If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?

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Yes it will certainly be interesting to see what happens. My point was simply it’s difficult to know who are the real Lutherans are as a Catholic. You note many in the LCMS don’t consider those in the ELCA/LWF to be real Lutherans. I highly doubt they agree with that.

We had a Lutheran Priest on this forum who addressed the Pope as Antichrist issue and noted it’s not a Lutheran tenet of Faith anymore. He spent quite a bit of time in seminary.

We see that the Confessional Lutherans albeit united under the umbrella of Confessional have no altar and pulpit fellowship. I am thinking of Wels and LCMS relations.

Thus as a Catholic you read the headlines " Catholics and Lutherans come to some agreement on the Doctrine of Justification" or “Catholics and Lutherans together commemorate the Reformation; remove mutual anathemas” and think ok.

Next thing you know you have a confessional Lutheran saying “Oh NO the Pope is the Antichrist”

Well, as “confessional” Lutheran do the LCMS and WELS ever get together and duke it out with the LWF/ELCA specifically and try to iron on what Lutherans really do collectively believe today?

It’s beyond the realm how fragmented the church is Lutheran. No Catholic unless they have a huge interest in it can be up to date on what is still a hangover from the 16th century days like the antichrist doctrine and what Lutherans today really believe. You can say it’s so, and yet Father K who was well liked on this board says you are wrong.

Mary.
As grievous as the division between us and the WELS and ELS ( Evangelical Lutheran Synod) is to us, we have been engaged in dialogue in hopes of overcoming those differences that led to the departure from altar and pulpit fellowship:
“[Nearly] 55 years after the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod and 60 years after the Evangelical Lutheran Synod suspended fellowship with the Missouri Synod, the three synods have been engaged in informal discussion for the past three years,” said the Rev. Dr. Albert B. Collver III, director of LCMS Church Relations. “The informal discussions have resulted in the recognition that the three synods … have significant agreement in the primary areas of theology. We also recognize that a great deal of additional conversation and work must continue on areas where we do not have full agreement.”blogs.lcms.org/2015/lcms-wels-els-report. As far as LCMS and ELCA dialogue… well, here’s a quote from a meeting between the two bodies from the opposition’s website: “The Missouri Synod believes that these proposals are yet another unfortunate
example of how our two churches are continuing to move farther away from one another, in terms
of our theological understandings and confessional commitments,” Barry said. “It would be our
feeling that through the adoption of these proposals, you would in reality be moving away from the
scriptural and confessional position of historic Lutheranism.”
Barry later told reporters he appreciated comments the Rev. H. George Anderson,
presiding bishop of the ELCA, made to the assembly and agreed that he “would like to see our two
churches on converging rather than diverging courses.”
Recently Barry authored a pamphlet on “The Differences Between the ELCA and the
LCMS” outlining how he feels the two churches disagree over the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions
and the criteria for church fellowship. “The LCMS believes that the Bible is actually the Word of
God,” he wrote. “The ELCA, on the other hand, avoids making statements that confess the full
truthfulness of the Bible.”
“It comes as no surprise that the ELCA would consider it possible to enter into fellowship
with churches that teach things that are clearly contrary to the Word of God,” said the president,
claiming such arrangements reflect the ELCA’s attitude toward the Bible. “This attitude is
contrary to the confessional principle of the Lutheran church.”
“The differences between our two churches are a source of great sadness for the
LCMS,” Barry concluded, adding that those differences may also provide “a wonderful
opportunity to wrestle with the questions” generated by understanding them.
The pamphlet is one of a series of eight brochures sent to about 8,000 LCMS pastors.
Barry’s office has sent out nearly 200,000 of the ELCA-LCMS pamphlet in response to requests.
“The brochure is but an example of what has been happening over some time. It is a
symptom rather than the issue,” said the Rev. Jon S. Enslin, bishop of the ELCA’s South-Central
Synod of Wisconsin, Madison, Wis. “I grieve what I see is a widening separation.”
“We have much to learn from and to gain from a church that is as theologically careful
as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod,” Enslin said, “but it is hard to be in a theological dialogue
with someone who is always telling you that you’re wrong … or you’re not really Lutheran.”
“The brochure makes the necessary theological dialogue more difficult,” said Enslin. "It
is one thing to dialogue with someone with whom you do not agree, to learn more of them and
maybe even ask questions of yourself. It is another thing to see yourself as the only right one and
you are saving them from themselves."
elca.org/News-and-Events/3118
 
