If Jesus was really and obviously the Messiah, then why are Jews still adamant that he is not?

[504Katrin]

Christians generally state that Jesus did not contradict the Torah but fulfilled it by means of his sacrifice to humanity. The Nazarene Jews, who believe Jesus was the Messiah but reject His divinity, have an interesting thesis that Jesus intended to probe the depths of Torah teaching beyond that of the rabbis of the era for the purpose of better observance to the details of Torah. Thus when Jesus was accused of working on the Sabbath, if one really understood Torah, one would know He was not working based on the legalistic definitions of work and the moral necessity to care for the ill even on the Sabbath. This teaching is already contained in the Torah but it had to be interpreted in a more profound and meaningful way. The everlasting Covenant applies only to the Jewish people, not to the Gentiles; whereas Jesus desired to bring the Torah to the Gentiles as well, according to Nazarene Judaism.

and also, Catholics correct me if I’m wrong, there was a situation when Jesus and his disciples were going through the cornfields reaping as they were starving and they were accused of working on the Sabbath. It is recorded that he mentioned David when he went to the temple (remember?), and asked for the showbread when they were hungry. The priest asked them if they had been pure and David affirmed this. It wasn’t very well explained in the gospel that you’re of course oblidged to save life first before you keep the Sabbath. So if they were starving to death on that day they were reaping corn they didn’t violate the Sabbath.

 

[504Katrin]

Well it IS everlasting…AS long as you don’t break it!

Or do you expect it to be everlasting no matter what?

Peace

NOT ONCE did G-d say so. Show me where he did!

What he says basically is this: If you don’t go with the law you will have to face the consequences, which means you’re not rewarded but the contrary, but never ever did he say he would leave us behind.

Some Torah Scholars say that if you turn your back on Torah willingly and completely, you’re not considered a Jew anymore except for one law that still remains. And this is the law of Teshuva (repentance). So if a Jew totally turned his back on the Torah, he could still return under this law of Teshuwa. Let me tryna explain this with an example. Imagine a cord that is tied to you. A cord is made out of many single strings. Lets say someone wants to cut this cord, he can cut all the strings but the one string that can’t be cut. Is the person still tied to the cord even though the cord might be very thin? Of course he is. This one single string that remains is the law of Teshuva. It is everlasting. Even if you totally turn your back on Torah you’re not lost as there’s this single string that remains.

 

[chosen_people]

The very notion of the Messiah is Jewish in origin. The Jewish people have been for centuries studying the Tanakh which gives the specifics of the criteria the eventual Messiah will fufill. So why, if Jesus is obviously this Messiah, then why does the Jewish religion and people as a whole reject him?

Certainly to my mind Jewish people would have the best idea of who the Messiah is and so would have been able to recognise Jesus if he really was the Messiah?

The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
2. be anointed King of Israel
3. return the Jewish people to Israel
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5. bring peace to the world and end all war
6. bring knowledge of God to the world

We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.

Christianity couldn’t overcome the defect of their leader not fulfilling a single one of the six criteria, so they created the concept of “faith” in the Christian leader to overcome this defect. Of course, they were still stuck with the non fulfillment of the criteria for the Jewish Messiah ben David, so they also came up with the concept, which has no basis in Jewish scripture, of the “second coming”. So Christians say, Jesus didn’t have to fulfill the six criterion of the Jewish Messiah ben David ( (which ironically are the way to identify the Messiah ben David), and they say you can put off the fulfillment of these criterion, until Jesus comes back to life on earth a second time. However, if this is true, can’t anyone claim that a beloved deceased relative was a good and righteous man and is in fact the Messiah ben David?. Of course, They’ll have to wait until he returns to know if they are correct in their assumption, however they can claim to have “faith” that they are in fact correct.

That left Christianity with two problems. If the Christian leader didn’t bring about the state of things as stated in the six criteria, what did he do and under what other criteria can they claim that he was the Messiah ben David?

If we read the Christian scriptures, we see that the Christian leader made a couple of egregious misquotes of the Jewish scriptures. None the less, he did say a few really worthwhile things. However, it turns out that these things were lifted from the Jewish scriptures and presented as if original to Jesus in the Christian scriptures.

