If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?

[rcwitness]

That certainly sounds like Herr Doktor Luther. For good or ill, he stood by his faith and sometimes, " what we believe, teach and confess" has to be followed by a " what we reject and condemn." That was written around 1530 and to be honest, the Council of Trent did not conclude until 1563. While the Augsburg Confession and the Council of Trent extrapolated their respective confessions, plenty of things in both confessions emphasized the fact that these were two different church bodies. I believe Lutheranism is still classified as a sect under anathema? catholicdoors.com/faq/qu996.htm, newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm Of course, there are people on the radical side of the Reformation who consider us heretical, too whatisacult.com/lutheranism.html . You can’t win sometimes, so the best you can hope for is God’s mercy and we can be thankful that those people who would consign us to Hell aren’t actually God, to whom such judgment actually belongs

well said

 

[MaryT777]

That certainly sounds like Herr Doktor Luther. For good or ill, he stood by his faith and sometimes, " what we believe, teach and confess" has to be followed by a " what we reject and condemn." That was written around 1530 and to be honest, the Council of Trent did not conclude until 1563. While the Augsburg Confession and the Council of Trent extrapolated their respective confessions, plenty of things in both confessions emphasized the fact that these were two different church bodies. I believe Lutheranism is still classified as a sect under anathema? catholicdoors.com/faq/qu996.htm, newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm Of course, there are people on the radical side of the Reformation who consider us heretical, too whatisacult.com/lutheranism.html . You can’t win sometimes, so the best you can hope for is God’s mercy and we can be thankful that those people who would consign us to Hell aren’t actually God, to whom such judgment actually belongs

It was my understanding the document signed between the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church called the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine Justification removed the anathema from Trent to the Lutheran Church regarding justification and also the “we reject” from the Lutheran side was removed to no longer apply.

The confessional Lutherans did not sign this document though. The Catholic Church has indeed removed the anathema towards Lutherans (Luther said the Church would stand or fall on this issue) regarding justification. The Confessional Lutherans to include the LCMS still stand by this 16th century condemnation of the Catholic Church and its condemnation.

THE JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION: RETROSPECT AND PROSPECTS

On Reformation Day—October 31, 1999—official representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and the Worldwide Lutheran Federation culminated a two-decade dialogue by signing a “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification” (hereafter JDDJ). The document set forth areas of new-found accord regarding the nature of justification as well as areas where disagreements still exist between the Roman Catholic and Lutheran traditions. In addition, both sides officially lifted anathemas pronounced upon one another over four hundred years ago. his is it in summary:

etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/44/44-3/44-3-PP421-434_JETS.pdf

 

[jcrichton]

No problem jcrichton. Hey, I have asked this before, but, are you from an Anglophone country originally?

No… so people don’t understand me in two languages.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The one he was… his own.

…you mean he would start the “reformation” allover again?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But if he agreed with this passage from the Book of Concord:

“as the unanimous consensus and exposition of our Christian faith, particularly against the false worship, idolatry, and superstition of the papacy and against other sects, and as the symbol of our time, the first and unaltered Augsburg Confession, which was delivered to Emperor Charles V at Augsburg during the great Diet in the year 1530 …[10]”

… then I don’t see how he would make such a radical change (as to be a Catholic in communion with Francis ). Or should this passage not be associated with Luther? Or can this passage be explained in a good light?

…well… some would say that he was just thinking out loud and that it should not be taken as demonstratively anti-Catholic…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LutheranScholar]

It was my understanding the document signed between the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church called the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine Justification removed the anathema from Trent to the Lutheran Church regarding justification and also the “we reject” from the Lutheran side was removed to no longer apply.

**The confessional Lutherans did not sign this document though. ** The Catholic Church has indeed removed the anathema towards Lutherans (Luther said the Church would stand or fall on this issue) regarding justification. The Confessional Lutherans to include the LCMS still stand by this 16th century condemnation of the Catholic Church and its condemnation.

