If Jesus was really and obviously the Messiah, then why are Jews still adamant that he is not?

[marktomlinson]

Welcome to CAF

Haha thanks. I really just came on here looking for justification from the Christian side. It’s funny how many fellow Jews have signed up!

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I expect this topic to be discussed in an adult and charitable manner.
Please do so.

 

[504Katrin]

The one I took said that I was a “Confident believer”, but it didn’t specify in what Faith.

Hey, I just too another online quiz and it tells me I’m suited to be a Catholic (and I didn’t even tick the ‘No meat on Friday’ box either, as in the UK we only have to do that during Lent).
I also took the spider carefully outside on a tissue and it didn’t put me down as a Buddhist.

yeah but I didn’t even take it out lol.

 

[Porknpie]

I remember asking this very question to a religious scholar who told me (I can’t remember the source either, which is annoying) that estimates of the numbers of Christians in the first 100 years after Jesus’ death numbered only around 1500-2000. This is in a population of hundreds of thousands, if not a couple of million Jews. To put it in perspective, the Jewish historian Josephus wrote about the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD and gave the figure of 100,000 for the Jewish captives taken.

What is your source?

Good article below. Very detailed as the best one can be. Multiple estimates put the number at 7,500 at the end of the 1st century. See page 436. I’m not endorsing the number either way, just stating as fact.

hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/article/download/430/329

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What is your source?

Good article below. Very detailed as the best one can be. Multiple estimates put the number at 7,500 at the end of the 1st century. See page 436. I’m not endorsing the number either way, just stating as fact.

hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/article/download/430/329

Good articule, thanks. I think that one thing should be clearifed , the number of Jews that accepted jesus as the Messiah before and after the Crusifixion are not the same. I would say that thounsands that belived prior said well guess I was wrong after.

How many that were at the sermon on the mount were like St Thomas? The didfference is Christ never did appear to them for them to place there finger in the wounds.

 

[Servant19]

I think it can CATEGORICALLY be concluded that not ALL Jews believed in Jesus.

As with all the Manifestations of God (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’ullah etc) rejection is EXPECTED.

If it was OBVIOUS that they are who they say they are, where and what becomes of our free will?

Clearly we all have free will, it is an integral part of being human, and God very rarely interferes with it, so if Jesus was very OBVIOUSLY the Messiah, then Jews would have no need for faith any more, it becomes a puppet show. Are human beings puppets of God? If so, what then is the purpose of faith?

The way that God tests His loved ones is to enable spiritual perceptions to guide ones decisions towards Him, to recognize Him and to follow His teachings in the age in which one lives in. And it is a “spiritual” obligation to recognize His Chosen Ones throughout history.

My conversations in this thread have already established that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of being the Messiah through a spiritual/symbolic interpretation of Scripture, not a literal sense.

If the prophecies were OBVIOUSLY fulfilled we become nothing more than mere animals following the instincts of empiricism. Animals follow the OBVIOUS, humans have a much higher capacity than that, or are we just mere animals waiting for the discover the waterfall falling down the mountain?

When we look for OBVIOUS signs, then we are no longer spiritual beings, and that can be seen throughout history with the animalistic acts of the pharisees (and Jesus), the idol worshippers and Quraysh (and Muhammad) and the Islamic mullas (and Baha’u’llah)

 

[RaiseMeUp]

I have read that they believe that He did not fulfill six messianic prophecies. Does anyone know what those six prophecies are and their biblical addresses? A friend of mine and I are discussing this topic and trying to get a better understanding.

 

[AveChriste11]

I think it can CATEGORICALLY be concluded that not ALL Jews believed in Jesus.

As with all the Manifestations of God (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’ullah etc) rejection is EXPECTED.

If it was OBVIOUS that they are who they say they are, where and what becomes of our free will?

Clearly we all have free will, it is an integral part of being human, and God very rarely interferes with it, so if Jesus was very OBVIOUSLY the Messiah, then Jews would have no need for faith any more, it becomes a puppet show. Are human beings puppets of God? If so, what then is the purpose of faith?

