If Jesus was really and obviously the Messiah, then why are Jews still adamant that he is not?

[Brendan_64]

…and what about the “anointed King of Israel”? Did He fulfil that prophecy as well?

Act 10:36-38
36 You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 the word which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Of course Jewish Scripture holds weight to the Jews. Its their Messiah after all

He is the Messiah for all mankind, not just the Messiah of the Jews.

Or would you say the Jews should read (and accept the interpretation of) the New Testament to recognize Jesus as their Messiah?

Yes. As all men should.

 

[Servant19]

Act 10:36-38
36 You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 the word which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

He is the Messiah for all mankind, not just the Messiah of the Jews.

Yes. As all men should.

Oh, so He was “SPIRITUALLY” the King of Israel, as attested in CHRISTIAN Scripture

Thankyou, you have answered all my questions

God bless

…just one more question please…

…why are you taking the LITERAL interpretation of the clouds about His Return so LITERALLY then?

It didn’t apply to Jesus’ First Coming, so why does it apply to His Second Coming?

 

[Brendan_64]

Oh, so He was “SPIRITUALLY” the King of Israel, as attested in CHRISTIAN Scripture

Thankyou, you have answered all my questions

God bless

…just one more question please…

…why are you taking the LITERAL interpretation of the clouds about His Return so LITERALLY then?

It didn’t apply to Jesus’ First Coming, so why does it apply to His Second Coming?

All the conditions prophesied about the Messiah’s First Coming were fulfilled, as will the prophesies concerning His Second Coming.

 

[meltzerboy]

The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
2. be anointed King of Israel
3. return the Jewish people to Israel
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5. bring peace to the world and end all war
6. bring knowledge of God to the world

We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.

Christianity couldn’t overcome the defect of their leader not fulfilling a single one of the six criteria, so they created the concept of “faith” in the Christian leader to overcome this defect. Of course, they were still stuck with the non fulfillment of the criteria for the Jewish Messiah ben David, so they also came up with the concept, which has no basis in Jewish scripture, of the “second coming”. So Christians say, Jesus didn’t have to fulfill the six criterion of the Jewish Messiah ben David ( (which ironically are the way to identify the Messiah ben David), and they say you can put off the fulfillment of these criterion, until Jesus comes back to life on earth a second time. However, if this is true, can’t anyone claim that a beloved deceased relative was a good and righteous man and is in fact the Messiah ben David?. Of course, They’ll have to wait until he returns to know if they are correct in their assumption, however they can claim to have “faith” that they are in fact correct.

That left Christianity with two problems. If the Christian leader didn’t bring about the state of things as stated in the six criteria, what did he do and under what other criteria can they claim that he was the Messiah ben David?

If we read the Christian scriptures, we see that the Christian leader made a couple of egregious misquotes of the Jewish scriptures. None the less, he did say a few really worthwhile things. However, it turns out that these things were lifted from the Jewish scriptures and presented as if original to Jesus in the Christian scriptures.

Here are just a few of many concrete examples:
Psalms 37;11
'but the humble shall inherit the earth, and delight in abundant peace"

becomes in Matthew 5:5 (the sermon on the mount)
‘Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth’

Psalms 24:3-4
“Who may ascend the mountain of Hashem and who may stand in the place of sanctity?One with clean hand and pure heart;”

becomes in Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”

Lamentations 3:30
“Let one offer his cheek to the smiter, let him be filled with disgrace”

becomes in Matthew 5;39

“…but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also…”

So Christianity found itself rejected by Jews, since from a Jewish perspective it was clear that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria of the Messiah ben David. In as much as he was rehashing Jewish scriptures, that too was not impressive to the Jews.

Christians argue that the Jewish people were not ready for an abstract and less concrete explanation of the Messiah’s tasks, let alone the idea of G-d as one essence but three Persons within a Trinitarian relationship. Thus the peace that Jesus brought is said to be an inner peace and the Temple a metaphor for the religion of the heart, or perhaps the Church as the new Temple. OTOH, the spreading of the Word of G-d has literally been accomplished by Christians albeit not entirely in the way Judaism would have preferred. There is also the discussion of Jesus as, initially, taking on the features of the Messiah ben Joseph while, in His Second Coming, those of the Messiah ben David. In this way, the two-Messiah theory in Judaism is transformed into a single Messiah who makes two appearances. Now, from a Jewish perspective, this and other interpretations or reworkings of the Hebrew Bible backwards in time with the starting point based on the words and teachings of the New Testament, are a bit forced at best and contrary to Scripture at worst.

I also wanted to ask you where these criteria for the Messiah came from? Surely not explicitly from the Tanakh. Are they intimated in the Talmud or detailed in the writings of the Sages such as Maimonides, Namanides, and Rashi? If so, on what basis have they been formulated?

