a figure that enhances the lives of all people and leads them all to a greater relationship with Jesus Christ. He was a remarkable man and a true Saint.

I hope you spend some time getting to know him more through his vast number of writings. He is someone that I followed easily and with yearning to learn how to be more holy. I cannot say enough good things about him.

 

[Stephen168]

Dude is a little too casual for an old man; I most often prefer, “my brother in Christ Jesus”. ……………. However, your life experience does not have a relationship to my life experience, my study, my friends, my knowledge, or my family. Let us not be too quick to judge what or who is superior. Some humility is always worth having when dealing with others.

Have your read it?

I think you meant to say “Dude, have you read it?”
Or do you demand charity only for yourself?

 

[KathleenGee]

ADouglas,

Thanks for the link because I know our posts are being very intently read by the Mormon thought control…very little depth…and perspective…they are still searching for the truth but haven’t realized it yet.

 

[JeanMichel]

I think you meant to say “Dude, have you read it?”
Or do you demand charity only for yourself?

Ah, my old friend Stephen, the question was a simple one, without any intonations, spin, or offense intended; again, have you read it? A simple question with a simple answer: yes or no.

However, if yo answer no, please explain to me how you stated what it “factually” said? John Paul II is one of my heros and I have read a great deal of his writings. Not only because he was the pope, but because I love this man for what he did for all humanity.

 

[KathleenGee]

I love John Paul II and have many of his writings here at home as well…

He is a Christian par excellence…and we will continue to learn about his faith – he was orthodox – the correct way of thinking of faith, and he was orthopraxic…the right way of relating to God and neighbor.

 

[JeanMichel]

I love John Paul II and have many of his writings here at home as well…

He is a Christian par excellence…and we will continue to learn about his faith – he was orthodox – the correct way of thinking of faith, and he was orthopraxic…the right way of relating to God and neighbor.

He is one of the examples we have had in our day of the truest of Christians. I feel strongly that we can become closer to God by emulating John Paul II’s example. For me personally he is a Saint.

Now he is someone that gives me a good feeling!

 

[KathleenGee]

JeanMichael…

Totally agree! And noting your name, he was the head of the one of the most organized religions in the world!

 

[Stephen168]

Here is the gist of what I want everyone to realize. Missionaries do in fact ask the potential convert to ignore reason and trust in the “feelings of the Spirit”. One thing I have found about the Holy Spirit is that it will never go against reason. So, how do I know when the Holy Spirit has influenced me? Logic itself is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Reason was given to us by God when He created us. Supernatural occurences do occur: not simply in the form of “a burning in my bosom”, but in ways that either add evidence to, or provide evidence against ones paradigm. Does it lead one to separation from God? Why would God ask someone to ignore evidence and reason?
JeanMichel;7609363:

You may want to read John Paul II work entitled “Fides et Ratio”. It will enlighten your approach to the topic and state clearly when faith is enough when reason fails.

By telling him to read ‘Fides et Ratio,’ you are suggesting the Pope would agree with the Mormon ‘burning in the bosom” approach to faith at the expense of reason. Your suggestion is factually untrue.

Please do not put words in my mouth and do not make a synthesis of what I have said.

I just pointed out what your recommendation suggested; and what it suggested is incorrect.

Have your read it?

not only does this lack charity; it also reinforces your incorrect suggestion that Fides et Ratio would disagree with what ADouglass wrote.

What I have stated is that John Paul II, factually, states that faith should always be maintained, even when the knowledge of man appears to conflict with our faith.

No that is not what you stated. You stated that Pope John Paul II claimed that there are times when faith is enough and times when reason fails thereby suggesting that ADoulass’ post was one of those times. It was not. Also, I cannot find any such statement by John Paul II in Fides et Ratio and if there was it would have to have been taken out of context, because he takes some time condemning fideism.

What does John Paul II say to do when reason conflicts with faith?