The way that God tests His loved ones is to enable spiritual perceptions to guide ones decisions towards Him, to recognize Him and to follow His teachings in the age in which one lives in. And it is a “spiritual” obligation to recognize His Chosen Ones throughout history.

My conversations in this thread have already established that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of being the Messiah through a spiritual/symbolic interpretation of Scripture, not a literal sense.

If the prophecies were OBVIOUSLY fulfilled we become nothing more than mere animals following the instincts of empiricism. Animals follow the OBVIOUS, humans have a much higher capacity than that, or are we just mere animals waiting for the discover the waterfall falling down the mountain?

When we look for OBVIOUS signs, then we are no longer spiritual beings, and that can be seen throughout history with the animalistic acts of the pharisees (and Jesus), the idol worshippers and Quraysh (and Muhammad) and the Islamic mullas (and Baha’u’llah)

I also at one point agreed with everything you said. My difficulty with this way of thinking came to fruition when I understood the concept of Holy Tradition and apostolic succession. I couldn’t believe that those who set at the hands and feet of the Apostles got it wrong or were dishonest. They lived such pure lives!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The main issue, I think, is that the Jewish expectation of the Messiah is that of a Davidic
Warrior King vanquishing all the enemies of Israel once and for all. Jesus did not exactly
come to do that. He didn’t lead an army against the Romans and stuff like that.

I think that is the issue.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have read that they believe that He did not fulfill six messianic prophecies. Does anyone know what those six prophecies are and their biblical addresses? A friend of mine and I are discussing this topic and trying to get a better understanding.

There’s another thread on this topic running at the moment - meanwhile here are a few links on the subject of our view of Messiah:

Judaism 101;

Jewish Virtual Library;

My Jewish Learning;

Chabad.

 

[RaiseMeUp]

According to the Talmud, the Messiah must come in or before the year 6000. Each thousand years represents one day of Creation.

Where is the source for this?

 

[meltzerboy]

Where is the source for this?

I found the following sources: Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin (97A), Rav Kattina; Talmud, Tractate Avodah Zarah (9A); and Nachmanides’ commentary on Torah (Genesis 2:3). However, this theory seems to be based on young-earth creationism, that the earth is no older than 6000 years and will not survive longer than 7000. Only a tiny minority of Jews hold this view of the earth.

 

[Brendan_64]

The number of Christians today is irrelevant. Even if the entire Earth was converted to be Christian, it would still not prove its truth.

Why would we have to prove its truth? Particularly if the whole earth was Christian.

The whole point is to evangelise and save souls, not to engage is a philosophical discussion about trying to rationally prove the truth of Christ’s message. If doing so helps to evangelise some souls, then that is a useful tool, but believe it or not providing rational evidence is not the main ways souls are evangelised.

If, as in your scenario above, the whole world was Christian, then what would be the point of proving that the message is true. There would be a whole world of believers.

The points about the numbers of followers are actually quite relevant in discussing the OP. You’re making claims about ‘thousands’ of followers of Jesus, only historical evidence completely contradicts it.

I made no such claim, and either way the actual numbers are not relevant. What is relevant is the message.

What’s more it also highlights that until the change from conversion of the Jews to conversion of pagans, Christianity remained a small, insignificant cult

You mean a bit like Sikhism was, and still is today?

 

[IAmAKaur]

Why would we have to prove its truth? Particularly if the whole earth was Christian.

The whole point is to evangelise and save souls, not to engage is a philosophical discussion about trying to rationally prove the truth of Christ’s message. If doing so helps to evangelise some souls, then that is a useful tool, but believe it or not providing rational evidence is not the main ways souls are evangelised.

If, as in your scenario above, the whole world was Christian, then what would be the point of proving that the message is true. There would be a whole world of believers.

Belief in something means nothing and does not automatically mean that the concept around which such belief is centred is true. it doesn’t matter if one person, several or everyone believes it.

And I’d find evangelism which does not have logical grounds or which relies on jumping through logical hoops to be highly dishonest.