As grievous as the division between us and the WELS and ELS ( Evangelical Lutheran Synod) is to us, we have been engaged in dialogue in hopes of overcoming those differences that led to the departure from altar and pulpit fellowship:
“[Nearly] 55 years after the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod and 60 years after the Evangelical Lutheran Synod suspended fellowship with the Missouri Synod, the three synods have been engaged in informal discussion for the past three years,” said the Rev. Dr. Albert B. Collver III, director of LCMS Church Relations. “The informal discussions have resulted in the recognition that the three synods … have significant agreement in the primary areas of theology. We also recognize that a great deal of additional conversation and work must continue on areas where we do not have full agreement.”blogs.lcms.org/2015/lcms-wels-els-report. As far as LCMS and ELCA dialogue… well, here’s a quote from a meeting between the two bodies from the opposition’s website: “The Missouri Synod believes that these proposals are yet another unfortunate
example of how our two churches are continuing to move farther away from one another, in terms
of our theological understandings and confessional commitments,” Barry said. “It would be our
feeling that through the adoption of these proposals, you would in reality be moving away from the
scriptural and confessional position of historic Lutheranism.”
Barry later told reporters he appreciated comments the Rev. H. George Anderson,
presiding bishop of the ELCA, made to the assembly and agreed that he “would like to see our two
churches on converging rather than diverging courses.”
Recently Barry authored a pamphlet on “The Differences Between the ELCA and the
LCMS” outlining how he feels the two churches disagree over the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions
and the criteria for church fellowship. “The LCMS believes that the Bible is actually the Word of
God,” he wrote. “The ELCA, on the other hand, avoids making statements that confess the full
truthfulness of the Bible.”
“It comes as no surprise that the ELCA would consider it possible to enter into fellowship
with churches that teach things that are clearly contrary to the Word of God,” said the president,
claiming such arrangements reflect the ELCA’s attitude toward the Bible. “This attitude is
contrary to the confessional principle of the Lutheran church.”
“The differences between our two churches are a source of great sadness for the
LCMS,” Barry concluded, adding that those differences may also provide “a wonderful
opportunity to wrestle with the questions” generated by understanding them.
The pamphlet is one of a series of eight brochures sent to about 8,000 LCMS pastors.
Barry’s office has sent out nearly 200,000 of the ELCA-LCMS pamphlet in response to requests.
“The brochure is but an example of what has been happening over some time. It is a
symptom rather than the issue,” said the Rev. Jon S. Enslin, bishop of the ELCA’s South-Central
Synod of Wisconsin, Madison, Wis. “I grieve what I see is a widening separation.”
“We have much to learn from and to gain from a church that is as theologically careful
as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod,” Enslin said, “but it is hard to be in a theological dialogue
with someone who is always telling you that you’re wrong … or you’re not really Lutheran.”
“The brochure makes the necessary theological dialogue more difficult,” said Enslin. "It
is one thing to dialogue with someone with whom you do not agree, to learn more of them and
maybe even ask questions of yourself. It is another thing to see yourself as the only right one and
you are saving them from themselves."
elca.org/News-and-Events/3118
Thanks Lutheran Scholar, that was an interesting read. I often visit the LCMS official site to read up on issues because I have several Lutheran friends and I started getting confused years ago when I noted they had a great variance in beliefs both theological and on moral issues, so thus my interest in Lutheran theology and the differences between the synods.

Mary.
 