THE JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION: RETROSPECT AND PROSPECTS

On Reformation Day—October 31, 1999—official representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and the Worldwide Lutheran Federation culminated a two-decade dialogue by signing a “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification” (hereafter JDDJ). The document set forth areas of new-found accord regarding the nature of justification as well as areas where disagreements still exist between the Roman Catholic and Lutheran traditions. In addition, both sides officially lifted anathemas pronounced upon one another over four hundred years ago. his is it in summary:

etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/44/44-3/44-3-PP421-434_JETS.pdf

The bolded is the pertinent point. The Lutheran World Federation and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America are fairly liberal in their outlook and this ecumenism is reflected in their alliances with other liberal churches such as the Presbyterian Church USA, the Reformed Church in America, the Episcopal Church, the Moravian Church and the United Methodist Church, among others elca.org/Faith/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion. What I personally hope for is a relevant dialogue* directly between* the LCMS and the Catholic Church. I find articles like this one to be far more encouraging firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2013/02/roman-catholics-and-confessional-lutherans-explore-deeper-ties, as the International Lutheran Council does speak for me in matters of interfaith dialogue.

 

[johnnyc176]

Luther was not about Truth he was about pride. So he would still be protestant and would be appealing to those with itching ears and seeking myths…

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. 2 Timothy 4:1 - 5

 

[LutheranScholar]

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. 2 Timothy 4:1 - 5

The bolded above is exactly what Luther accused the Catholic Church of doing ( with the innovations, as he saw them, of Purgatory, Masses for the dead, “miracles” attributed to relics, unprovable legends regarding saints, such as St. Christopher, which I think Luther described as a Polyphemus who never existed, indulgences which had to be paid for, unwarranted authority vested in the hands of one man), hence the attempts at Reform and a return to the basic truths of the Christian Faith. Naturally, Luther wasn’t by himself in seeing the need for Reformation, else his efforts would never have enjoyed the success they did.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

The bolded above is exactly what Luther accused the Catholic Church of doing ( with the innovations, as he saw them, of Purgatory, Masses for the dead, “miracles” attributed to relics, unprovable legends regarding saints, such as St. Christopher, which I think Luther described as a Polyphemus who never existed, indulgences which had to be paid for, unwarranted authority vested in the hands of one man), hence the attempts at Reform and a return to the basic truths of the Christian Faith. Naturally, Luther wasn’t by himself in seeing the need for Reformation, else his efforts would never have enjoyed the success they did.

But during thecourse of it, Luther’s Reformation started to become more political than religious. This is where the self-seeking comes in.

 

[johnnyc176]

The bolded above is exactly what Luther accused the Catholic Church of doing

Well yeah…pride will do that. Jesus Christ and His Church the Catholic Church are One and the Same. That’s what protestantism’s aim is…to separate Jesus from His Church…my will before Thy Will.

 

[LutheranScholar]

But during thecourse of it, Luther’s Reformation started to become more political than religious. This is where the self-seeking comes in.

Certainly. The German nobles of the central and northern areas of the country absolutely saw the advantages they would gain by supporting the Lutheran cause. For one thing, they would be able to keep their money and their labor force at home, rather than send any of it to Rome. Luther advocated obedience to secular authority and he regarded himself as a loyal subject of the Emperor. When the Peasant War started, Luther sided with the nobles. There were people who sided with Luther, Melanchthon, Bugenhagen, Selnecker, Bucer, Chemnitz and the rest because they honestly assented to the articles of the Augsburg Confession and were willing to stake their lives on it, but then you had the self- seeking opportunists who wanted to use their association with the movement to their own advantage. I’m sure it was much the same way with the Henrician Reformation in England.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Well yeah…pride will do that. Jesus Christ and His Church the Catholic Church are One and the Same. That’s what protestantism’s aim is…to separate Jesus from His Church…my will before Thy Will.