You mean a bit like Sikhism was, and still is today?

25m people is not by any means an insignificant number. Plus in terms of conversions to the religion and also growth in terms of relative growth against the number of adherents, Sikhism is in the top 5 of religions.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,Akaur, I like this saying.Your Light is the light in all beings, O Creator. All Your Expanse is True.Sort of reminds me of God the Father in revealing His name to Moses when He says I AM WHO AM.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[Servant19]

I also at one point agreed with everything you said. My difficulty with this way of thinking came to fruition when I understood the concept of Holy Tradition and apostolic succession. I couldn’t believe that those who set at the hands and feet of the Apostles got it wrong or were dishonest. They lived such pure lives!

My dear friend AveChriste, Gandhi lived a pure life too, however he could never be considered an infallible authority on God’s Word.

Worthy of note is that there were many Jewish traditions during the time of Christ, yet Christ came and abolished many of them.

Isn’t that what we are discussing? The reasons behind Jewish rejection of Jesus?

If He did not reject the “succession” and “traditions” of Judaism, then they would ALL have become Christians.

The same tests are faced by all adherents of religion when God reveals Himself again. It is the true Judgement Day, just like the Judgement Day faced by the Jews when Christ revealed Himself to them.

 

[Servant19]

The main issue, I think, is that the Jewish expectation of the Messiah is that of a Davidic
Warrior King vanquishing all the enemies of Israel once and for all. Jesus did not exactly
come to do that. He didn’t lead an army against the Romans and stuff like that.

I think that is the issue.

Indeed it is. What do you think would have happened if Jesus did come and LITERALLY conquered Israel with His sword, alone and all-conquering?

 

[Didascalia]

The very notion of the Messiah is Jewish in origin. The Jewish people have been for centuries studying the Tanakh which gives the specifics of the criteria the eventual Messiah will fufill. So why, if Jesus is obviously this Messiah, then why does the Jewish religion and people as a whole reject him?

Certainly to my mind Jewish people would have the best idea of who the Messiah is and so would have been able to recognise Jesus if he really was the Messiah?

Judaism or rather Hebraism lost its way a long time ago, if fact Hebraism began fracturing as far back as the Babylonian exile with the introduction of Talmudist teaching which in my opinion is a rats whisker short of occultism, which has over the centuries replaced traditional Hebrew/Tanakh teaching which very clearly points to Jesus as the Messiah. If a modern Jew asks his Rabbi who Jesus was he will be directed to the Talmud which has created a dreadful slur upon his name and his mothers also. It is extremely difficult to bring evangelism to Jews because you most likely will be labeled an anti-Semite!

 

[Brendan_64]

25m people is not by any means an insignificant number. Plus in terms of conversions to the religion and also growth in terms of relative growth against the number of adherents, Sikhism is in the top 5 of religions.

In the scheme of things, 25 million is a tiny small number compared to the 7 billion people now living on the planet (0.36% of the world’s population). You might arguably be the 5th largest religion (and that is debatable) but the 4th largest religion (Hinduism) has 1 billion followers.

Sikhism is a small regional religion confined primarily to the people from an Indian province. It doesn’t really warrant being placed in the same category, in terms of size, with Christianity (2.1 billion), Islam (1.5 billion), Buddhism (1.2 billion), and Hinduism (1 billion). Chinese traditional religion has 394 million followers, so I’d have thought that gives it a much greater claim to ‘5th place’ in the numbers rankings than Sikhism.

You seem to be placing great store with numbers on this thread, implying significance or insignificance according to the numbers of followers.

 

[504Katrin]

The main issue, I think, is that the Jewish expectation of the Messiah is that of a Davidic
Warrior King vanquishing all the enemies of Israel once and for all. Jesus did not exactly
come to do that. He didn’t lead an army against the Romans and stuff like that.

I think that is the issue.

which isn’t Jewish though. Messiah won’t be someone who “vanquishes all the enemies” but someone who will be a spiritual leader. The concept of Jews is rather that of loving kindness. When Moshiach comes every day will be Shabbat.