Here are just a few of many concrete examples:
Psalms 37;11
'but the humble shall inherit the earth, and delight in abundant peace"

becomes in Matthew 5:5 (the sermon on the mount)
‘Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth’

Psalms 24:3-4
“Who may ascend the mountain of Hashem and who may stand in the place of sanctity?One with clean hand and pure heart;”

becomes in Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”

Lamentations 3:30
“Let one offer his cheek to the smiter, let him be filled with disgrace”

becomes in Matthew 5;39

“…but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also…”

So Christianity found itself rejected by Jews, since from a Jewish perspective it was clear that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria of the Messiah ben David. In as much as he was rehashing Jewish scriptures, that too was not impressive to the Jews.

 

[chosen_people]

In this regard, it should be mentioned that Jesus is mentioned in the Torah as a test of the Jewish people’s faith to God and the eternal covenant:

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Jesus is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

God tests the Jews to keep the eternal covenant between Him and the Jewish people. From a Jewish perspective, for a Jew to “believe” in Jesus is a failure of God’s test. While Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as the Gentile has only to uphold the seven Noahide commandments, the penalty of failing God’s test for a Jew is to be separated forever from God in the World to Come.

Matthew,Mark;Luke and John are the putative authors of their respective Gospels, only Matthew and John are mentioned as disciples and witnesses to to events in the life of Jesus. Mark and Luke did not claim to be eyewitnesses to events in Jesus’ life.

Now we know that the Gospel of Mark (who was not an eyewitness) was the first synoptic Gospel since Matthew copied about 90% of the Gospel of Mark (600 out of 660 verses) and Luke copied over 50% of the Gospel of Mark. Now if Matthew really was a disciple and a witness to events why would he need to copy Mark and rely so heavily of Marks version of events ? (why would he refer to himself in the third person in Matthew 9:9?). Which leaves us with John which contains material not found in Mark, contradicts events reported in Matthew and Luke and contains none of the" historical material" contained only in Matthew and Luke such as infancy and childhood.To make matters even more complicated, whenever they reported "historical material"l not found in Mark (on whose Gospel they obviously relied) and although they were not eyewitnesses, they contradict each other and make alterations and additions to Mark’s Jesus story.

The Epistles make no mention of the Gospels which strongly suggest that the Gospels did not exist until after the Epistles were written. Although this earliest Christian document was written much closer to the alleged lifetime of Jesus, the Epistles speak of a divine being with virtually no reference to physical events on earth or in history. There are no sayings of Jesus, or parables, or miracles or details about his life. There is no crucifixion mentioned, no empty tomb, no alleged rising from the tomb.

Although Christian scholars put forward that the Gospels existed in some form by the late first century of the common era, the first time there is a written reference to a Gospel is a reference to the Gospel of Mark in 125 c.e. and the first written reference to all four Gospels is in 175 c.e.

Now although Christians believe that a god had literally come down to earth, this was missed by every one of the 41 historians who lived during the first and early second century, who wrote about Judea and Rome and whose works have survived. Not a single one of them mentioned Jesus, his alleged disciples, his apostles or any of the miraculous events described in the Gospels.

The lack of sources outside of Christianity has led to reliance on forged passages from Josephus and even trying to interpret Talmudic passages as somehow referring to the Jesus figure. Now Jesus may have existed historically but there is little or no credible evidence supporting his existence.

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated,that in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

 

[Brendan_64]

Even in light of Scripture the ancient Jews didn’t understand that the Messiah would be God who dies in humility, but a hero rescuing Israel from the grips of foreign invaders, why even the Apostles were not at first on the ball in grasping such an idea.

IF ANYBODY WANTS TO CORRECT ME, I will happily be so corrected, but as for the Jews today, I think they’re still looking around for that Savior of Israel Messiah, to defeat its enemies once and for all. We may see that very thing in Jesus’ second coming, who knows?

The Jews were too caught up in the physical Earthly kingdom that they occupied. Jesus said that his, “Kingship was not of this world”, the freeing of the Earthly kingdom of the Jews was not his mission, it was not his concern. He was not a messiah simply for the Jews, he was the Messiah for all mankind.

The Jews also misinterpret Isaiah when they view the Suffering Servant as being Israel. The Suffering Servant cannot be Israel, because the Suffering Servant must be one who is completely innocent, and Israel is not. The only person who could possibly be innocent and without any taint of guilt could be God. The Messiah had to be God Himself, incarnate as man, in order to fulfill the prophecies.