That’s a fairly provocative statement, considering Pope Leo X’s rather proud reaction to Luther’s plea for a General Church Council to address the concerns that he posted in the Ninety-Five Theses. Jesus is the Head of His Church, of course He can’t be separated from His own Body and to roundly accuse the movements collectively known as Protestant of seeking to do such an absurdly impossible thing is pretty outrageous and patently false.

The truth of the matter is that Protestantism’s only aim has been to return to the teachings of the Apostles as found in Scripture, some going further than others and yet all having no goal in mind save honoring the Lordship of Jesus Christ and acknowledging Him Alone as the Sole Mediator between us and God the Father. Seeing the charity organizations espoused by Protestants, their missionary work overseas, their influence in establishing the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as First World countries, their willingness to suffer death at the hands of the adversaries of the Faith make that blanket charge of selfishness quite invalid.

 

[johnnyc176]

That’s a fairly provocative statement,.

But True. All the rest is noise.

 

[rcwitness]

…you mean he would start the “reformation” allover again?

Maran atha!

Angel

No, more like the “reformation” never ended. Everyone feels like they can reform things to what they believe is better Biblical doctrine.

 

[Wannano]

Well yeah…pride will do that. Jesus Christ and His Church the Catholic Church are One and the Same. That’s what protestantism’s aim is…to separate Jesus from His Church…my will before Thy Will.

I take your view of Protestantism to be anything “not Catholic”. If you truly believe your own comment that the aim of "Protestants " is to separate Jesus Christ from His Church then you surely must have problems with the Pope jointly commerating the Reformation this fall with the Lutheran Church and others!?

 

[LutheranScholar]

But True. All the rest is noise.

That told me everything I needed to know. Insulting one- liners generally don’t deserve a response. Sorry I wasted my own time. To the other Protestants on here: beware of wasting yours.We have a heritage that most of our families have followed since the sixteenth century and it isn’t one we should hang our heads over, but lift them up. The Wars of Religion fought in Europe and the wars of faith fought in Great Britain led directly to the freedom of religious expression we enjoy today. Let no one shame you for your heritage.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Well yeah…pride will do that. Jesus Christ and His Church the Catholic Church are One and the Same. That’s what protestantism’s aim is…to separate Jesus from His Church…my will before Thy Will.

It may be some protestants view but I don’t think it was Luther’s intent.

I’ve read that there were already about 80 denominations at the hour of Luther’s death and that he was greatly grieved by this.

Anyway, I don’t see him as a villain, I do think he was well intended. Nice to see a mainstream Lutheran branch come to agreement with us on many issues. However, it is the liberal branch of Lutheranism so not sure how far it ever gets in regards to unification.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I take your view of Protestantism to be anything “not Catholic”. If you truly believe your own comment that the aim of "Protestants " is to separate Jesus Christ from His Church then you surely must have problems with the Pope jointly commerating the Reformation this fall with the Lutheran Church and others!?

We can only pray that the gates of hell may not prevail against His Church.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

That told me everything I needed to know. Insulting one- liners generally don’t deserve a response. Sorry I wasted my own time. To the other Protestants on here: beware of wasting yours.We have a heritage that most of our families have followed since the sixteenth century and it isn’t one we should hang our heads over, but lift them up. The Wars of Religion fought in Europe and the wars of faith fought in Great Britain led directly to the freedom of religious expression we enjoy today. Let no one shame you for your heritage.

He spoke the truth. And if some of our seperated brethren take offense, it is of no cosequence to us.

 

[Wannano]

We can only pray that the gates of hell may not prevail against His Church.

And that is a promise Jesus gave isn’t it? It is true that we have different ideas of what we conceive the Church of God to be but His ways are higher than ours. He only has us humans to work with and that must be frustrating. All that has happened within Christendom the past 2000 years must make the devil very happy. We need to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood but with demons and the devil. We need to peel back the layers of human pride and reasoning, get back to the early concept of brotherhood and discover Jesus and His Church has been there all the time. The world will know we are Christians by our love for one another.