He said this will never happen. Knowledge (truth) comes from faith and reason. They both come from God therefore they cannot contradict each other. Twice he quoted the First Vatican Council, “There are two orders of Knowledge, distinct not only in their point of departure, but also in their object.” The objects of faith are the mysteries of God while the object of natural reason is most everything else. To look for the mysteries of God in a science lab is irrational. To look for answers to the physical world by faith is just as irrational. Fides et Ratio would not disagree with anything ADouglass wrote in his post.
If you were being honest, you might ask ADouglass for an example of a Mormon Missionary asking someone to ignore reason and trust in their ‘feelings,’ but you didn’t.

 

[Annie_B]

Annie,

Using feelings and being nice to affirm true revelation is like putting the cart before the horse, or putting too much credence into the effect.

The issue is what is it that you are referring to? What integrity of faith does your cause have? What is the supportive evidence to prove your claim? What are your references, how were they derived to prove something?

God gave us a mind to use. Reason had to be applied. Christ used it in his parables…the use of native intelligence…the native use of reason to ensure one would not make bad decisions for one’s life. A new and thriving organization always has its set backs when individuals begin to ask deeper and challenging questions. So you have to think and study more and then further define your beliefs…

But the important thing is that they always use Jesus Christ and how He was communicated to us through His apostles from the very beginning to make sure we are understanding Him all down through the ages the way Our Lord intended.

The challenge is the constant need to understand the Word of God and live out faith in the times we are living in, and ours is particularly uncertain and unpredictable.

All the greater need for the use of reason, not feelings. The Nazis felt real good killing the Jews in concentration camps, and some even went further in how they discarded them. So feelings are not the criteria to prove we are righteous or are on the right way.

This is why Jesus said that those who do the will of the Father, not those who perform miracles or heal or do all sorts of wondrous deeds, will be saved. Our feelings are most deceptive.

I asked a simple question and your response is not an answer. Thank you anyway

 

[Annie_B]

It feels right to follow the Church established by Jesus Christ Himself.

It doesn’t always feel good, especially living here in Utah, when our house is being vandalized or when my kids are called names.

I love Jesus so much it is an incredible feeling for sure - Mass is a wonderful place to be and fills me with peace - volunteering fills me with hope and a sense of purpose - praying has a calming effect knowing I can pray for things that I can’t personally do anything about (cancer, unrest in the middle east…)…

Yes, feelings are a part of it. And so is logic and so is studying our history. Studying the saints and martyrs is very sobering…

Knowing that Christ rose from the dead giving us hope in eternal life is the greatest feeling of all.

Thank you for your answer! I appreciate it
Annie

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Annie,

I feel good about my faith, its understanding, and its practices. But it is an effect of knowing Who I receive, our consistent history, the lives of the saints. There are times when I experience emotions at Mass or reading the lives of the saints, or reading some theology or reflection that again brings me to Christ. Or I experience emotional depth when serving Christ in others.

At different times, spiritual readings, ecclesial history, lives of the saints can be dry and I have no emotions. But my faith goes forward, but it is always a work of my free will and make effort, which is penitential and has either no emotion, or the only anxiety the Lord accepts–our eternal salvation.

It is our duty as Christians to continually refine our conscience by seeking truth in all things, and that can be painful, uncomfortable and difficult.

So again, as this Sunday’s readings of the Gospel speak about…it is following the will of God, not feelings. Determining God’s will requires prayerful reflection and reasoning applied to the gospels and Christian morality, not feeling about it.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-1.gif

Children…**

 

[ParkerD]

ADouglas,

Thanks for the link because I know our posts are being very intently read by the Mormon thought control…very little depth…and perspective…they are still searching for the truth but haven’t realized it yet.

Kathleen Gee,

You might well want to put your mind to rest about whether Mormons are reading your posts. One or two, perhaps, but offhand I think you can rest assured that only one or two would be doing so. I think from what you have commented at times, that you have the impression this website is being watched or something. I assure you it isn’t. I happened across it from a Google search to see if an article I had written a few years ago happened to pop up on the first page of a search, when instead I found a link to this site (actually a piece of wrong information about LDS beliefs) but also the opportunity to clarify about my beliefs through an open door that I have appreciated on this forum. But I think it is only happenstance that an LDS would find that this site exists.