:

:tiphat: Thank you…you have restored a measure of credibility to Catholicism.
I take your comments in the spirit they’re intended (some think that I’m not without a sense of humor :cool:) but for the record, Catholicism doesn’t need its credibility to be restored. If a church is to be judged by what one or another of its member say on a web discussion forum, or on the Internet in general, then no church would have any credibility.
 
My dear wife, a hardcore Lutheran ( LCMS, she has to make that distinction known), would say that Luther was and is always Catholic. And the LCMS is the true catholic church, as Luther and Lutherans corrected the doctrinal errors of the Catholic Church. My paraphrasing may be a little off, but I think that is what most Lutherans believe, at least the LCMS. I’m Catholic, so I get to hear of the ‘errors’ and everything else anti-Catholic. sigh
That’s about right. But there’s no need to construe her concern for your church as “anti-Catholic,” even if you disagree with it. Likewise, I’d hope she wouldn’t consider your church “anti-Lutheran.” It’s simply really; if a Christian believes another is in error, it’s their duty to call them to repentance. You and your wife hold somewhat mutually-exclusive, firmly-held beliefs. Neither of you is “anti” the other.

The LCMS has a terrific working relationship with the Roman Catholic Church that extends far beyond the mere “ecumenical document” niceties that exist between the ELCA and Rome. The LCMS and the RCC work together on social issues and the LCMS President has a friendly relationship with the Archbishop of St. Louis and the two have regularly appear together at Pro-Life rallies. Even given the chasm between them on various points of doctrine, the LCMS and the RCC are much closer – both morally and doctrinally.
 
I take your comments in the spirit they’re intended (some think that I’m not without a sense of humor :cool:) but for the record, Catholicism doesn’t need its credibility to be restored. If a church is to be judged by what one or another of its member say on a web discussion forum, or on the Internet in general, then no church would have any credibility.
I think this sentiment gets posted a couple times a day. And there is truth to it. But we need to acknowledge the importance of representing the Spirit which we claim.
 
Absolutely. (I’m not sure what in my post you’re responding to.)
I wasn’t criticizing you, but I waited awhile before addressing that post. No one said anything. No, actually it was supported… 😦
 
Then don’t whine when we refer to the papacy as anti- Christ. It’s only the truth and if our Catholic brethren take offense, it’s no business of ours.
And don’t whine when we refer to Luther as a heretic. That is the truth. If our separated brethren take offense, it is of no consequence to us or to Him.
 
And that is a promise Jesus gave isn’t it? It is true that we have different ideas of what we conceive the Church of God to be but His ways are higher than ours. He only has us humans to work with and that must be frustrating. All that has happened within Christendom the past 2000 years must make the devil very happy. We need to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood but with demons and the devil. We need to peel back the layers of human pride and reasoning, get back to the early concept of brotherhood and discover Jesus and His Church has been there all the time. The world will know we are Christians by our love for one another.
He established ONE Church. Luther basically divided it.
 
The bolded above is exactly what Luther accused the Catholic Church of doing ( with the innovations, as he saw them, of Purgatory, Masses for the dead, “miracles” attributed to relics, unprovable legends regarding saints, such as St. Christopher, which I think Luther described as a Polyphemus who never existed, indulgences which had to be paid for, unwarranted authority vested in the hands of one man), hence the attempts at Reform and a return to the basic truths of the Christian Faith. Naturally, Luther wasn’t by himself in seeing the need for Reformation, else his efforts would never have enjoyed the success they did.
…the success they did? Could you elaborate in how splintering the Body of Christ is a success?

This understanding reminds me of a fellow who demonstrated how innovative society became in Spain, once they removed the “control” of the Church, as they women were no longer obliged to be married to one man for life (state imposed “no divorce” mandate)–he went as far as citing the freedom women gained as pornography was legalized…

It seems that being married to one man was degrading and oppressive while engaging in prostitution and becoming mercantile (in the flesh peddling industry) was liberating.