 

[saveusfromhell]

some very good debates on you tube where a former rabbi now christan debates a rabbi.
one question the rabbi couldn’t answer was that the jewish messiah had to come before the destruction of the second temple and if Jesus was not the messiah then there can be none.
youtube.com/watch?v=Jno5b0tQ5Ck
I think there is the first in the series

 

[meltzerboy]

Christians argue that the Jewish people were not ready for an abstract and less concrete explanation of the Messiah’s tasks, let alone the idea of G-d as one essence but three Persons within a Trinitarian relationship. Thus the peace that Jesus brought is said to be an inner peace and the Temple a metaphor for the religion of the heart, or perhaps the Church as the new Temple. OTOH, the spreading of the Word of G-d has literally been accomplished by Christians albeit not entirely in the way Judaism would have preferred. There is also the discussion of Jesus as, initially, taking on the features of the Messiah ben Joseph while, in His Second Coming, those of the Messiah ben David. In this way, the two-Messiah theory in Judaism is transformed into a single Messiah who makes two appearances. Now, from a Jewish perspective, this and other interpretations or reworkings of the Hebrew Bible backwards in time with the starting point based on the words and teachings of the New Testament, are a bit forced at best and contrary to Scripture at worst.

I also wanted to ask you where these criteria for the Messiah came from? Surely not explicitly from the Tanakh. Are they intimated in the Talmud or detailed in the writings of the Sages such as Maimonides, Nachmanides, and Rashi? If so, on what basis have they been formulated?

 

[504Katrin]

Christians argue that the Jewish people were not ready for an abstract and less concrete explanation of the Messiah’s tasks, let alone the idea of G-d as one essence but three Persons within a Trinitarian relationship. Thus the peace that Jesus brought is said to be an inner peace and the Temple a metaphor for the religion of the heart, or perhaps the Church as the new Temple. OTOH, the spreading of the Word of G-d has literally been accomplished by Christians albeit not entirely in the way Judaism would have preferred. There is also the discussion of Jesus as, initially, taking on the features of the Messiah ben Joseph while, in His Second Coming, those of the Messiah ben David. In this way, the two-Messiah theory in Judaism is transformed into a single Messiah who makes two appearances. Now, from a Jewish perspective, this and other interpretations or reworkings of the Hebrew Bible backwards in time with the starting point based on the words and teachings of the New Testament, are a bit forced at best and contrary to Scripture at worst.

I also wanted to ask you where these criteria for the Messiah came from? Surely not explicitly from the Tanakh. Are they intimated in the Talmud or detailed in the writings of the Sages such as Maimonides, Namanides, and Rashi? If so, on what basis have they been formulated?

Yes, they’re in the Tanach. Let me check where exactly (as I can never remember and give sources off the top of my head) and be back in a minute.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The very notion of the Messiah is Jewish in origin. The Jewish people have been for centuries studying the Tanakh which gives the specifics of the criteria the eventual Messiah will fufill. So why, if Jesus is obviously this Messiah, then why does the Jewish religion and people as a whole reject him?

Certainly to my mind Jewish people would have the best idea of who the Messiah is and so would have been able to recognise Jesus if he really was the Messiah?

Who said the Jew rejected Jesus as the Messiah? If I recall correctly All of the disciples were Jews and if we look at the numbers in the new Testement, That not only included the 12 apostles but thousands of others, not counting women. Your correct question should be why did some Jews not recognise Jesus as the Messiah? There are a lot of didfferent answers to that for submission of power within the Temple Hiearchy and Jewish community. To Looking for A warrior King to through off Roman oppression.

 

[Kaninchen]

Who said the Jew rejected Jesus as the Messiah? If I recall correctly All of the disciples were Jews and if we look at the numbers in the new Testement, That not only included the 12 apostles but thousands of others, not counting women. Your correct question should be why did some Jews not recognise Jesus as the Messiah?

All just conjecture, upon conjecture, upon conjecture.

 

[504Katrin]

I also wanted to ask you where these criteria for the Messiah came from? Surely not explicitly from the Tanakh. Are they intimated in the Talmud or detailed in the writings of the Sages such as Maimonides, Namanides, and Rashi? If so, on what basis have they been formulated?

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon

I Chonicles 17, 11 and 22, 10 / Jeremiah 33, 17

1. be anointed King of Israel

Deuteronomy 17, 15 (be sure to appoint over you a king the L-rd your G-d chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites.)

1. return the Jewish people to Israel

Isaiah 27, 12 (In that day the L-rd will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one.

Isaiah 11, 12 (And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth)

1. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

Micah 4, 1 (But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains)

1. bring peace to the world and end all war

Micah 4, 3 (And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.)