 

[chosen_people]

Numbers 23:
19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind

The Eternal One of Israel does not lie and does not relent, for He is not a human that He should relent (! Samuel 15:29)

“…I will not carry out My wrath; I will not recant and destroy Ephraim, for I am God and not a man…” (Hosea 11:9)

“Do not rely on a son of man, in whom there is no salvation” (Psalm 146:3)

Time after time it is explained in the Jewish scriptures that God is not a man, nor the son of man.

Jesus was born, lived and died as a Jew. The original Christians, the Christians who had known Jesus, made up of his family and disciples, as Jews did not conceive and as Jews could not possibly have conceived that Jesus was a god. The Christianity of today derives not from Jesus but from Paul, a man who arrived on the scene 15 years after the execution of Jesus and who had never seen or met Jesus.

Time after time in the Jewish scriptures God emphasizes that He is alone and that there is no other. If God was really three, part of a trinity why didn’t He clearly say so?

see Deut. 4:39, Deut 32:39, 2 Kings 19:19, 1 Chronicles 17:20, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 45:5,6

The prophet Isaiah clearly states that the Messiah ben David will fear God Isaiah 11;1-3
Logically God cannot fear Himself nor is it rational that God fears anything. Isaiah’s prophecy destroys the Christian claim that Jesus is '‘god’.

 

[chosen_people]

Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) writes why Jews believe that Jesus was wrong to create Christianity and he laments the pains that Jews felt as a result of these new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism. However, Maimonides then goes on to say that God has made this happen for a purpose:
Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, “And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled” (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides God. However, the thoughts of the Creator of the world – there is no force in a human to attain them because our ways are not God’s ways, and our thoughts not God’s thoughts. And all these things of Jesus the Nazarene, there is no (purpose) but to straighten out the way for the King Messiah, and to restore all the world to serve God together. So that it is said, “Because then I will turn toward the nations (giving them) a clear lip, to call all of them in the name of God and to serve God (shoulder to shoulder as) one shoulder.” (Zephaniah 3:9). Look how all the world already becomes full of the things of the Messiah, and the things of the Torah, and the things of the commandments! And these things spread among the far islands and among the many nations uncircumcized of heart. (Hilkhot Melakhim 11:10–12.)

 

[Brendan_64]

T
Jesus is a false prophet. Deuteronomy 13:1-4

Incorrect.

Deuteronomy 13:1-
“If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jesus did not tell people to serve another god. Jesus NEVER did this. The God he told people to serve was the God of Abraham. A false prophet will give signs and wonders that come to pass AND tell the people to worship another god. Jesus was not a false prophet.

 

[Brendan_64]

Time after time in the Jewish scriptures God emphasizes that He is alone and that there is no other. If God was really three, part of a trinity why didn’t He clearly say so?

Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…"

Genesis 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us…"

I don’t think that God is talking about himself as being part of a pantheon here, do you? He clearly was one God, so where does the “us” come from?

 

[chosen_people]

God was his father.
A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
Birth:
He was born in a cave or cowshed.
He was born on December 25th or January 6th
His birth was prophesied by a star in the heavens.
Ministry:
At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
His followers have the chance to be born-again through baptism in water.
He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
He had 12 disciples. At first he was not recognized as a divinity by his disciples but he was transfigured before them.
He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
He died “as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.”
He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
He was wrapped in linen and myrrh.
After death, he descended into hell.
On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
He later ascended to heaven in glory.
His titles:
God made flesh.
Savior of the world.
Son of God.
He is “God made man,” and equal to the Father.
He will return in the last days.
He will judge the human race at that time.
His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual of bread and wine

Oh wait. That was the god Osiris-Dionysus who was worshiped around the Mediterranean basin in the period leading up to the birth of the Christian leader (which was either no later than 4 b.c.e. (the death of Herod) or was in 6 c.e. (the year of Roman census) - you choose).

Fact: Jews also don’t believe in Osiris-Dionysus.

 

[chosen_people]

Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…"

Genesis 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us…"

I don’t think that God is talking about himself as being part of a pantheon here, do you? He clearly was one God, so where does the “us” come from?