…so please, clarify how myriads of schisms are a success…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
That’s a fairly provocative statement, considering Pope Leo X’s rather proud reaction to Luther’s plea for a General Church Council to address the concerns that he posted in the Ninety-Five Theses. Jesus is the Head of His Church, of course He can’t be separated from His own Body and to roundly accuse the movements collectively known as Protestant of seeking to do such an absurdly impossible thing is pretty outrageous and patently false.

The truth of the matter is that Protestantism’s only aim has been to return to the teachings of the Apostles as found in Scripture, some going further than others and yet all having no goal in mind save honoring the Lordship of Jesus Christ and acknowledging Him Alone as the Sole Mediator between us and God the Father. Seeing the charity organizations espoused by Protestants, their missionary work overseas, their influence in establishing the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as First World countries, their willingness to suffer death at the hands of the adversaries of the Faith make that blanket charge of selfishness quite invalid.
…this sounds pretty on text or sound-bite; yet, reality proofs it different. When Christ Calls for being one in Him He does not mean having thousands of governing bodies voting on what is or is not the Word of God.

When Jesus Calls for Love that does not mean love those you want to convert and be hateful of those who refuse to acquiesce to your claims.

When Jesus stated: "you are Cephas/Kephas and on this rock I will build my community (church), He did not mean my communities (as in the splintering and resplintering and reresplintering… to the nph power).

When Jesus states that if anyone wants to live forever (have eternal life) he must “chew” His Body, He did not mean have a symbolic gathering in my Name…

When Jesus speaks–why don’t all who claim to be obedient to Him Listen and Obey?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
That told me everything I needed to know. Insulting one- liners generally don’t deserve a response. Sorry I wasted my own time. To the other Protestants on here: beware of wasting yours.We have a heritage that most of our families have followed since the sixteenth century and it isn’t one we should hang our heads over, but lift them up. The Wars of Religion fought in Europe and the wars of faith fought in Great Britain led directly to the freedom of religious expression we enjoy today. Let no one shame you for your heritage.
…wow, are you confused? In Europe, as in many other parts of the world, there wasn’t a fight for religious liberties… the Catholic Church was assaulted over and over again (clergy and laity murdered; buildings and real estate stolen; altars and parishes desecrated; laws imposed to keep the Faithful from worshiping the Holy Trinity and from upholding their worshiping practices). Luther became a pawn when power hungry men saw an opportunity (both in the political and religious arenas) and blindly sought to bring forth Armageddon (my personal terminology–which was inspired as wrote, you know, like Luther got them, as he wrote–of the war on Christ’s Church).

…for actual truth look into the origins of the US–specifically the makings of “Maryland,” and the statues that were put into effect against “those of the papist allegiance” (paraphrased).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…the success they did? Could you elaborate in how splintering the Body of Christ is a success?

This understanding reminds me of a fellow who demonstrated how innovative society became in Spain, once they removed the “control” of the Church, as they women were no longer obliged to be married to one man for life (state imposed “no divorce” mandate)–he went as far as citing the freedom women gained as pornography was legalized…

It seems that being married to one man was degrading and oppressive while engaging in prostitution and becoming mercantile (in the flesh peddling industry) was liberating.

…so please, clarify how myriads of schisms are a success…

Maran atha!

Angel
I look at Marburg Colloquy with Luther and Zwingli “duking it out” over real presence and think of what a lack of success the reformation was even at the beginning. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist left behind early on. It was a dismal day for the Church.

"Zwingli believed the whole ceremony of communion was a memorial of Christ’s death for us; Christ was present in the hearts of believers. In his view, when Christ said, “This is my body” or “This is my blood” at the Last Supper, he was not speaking any more literally than when he said, “I am the vine” or “I am the door”. Neither Zwingli nor Luther could accept the other’s viewpoint, and the debate often became harsh.

Luther thought Zwingli was not attaching enough significance to his doctrine and would not accept Zwingli’s hand in Christian brotherhood."