/ Isaiah 2, 4 / Isaiah 11, 6

1. bring knowledge of God to the world

Jesaja 11, 9 (for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea) / Jesaja 40, 5 (And the glory of the L-rd will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the L-rd has spoken)

Ezehiel chapter 37 24-28 sums all those up pretty much, and if there’s one criteria missing he can’t be moshiach.

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [a]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their Gd, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the L.rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”

Chosenpeople is always so nice to provide us with so much info that I just thought I might as well help.

 

[meltzerboy]

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon

I Chonicles 17, 11 and 22, 10 / Jeremiah 33, 17

1. be anointed King of Israel

Deuteronomy 17, 15 (be sure to appoint over you a king the L-rd your G-d chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites.)

1. return the Jewish people to Israel

Isaiah 27, 12 (In that day the L-rd will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one.

Isaiah 11, 12 (And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth)

1. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

Micah 4, 1 (But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains)

1. bring peace to the world and end all war

Micah 4, 3 (And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.)

/ Isaiah 2, 4 / Isaiah 11, 6

1. bring knowledge of God to the world

Jesaja 11, 9 (for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the L-rd as the waters cover the sea) / Jesaja 40, 5 (And the glory of the L-rd will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the L-rd has spoken)

Ezehiel chapter 37 24-28 sums all those up pretty much, and if there’s one criteria missing he can’t be moshiach.

24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [a]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their Gd, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the L.rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”

Chosenpeople is always so nice to provide us with so much info that I just thought I might as well help.

Thanks to you, Katrin, for the verses, and to chosen people for all the information he provided on the topic.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

All just conjecture, upon conjecture, upon conjecture.

So your saying the Apostel and disciples were not Jewish?

 

[Kaninchen]

So your saying the Apostel and disciples were not Jewish?

It’s the (supposed) thousands (“but thousands of others, not counting women”) that I’m suggesting is purely conjectural.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

It’s the (supposed) thousands (“but thousands of others, not counting women”) that I’m suggesting is purely conjectural.

I take it form the Gospels.

 

[Servant19]

All the conditions prophesied about the Messiah’s First Coming were fulfilled, as will the prophesies concerning His Second Coming.

By your own logic, it’s ALL been fulfilled, First AND Second Coming

 

[504Katrin]

Despite having lived in areas with a significant number of Sikhs around, I’ve never known much about Sikhism - other than whenever I’ve tried online religion/attitude quizzes it’s usually the first ‘match’ after the various traditions of Judaism (so it’s obviously a ‘good thing’ ).

Today I took one also, and the result was Buddhism. I knew that the question asking which meat I ate and the spider question were the trap questions. I don’t eat no meat at all, and apart from different methods of how to remove a spider from your house I checked the option “let it live there in peace and eat mosquitos”

 

[Brendan_64]

Today I took one also, and the result was Buddhism.

The one I took said that I was a “Confident believer”, but it didn’t specify in what Faith.

Hey, I just too another online quiz and it tells me I’m suited to be a Catholic (and I didn’t even tick the ‘No meat on Friday’ box either, as in the UK we only have to do that during Lent).
I also took the spider carefully outside on a tissue and it didn’t put me down as a Buddhist.

 

[IAmAKaur]

Who said the Jew rejected Jesus as the Messiah? If I recall correctly All of the disciples were Jews and if we look at the numbers in the new Testement, That not only included the 12 apostles but thousands of others, not counting women. Your correct question should be why did some Jews not recognise Jesus as the Messiah? There are a lot of didfferent answers to that for submission of power within the Temple Hiearchy and Jewish community. To Looking for A warrior King to through off Roman oppression.

Even if there was a group of followers of Jesus, there were plenty of other people claiming to be prophets/the Moshiach at around the same time period. And whilst a small number of 12 followers is believable, the only source that exists for thousands of people coming to witness Jesus preach and follow him is the New Testament. Otherwise there is not a single scrap of evidence.

 

[Brendan_64]

Even if there was a group of followers of Jesus, there were plenty of other people claiming to be prophets/the Moshiach at around the same time period. And whilst a small number of 12 followers is believable, the only source that exists for thousands of people coming to witness Jesus preach and follow him is the New Testament. Otherwise there is not a single scrap of evidence.

So how do you account for this tiny little Jewish sect spreading all over the Middle-east and Europe only a short time after Jesus’s death? Twelve followers were solely responsible for all that I suppose?

 

[IAmAKaur]

So how do you account for this tiny little Jewish sect spreading all over the Middle-east and Europe only a short time after Jesus’s death? Twelve followers were solely responsible for all that I suppose?

I remember asking this very question to a religious scholar who told me (I can’t remember the source either, which is annoying) that estimates of the numbers of Christians in the first 100 years after Jesus’ death numbered only around 1500-2000. This is in a population of hundreds of thousands, if not a couple of million Jews. To put it in perspective, the Jewish historian Josephus wrote about the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD and gave the figure of 100,000 for the Jewish captives taken.