Bereishit (Genesis) 1:26
“Let us make man”

This indicates that Man was created with great deliberation and wisdom. God did not say “Let the earth bring forth” as He did with other creatures; instead Man was brought into being with the deepest involvement of Divine Providence and wisdom (Abarbanel)

Targum Yonatan paraphrases: " And God said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of the Creation of the world “Let us make Man.”

When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let “us” make ), which is in the plural and implies (God forbid) that there is more than one Creator, he said “Sovereign of the Universe! Why do you thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities”? “Write!” God replied. “Whoever wishes to err will err…instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels” (Midrash). Thus God taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initiatives, and He was not deterred by the possibility that some might choose to find a sacriligious implication in the verse. The implication of God’s response, “Whoever wishes to err,” is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

3:22
“Behold Man has become like the Unique One among us”

By eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Man had become like the Unique One among us, meaning that he had become unique among the terrestial ones, just as God is unique among the the celestial ones, for now Man can discriminate between good and bad, a quality not possessed by cattle and beasts (Rashi following Targum).

 

[Brendan_64]

3:22
“Behold Man has become like the Unique One among us”

By eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Man had become like the Unique One among us, meaning that he had become unique among the terrestial ones, just as God is unique among the the celestial ones, for now Man can discriminate between good and bad, a quality not possessed by cattle and beasts (Rashi following Targum).

But it was God who said that, not one of the terrestrial beings. If God had said it with the meaning that you state the surely He would have said, “Behold man has become like the Unique One among them”. If God meant “them” (as in terrestrial beings) then why did he say “us”? God was speaking in the first person (not the third person) and he was speaking in the plural (not the singular). He was referring to himself as being more than one.

 

[triumphguy]

God was his father.
A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
Birth:
He was born in a cave or cowshed.
He was born on December 25th or January 6th
His birth was prophesied by a star in the heavens.
Ministry:
At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
His followers have the chance to be born-again through baptism in water.
He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
He had 12 disciples. At first he was not recognized as a divinity by his disciples but he was transfigured before them.
He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
He died “as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.”
He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
He was wrapped in linen and myrrh.
After death, he descended into hell.
On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
He later ascended to heaven in glory.
His titles:
God made flesh.
Savior of the world.
Son of God.
He is “God made man,” and equal to the Father.
He will return in the last days.
He will judge the human race at that time.
His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual of bread and wine

Oh wait. That was the god Osiris-Dionysus who was worshiped around the Mediterranean basin in the period leading up to the birth of the Christian leader (which was either no later than 4 b.c.e. (the death of Herod) or was in 6 c.e. (the year of Roman census) - you choose).

Fact: Jews also don’t believe in Osiris-Dionysus.

You’ve been reading Wiki and Wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Mysteries has been telling you about the book, The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freake and Peter Gandy.

On that same page were some critiques of that book.

Despite a wealth of references and footnotes, Chris Forbes, an ancient historian and senior lecturer at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia has criticised the work, noting that Freke and Gandy are "not real scholars, they are popularisers.” He calls their arguments about Jesus "grossly misconceived, and their attempt to draw links between Jesus and various pagan god-men is completely muddled. It looks impressive because of the sheer mass of the material, but when you break it down and look at it point by point, it really comes to pieces.”

Paul Barnett, a New Testament scholar who has authored several books on the historical Jesus, argues that a good proportion of the citations are out of date. “Like the Gnostics, Freke and Gandy have a mystical mindset and therefore oppose Christianity as grounded in history,” he wrote. “They hate the idea that the incarnation of the Son of God and his resurrection could have been a matter of actual flesh and blood and time and place.”

When the BBC approached N. T. Wright, asking him to debate Freke and Gandy concerning their thesis in The Jesus Mysteries, Wright replied that “this was like asking a professional astronomer to debate with the authors of a book claiming the moon was made of green cheese.”

Bart Ehrman, in an interview with the Fortean Times, was similarly asked for his views on the work of Freke and Gandy. Not having read their work, he responded by commenting on the thesis, "This is an old argument, even though it shows up every 10 years or so. This current craze that Christianity was a mystery religion like these other mystery religions-the people who are saying this are almost always people who know nothing about the mystery religions; they’ve read a few popular books, but they’re not scholars of mystery religions. The reality is, we know very little about mystery religions-the whole point of mystery religions is that they’re secret! So I think it’s crazy to build on ignorance in order to make a claim like this.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

uh…Jesus was born in the Summer I believe, but we don’t know when exactly so we adopted the Yule times for Christmas. And I don’t think January is a Summerish month.