I have been favorably impacted by reading Bible verses and coming to understand them better through answering questions here, so that has been a happy thing in my life to gain those new insights through personal introspection into the meanings of many verses of scripture which I have come to prize more highly than before.

So it has been a good learning experience in my life to have participated and seen how wise and wonderful God is in His plan of salvation, granting to each person that which they desire from the innermost part of their heart and soul.

God really does bless all humankind with their free will choice, despite the adversary’s influence seeking to counter that free will choice through subtly trying to take it away–but the adversary will ultimately fail, and Christ will be the total victor as He promised. Each person will reap that which they have sown.

Peace to all, and God be with you.

 

[Stephen168]

What I have stated is that John Paul II, factually, states that faith should always be maintained, even when the knowledge of man appears to conflict with our faith.

I cannot find any such statement by John Paul II in Fides et Ratio. He takes some time condemning fideism, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting.

What does John Paul II say to do when reason conflicts with faith?

He said this will never happen.

Knowledge (truth) comes from faith and reason. They both come from God therefore they cannot contradict each other. Twice he quoted the First Vatican Council, “There are two orders of Knowledge, distinct not only in their point of departure, but also in their object.” The objects of faith are the mysteries of God while the object of natural reason is most everything else. To look for the mysteries of God in a science lab is irrational. To look for answers to the physical world by faith is just as irrational.

When a Mormon Missionary asks me to pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon, that is being asking to ignore natural reason, and determine if it is a work of non-fiction by faith (trust my ‘feelings”).

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

I find many, many more posters here having insight and credibility greater than I.

What I do note is that our apostasy thread is still being accessed. I assume it is Mormon missionaries or those wanting to find out how we look at Mormonism.

Mormonism studies Catholicism very closely. I asked you one time to share with me how Mormon services are conducted in its earliest times vs that explained by St. Justin the Martyr around 155 AD. You kindly did, and I respected your sources.The only question I have had is the use of Latin words, like sacrament, that are Roman Latin, the use of the word, canon…vs Joseph Smith’s greater interest in using ancient Egyptian scrolls to explain or support his beliefs.

My intuition tells me----not feelings — that Mormonism draws on the use of language, structure, certain words as I have shared here from the Catholic Church…to create credibility and acceptance and create a new church more accessible and understandable to the public, while at the same time invalidating the Catholic Church belief systems.

Finally, I have had Catholics here encourage me to stay…I am impersonal to a degree because I always have one foot going out the door. One can never convince anyone of anything, unless the person is open to doing so.

You infer that I have no actual faith of my own…in that I only believe what is taught to me. What about priests, sisters, brothers, lay who were raised in Catholic homes, and experienced the call to the religious life and missionary experience…vs many Catholics who don’t have such an experience or draw of the Gospel…

Or how were you drawn to Mormonism…were you born in it? Were you raise in Mormonism…likewise…do you believe because that is all you were taught???

How would the Mormon religion look today as a church if the Catholic Church were not here??

 

[mtolympus]

You said Moroni was a man, therefore he could not have appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel.

According to reason Moroni has failed.

A study of the Bible shows that angels that appear on earth are usually described simply as men that appear unusually white or bright. When Cornelius described to Peter the “angel of God” that had appeared to him, he said, “a man stood before me in bright clothing” (Acts 10:3, 30); and when two angels appeared to the women at the sepulchre, it was written, “two men stood by them in shining garments.” (Luke 24:4; also see John 20:12)
The Bible consistently describes angels as men, not as an altered state but as their normal spiritual form. When an angel appeared to John, he fell at his feet to worship him, but the angel forbade him, saying, “I am thy fellowservant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus.” (Rev. 19:10)
The Old Testament prophets Moses and Elias appeared to Peter, James, and John at the mount of transfiguration. They were angels sent to minister to these apostles. (Matt. 17:3).
These incidents recorded in the Bible are very similar to the appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith in 1827.