If Jesus was really and obviously the Messiah, then why are Jews still adamant that he is not?

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Even if there was a group of followers of Jesus, there were plenty of other people claiming to be prophets/the Moshiach at around the same time period. And whilst a small number of 12 followers is believable, the only source that exists for thousands of people coming to witness Jesus preach and follow him is the New Testament. Otherwise there is not a single scrap of evidence.
I find it funny that non Christians dismiss the writings of the New Testament, But any writing from that time prieod is accepted and if a scrap for writing is found in a jar out in the desert then it must be true, Also wnat to point out why would a man with just 12 followers be killed for peaching peace?
 
I Also wnat to point out why would a man with just 12 followers be killed for peaching peace?
Exactly.

And anyway, what does it matter how many followers he had a t that time? 12, 20, 100, 1000, 10,000, it matters not. Jesus lived, was crucified, died, was buried and rose again, to redeem mankind from sin. Within a few hundred years, that tiny little sect grew to become the biggest religion on the planet, and has been ever since. That in itself is a testament to the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
I find it funny that non Christians dismiss the writings of the New Testament, But any writing from that time prieod is accepted and if a scrap for writing is found in a jar out in the desert then it must be true, Also wnat to point out why would a man with just 12 followers be killed for peaching peace?
Most other ancient writings aren’t laying down the foundations of a religion and making statements of religious fact. Also, most other texts are backed up by other evidence, either through references in other texts to the same facts/events/whatever, or archaeological and other physical evidence.
 
Exactly.

And anyway, what does it matter how many followers he had a t that time? 12, 20, 100, 1000, 10,000, it matters not. Jesus lived, was crucified, died, was buried and rose again, to redeem mankind from sin. Within a few hundred years, that tiny little sect grew to become the biggest religion on the planet, and has been ever since. That in itself is a testament to the power of the Holy Spirit.
Proving nothing. Mithraism claimed similar following to Christianity and given the same circumstances which permitted Christianity to become the Roman state religion, chances are that today people would be gathered round the tauroctony (a Mithraic altar depicting Mithras killing a bull, whose blood gave everlasting life) chanting hymns rather than being in a church. Ditto Isis worship, Serapis cult, the Persian cult of Ahura Mazda (which gave birth to Zoroastrianism) etc.
 
So how do you account for this tiny little Jewish sect spreading all over the Middle-east and Europe only a short time after Jesus’s death? Twelve followers were solely responsible for all that I suppose?
Politics, and more politics. It really wasn’t that wide spread as you might think, and the Christians that existed then weren’t necessarily Roman Catholics. Once it had the backing of the Emperor of (Insert Nation Here) that’s when it really grew like wildfire. And by that I mean the Roman Emperor, and then any other Empires which Christianity had made an impact upon.
 
The very notion of the Messiah is Jewish in origin. The Jewish people have been for centuries studying the Tanakh which gives the specifics of the criteria the eventual Messiah will fufill. So why, if Jesus is obviously this Messiah, then why does the Jewish religion and people as a whole reject him?

Certainly to my mind Jewish people would have the best idea of who the Messiah is and so would have been able to recognize Jesus if he really was the Messiah?
Israel Is Not Cast Away! God blinded His people, the offspring of Judah, so that their rejection of the Messiah- as a nation - Thereby opens the door for the salvation to the gentiles - to all whom accept the atoning blood of Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God - whose blood washes away all the sins of all who genuinely accept His Blood, the perfect Lamb of God, whom Jesus shed on the cross as the full atonement for all our sins to all who accept it…

This is what was meant in the Bible that the first - (The Jews) -, would be last to be saved, and those who were last - (The Gentiles) -, would be saved first. This is the meaning of what Jesus prophesied, the “1st will be last, and the last will be first.”

The Bible declares that all Israel will be saved when the times of the gentiles entering into the Kingdom comes to an end.

Romans 11:1-36 (New American Standard Bible)

11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 **just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”**

9 **And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”**

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


25 **For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen**

I attend a Messianic Jewish Temple and am seeing many Jews turning to Jesus as their Messiah at many many such Messianic Temples.
 