As for the rest, I believe most of that is inline with the prophets.

God was his father.
A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
Birth:
He was born in a cave or cowshed.
He was born on December 25th or January 6th
His birth was prophesied by a star in the heavens.
Ministry:
At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
His followers have the chance to be born-again through baptism in water.
He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
He had 12 disciples. At first he was not recognized as a divinity by his disciples but he was transfigured before them.
He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
He died “as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.”
He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
He was wrapped in linen and myrrh.
After death, he descended into hell.
On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
He later ascended to heaven in glory.
His titles:
God made flesh.
Savior of the world.
Son of God.
He is “God made man,” and equal to the Father.
He will return in the last days.
He will judge the human race at that time.
His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual of bread and wine

Oh wait. That was the god Osiris-Dionysus who was worshiped around the Mediterranean basin in the period leading up to the birth of the Christian leader (which was either no later than 4 b.c.e. (the death of Herod) or was in 6 c.e. (the year of Roman census) - you choose).

Fact: Jews also don’t believe in Osiris-Dionysus.

 

[Servant19]

It’s not obvious or everyone who has ever heard of him or read the Gospels would be a part of his Church.

In order to believe one must have been granted faith. It’s a supernatural gift, not something one comes at through reason alone. Reason may point the way, but faith is needed to believe.

One cannot believe without faith, but faith is necessary to believe. This is why it is a gift from God and not an effort of man. Certainly we are to open our hearts and minds to the truth, but if someone simply will not do so, then God usually doesn’t violate that person’s will. There are always exception to this, however, as the conversion of St. Paul demonstrates. But, who is given the gift of faith and who isn’t is in the mind of God and cannot be known by any man.

The buck doesn’t stop once the “faith” has provided belief. You think God would let you sit on your laurels and relax without testing that faith again?

To think that God’s Message to mankind is “complete” with Jesus implies that the Jews were right to reject Jesus. They weren’t…

Your thinking of Jesus as finality requires faith. Maybe relaxing on that God-given faith has allowed you to miss His Presence again, just like the Jews…

 

[Brendan_64]

The buck doesn’t stop once the “faith” has provided belief. You think God would let you sit on your laurels and relax without testing that faith again?

To think that God’s Message to mankind is “complete” with Jesus implies that the Jews were right to reject Jesus. They weren’t…

Your thinking of Jesus as finality requires faith. Maybe relaxing on that God-given faith has allowed you to miss His Presence again, just like the Jews…

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. It is not finished.

 

[Servant19]

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. It is not finished.

…and what that ACTUALLY means requires faith, right?

…or are you saying that your interpretation of the words “judging the living and the dead” is inscribed in rock like the Messiah being the King David prophecy?

 

[Brendan_64]

…and what that ACTUALLY means requires faith, right?

…or are you saying that your interpretation of the words “judging the living and the dead” is inscribed in rock like the Messiah being the King David prophecy?

This is in scripture, just like the Messiah being of the line of David.

Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

John 5:22
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son

Acts 10:42
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

You make the presumption that Old Testament scripture carries more weight and validity than New Testament scripture. That is a false and illogical presumption.

 

[Kaninchen]

Thank you very much. I must say that I do find Judaism a particularly fascinating faith.

Despite having lived in areas with a significant number of Sikhs around, I’ve never known much about Sikhism - other than whenever I’ve tried online religion/attitude quizzes it’s usually the first ‘match’ after the various traditions of Judaism (so it’s obviously a ‘good thing’ ).

 

[Servant19]

This is in scripture, just like the Messiah being of the line of David.

Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

John 5:22
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son

Acts 10:42
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that he is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

You make the presumption that Old Testament scripture carries more weight and validity than New Testament scripture. That is a false and illogical presumption.

…and what about the “anointed King of Israel”? Did He fulfil that prophecy as well?

Of course Jewish Scripture holds weight to the Jews. Its their Messiah after all

Or would you say the Jews should read (and accept the interpretation of) the New Testament to recognize Jesus as their Messiah?