Marburg Colloquy Failed to Reach Consensus

christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1501-1600/marburg-colloquy-failed-to-reach-consensus-11629947.html
 
And that is a promise Jesus gave isn’t it? It is true that we have different ideas of what we conceive the Church of God to be but His ways are higher than ours. He only has us humans to work with and that must be frustrating. All that has happened within Christendom the past 2000 years must make the devil very happy. We need to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood but with demons and the devil. We need to peel back the layers of human pride and reasoning, get back to the early concept of brotherhood and discover Jesus and His Church has been there all the time. The world will know we are Christians by our love for one another.
I fully concur with your final statement! 👍👍👍

Maran atha!

Angel
 
From a Protestant perspective: " why call Anti- Christ to tell him we’re Anti- Christ? He might not like the competition!" Yeah, I hadn’t heard a Catholic say that sort of thing before, either. Well, freedom of speech is a grand thing and it applies here, too. It’s ironic that the country in which these folks practice their missionizing efforts was first founded and populated by Protestants but hey, that’s life.
…the other side of the coin: why do Protestants feel the need to proselytize Catholics? Shouldn’t they follow St. Paul’s norm:
20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. (Romans 15:20)
Maran atha!

Angel
 
Yes it will certainly be interesting to see what happens. My point was simply it’s difficult to know who are the real Lutherans are as a Catholic. You note many in the LCMS don’t consider those in the ELCA/LWF to be real Lutherans. I highly doubt they agree with that.

We had a Lutheran Priest on this forum who addressed the Pope as Antichrist issue and noted it’s not a Lutheran tenet of Faith anymore. He spent quite a bit of time in seminary.

We see that the Confessional Lutherans albeit united under the umbrella of Confessional have no altar and pulpit fellowship. I am thinking of Wels and LCMS relations.

Thus as a Catholic you read the headlines " Catholics and Lutherans come to some agreement on the Doctrine of Justification" or “Catholics and Lutherans together commemorate the Reformation; remove mutual anathemas” and think ok.

Next thing you know you have a confessional Lutheran saying “Oh NO the Pope is the Antichrist”

Well, as “confessional” Lutheran do the LCMS and WELS ever get together and duke it out with the LWF/ELCA specifically and try to iron on what Lutherans really do collectively believe today?

It’s beyond the realm how fragmented the church is Lutheran. No Catholic unless they have a huge interest in it can be up to date on what is still a hangover from the 16th century days like the antichrist doctrine and what Lutherans today really believe. You can say it’s so, and yet Father K who was well liked on this board says you are wrong.

Mary.
Hi, Mary!
…it is not a days gone epithet–it is taught in various communities that claim to be the church of Christ. Though I have not done so lately, in my several attempts to participate in “ecumenical” meets one thing was predominant: “no Catholics allowed” (when it came to having a voice or when organizing the agenda). Further, I’ve never heard (other than Judaism) that a person was disowned by their family for marrying a Christian from a different tenet–well, with the exception of marrying a Catholic (yet, to many Catholics are not “really” Christians).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
:

:tiphat: Thank you…you have restored a measure of credibility to Catholicism.
…interestingly, though… :hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

…one person speaks, and “the whole” Catholic Church is condemned…

…another person speaks and the whole Catholic Church gains “some credibility…” :whistle::whistle::whistle:

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Well, I certainly can’t support the separation of the Reformers from Communion and obedience to Catholic leaders. But I can’t demonize all of their intentions and write them off as attempting to destroy the Church.

Martin’s excommunication had definite consequences and authority from above. I, personally, believe he went for more than he actually could live up to. Instead of suffering the consequences of what he stood for, he wanted to marry, and enjoy what was basically a position of Bishopric.

But this was an environment which was conducive to division by the lack of orthodoxy practiced in the Church. So many gave support for Luther. Not that they all were in unison over doctrine, since the splintering only continued from then on. But there were enough common ground to give strength to the rejection of proper obedience to leadership.
…the enemy of my enemy…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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