Most other ancient writings aren’t laying down the foundations of a religion and making statements of religious fact. Also, most other texts are backed up by other evidence, either through references in other texts to the same facts/events/whatever, or archaeological and other physical evidence.
Such as the Guru Granth Sahib I suppose?

And the story about Guru Nanak disappearing under the water and staying there for 3 days. I suppose all that is backed up by historical evidence?
 
That disappearing for three days business has really ancient roots, doesn’t it?
 
That disappearing for three days business has really ancient roots, doesn’t it?
Makes me want to climb a mountain and meditate. Between being Jewish, Muslim, a righteous Gentile (B’nai Noach), Buddhist, Hindu, Christian… it can all give me a headache…

They can’t all be true, but they can all be incorrect. Logically speaking.
 
Proving nothing. Mithraism claimed similar following to Christianity and given the same circumstances which permitted Christianity to become the Roman state religion, chances are that today people would be gathered round the tauroctony (a Mithraic altar depicting Mithras killing a bull, whose blood gave everlasting life) chanting hymns rather than being in a church. Ditto Isis worship, Serapis cult, the Persian cult of Ahura Mazda (which gave birth to Zoroastrianism) etc.
But they’re not are they?

And I fail to see the point you’re trying to make about the number of followers Jesus had when he was alive. It does not matter one iota. What matters is the number of followers after His death and resurrection. Billions worldwide, 32% of the population of the planet are followers of Our Lord Jesus Christ. And still growing faster than any other religion. That is what matters, not the number of followers of Jesus when he walked the Earth as a man.
 
Makes me want to climb a mountain and meditate. Between being Jewish, Muslim, a righteous Gentile (B’nai Noach), Buddhist, Hindu, Christian… it can all give me a headache…

They can’t all be true, but they can all be incorrect. Logically speaking.
The question then arises as to whether they do the individual any real harm?
 
the jewish messiah had to come before the destruction of the second temple
Hmm. Never heard that one before. then again im really out of my element in terms of speaking about Judaism.

Why the specific time frame?
 
Makes me want to climb a mountain and meditate. Between being Jewish, Muslim, a righteous Gentile (B’nai Noach), Buddhist, Hindu, Christian… it can all give me a headache…

They can’t all be true, but they can all be incorrect. Logically speaking.
Ah, but they CAN all be true by some mystical way that only G-d knows and our limited human reason and logic cannot understand. There are many paths to salvation.
 
Hmm. Never heard that one before. then again im really out of my element in terms of speaking about Judaism.

Why the specific time frame?
According to the Talmud, the Messiah must come in or before the year 6000. Each thousand years represents one day of Creation.
 
But they’re not are they?

And I fail to see the point you’re trying to make about the number of followers Jesus had when he was alive. It does not matter one iota. What matters is the number of followers after His death and resurrection. Billions worldwide, 32% of the population of the planet are followers of Our Lord Jesus Christ. And still growing faster than any other religion. That is what matters, not the number of followers of Jesus when he walked the Earth as a man.
It’s pretty simple to understand how this came about. You are trying to peddle a religion. Do you approach people and tell them about your ridiculously complicated religion (Judaism) or one which allows them to do pretty much anything and gives them a direct connection to Gd through His ‘son’? The reason we don’t believe in Jesus is because he fulfilled none of the Messianic prophecies. Trust is, it’s our Bible and we’re pretty fluent in it (just look at all the black hatters in Israel and America) so you can rest assured that we know what we’re looking for. There is no mention anywhere in the OT about a second coming, which is in itself basically a catch-all excuse for Jesus’ failings. I am a traditional secular-ish Jew who has always been proud of his heritage but who ended up falling in love with a non-Jewish girl and had to really question what it meant to be Jewish. Since then I’ve been reading as much as possible, and the more I read of the Tanach in its original Hebrew (alongside Christian bibles) the more aware I become of the terrible distortions it has become subject to throughout the ages at the hands of Christian translators. Christians quote passages here and elsewhere on the web that have been totally fabricated. Conversion of Jews to Christianity is such a tragedy. All those traditions that have somehow been kept alive for thousands of years despite everything are thrown away; the Sabbath dinner, synagogue services, all the festivals, Barmitzvahs etc. Even for those Jews not well versed in Scripture they hold onto their precious Jewishness because Christianity offers them nothing that even comes close to its beauty.
 
But they’re not are they?

And I fail to see the point you’re trying to make about the number of followers Jesus had when he was alive. It does not matter one iota. What matters is the number of followers after His death and resurrection. Billions worldwide, 32% of the population of the planet are followers of Our Lord Jesus Christ. And still growing faster than any other religion. That is what matters, not the number of followers of Jesus when he walked the Earth as a man.
The number of Christians today is irrelevant. Even if the entire Earth was converted to be Christian, it would still not prove its truth. That’s called an argumentum ad populum or authority of the masses argument. You make a logical assumption that because a majority believe Christianity to be true, in a world where people believe fervently in many different religions, then it automatically makes Christianity true simply because it’s in the majority.

The points about the numbers of followers are actually quite relevant in discussing the OP. You’re making claims about ‘thousands’ of followers of Jesus, only historical evidence completely contradicts it. What’s more it also highlights that until the change from conversion of the Jews to conversion of pagans, Christianity remained a small, insignificant cult among many and likely would have remained so without pagan conversions which reached up into Roman society.
 
The number of Christians today is irrelevant. Even if the entire Earth was converted to be Christian, it would still not prove its truth. That’s called an argumentum ad populum or authority of the masses argument. You make a logical assumption that because a majority believe Christianity to be true, in a world where people believe fervently in many different religions, then it automatically makes Christianity true simply because it’s in the majority.

The points about the numbers of followers are actually quite relevant in discussing the OP. You’re making claims about ‘thousands’ of followers of Jesus, only historical evidence completely contradicts it. What’s more it also highlights that until the change from conversion of the Jews to conversion of pagans, Christianity remained a small, insignificant cult among many and likely would have remained so without pagan conversions which reached up into Roman society.
What historical evidence says that there was not thousands of Jews that followed Christ and would have been known as Chritians once the term was coined?
I do not argue that Christianity is true because millions follow it, I argue that millions follow it because it is true.
 
It’s pretty simple to understand how this came about. You are trying to peddle a religion. Do you approach people and tell them about your ridiculously complicated religion (Judaism) or one which allows them to do pretty much anything and gives them a direct connection to Gd through His ‘son’?
The triumph of Christianity from a ‘sales’ point of view was to invent an illness (“you’re all doomed to eternal awfulness”) and prescribe itself as the only cure.
 
It’s pretty simple to understand how this came about. You are trying to peddle a religion. Do you approach people and tell them about your ridiculously complicated religion (Judaism) or one which allows them to do pretty much anything and gives them a direct connection to Gd through His ‘son’? The reason we don’t believe in Jesus is because he fulfilled none of the Messianic prophecies. Trust is, it’s our Bible and we’re pretty fluent in it (just look at all the black hatters in Israel and America) so you can rest assured that we know what we’re looking for. There is no mention anywhere in the OT about a second coming, which is in itself basically a catch-all excuse for Jesus’ failings. I am a traditional secular-ish Jew who has always been proud of his heritage but who ended up falling in love with a non-Jewish girl and had to really question what it meant to be Jewish. Since then I’ve been reading as much as possible, and the more I read of the Tanach in its original Hebrew (alongside Christian bibles) the more aware I become of the terrible distortions it has become subject to throughout the ages at the hands of Christian translators. Christians quote passages here and elsewhere on the web that have been totally fabricated. Conversion of Jews to Christianity is such a tragedy. All those traditions that have somehow been kept alive for thousands of years despite everything are thrown away; the Sabbath dinner, synagogue services, all the festivals, Barmitzvahs etc. Even for those Jews not well versed in Scripture they hold onto their precious Jewishness because Christianity offers them nothing that even comes close to its beauty.
Welcome to CAF 🙂
 
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