If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?

[LutheranScholar]

Brother, please don’t go. It’s taken me a few years to get the hang of it, but I’ve learned not to take the polemics personally. Some Catholics simply don’t know any better. That doesn’t mean we need to respond in-kind. Besides, those sorts of Catholics usually don’t last too long here. Remain calm and keep the 8th - you’ll find you’ll outlive the polemicists here. The moderators are good.

Amen. I did request my name be taken off the membership list, although perhaps I was still typing out of passion rather than rational thought. My beliefs are every bit as dear to me as anyone’s here or anywhere else. That in mind, perhaps I shouldn’t have been quite as venomous as I admittedly was. I also kept my word this morning in praying for those here this morning. Ironically, the Message focused on service, as the readings were from the chapter of Genesis where Abraham was entertaining the angels and Martha was complaining to Jesus about Mary sitting down while Martha was trying to get food prepared. I think that the Holy Spirit leads us to where we can do the most good. Blessings to all here.

 

[rcwitness]

A personal response from me is not needed nor do I offer one…nor would I consider it even remotely proper for me to offer one.

I agree, you certainly do not need to respond. I dont, however, understand why you feel it improper to dialogue into the matters more specifically. I admire your good attitude and approach to Lutherans, but does it mean that we can’t talk about the core differences? If all we do is try to “sugar coat” our words to the point of avoiding the heart of matters, are we really gonna gain any constructive ground together?

The issues, as such, are concisely addressed in From Conflict to Communion, which is published by the governing dicastery of the Holy See

Ok. I will try to find time to look this over, for sure! Is there content that addresses the article I posted? If I have contradicted something by my response, I will gladly retract and apologize for presenting the Catholic faith falsely.

And they are also well addressed under the United States National Conference of Catholic Bishops in Declaration on the Way; the work of the Catholic dialogue in this effort by the Americans was overseen by PCPCU. The resulting product was commended to the dicastery’s Cardinal President.

Again, I will read and accept any correction for any misrepresentation of Catholic apologetics regarding my postings.

All positions articulated by Catholic individuals should faithfully reflect the positions actually currently held by the Holy See.

Yes. I do try to observe this.

In so far as the LCMS has issues and concerns and reservations with participation and results of the international Lutheran-Catholic dialogue, that is an internal issue for the Lutherans and, as a Catholic priest, I in no way speak on matters of internal concern to them.

You are involved in these relationships, so I thought your ability to represent them is appropriate. But I feel that you are criticizing my efforts at explaining my understanding of these differences.

I hold the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in the very highest esteem and have across these decades.

I assume you mean you hold LCMS in high esteem, though the faith affirmed by Vatican as Supreme?

 

[rcwitness]

Amen. I did request my name be taken off the membership list, although perhaps I was still typing out of passion rather than rational thought. My beliefs are every bit as dear to me as anyone’s here or anywhere else. That in mind, perhaps I shouldn’t have been quite as venomous as I admittedly was. I also kept my word this morning in praying for those here this morning. Ironically, the Message focused on service, as the readings were from the chapter of Genesis where Abraham was entertaining the angels and Martha was complaining to Jesus about Mary sitting down while Martha was trying to get food prepared. I think that the Holy Spirit leads us to where we can do the most good. Blessings to all here.

… and I remembered your needs in prayer at Mass as well. Our readings were the same! I can handle heated debates. I believe it’s inevitable with what we are trying to do. That’s why I can appreciate strong feelings, but hope we can all refrain from contempt.

 

[steido01]

Not meaning any offense, but I believe that Protestant posters bear a lot of responsibility too.

I think that was implied in my post, else I wouldn’t have posted.

 

[jcrichton]

I do use Scriptures and I haven’t abrogated against the Church founded by Christ. Had I done that, I’d still be Roman Catholic, but as it is, I’m a member of the Church established by Christ in 33 A.D. and joyfully waiting for Him to come again.

The Church is One, Holy, Christian and Apostolic. Indeed, God is love and those who claim to love God and hate their brothers lie and are still in darkness. Guess what: it wasn’t a Protestant who started this thread.

They stayed with Christ’s Founded Church. The ranting of somebody who used his position like a businessman is in no position to dictate who is and who is not a part of Christ’s Church: that is for Christ to decide, not a disgruntled cleric who tried to lure Luther to Rome so he could be murdered.

" Hundreds of thousands of popes." Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? We have One Head, even Christ Himself.

I *do *build Christ’s Mystical Body and far more effectively as a Lutheran who also serves the Church and God’s People in more ways than sitting on a pew every Sunday and HDO and going to Confession once a month as I used to do as a Catholic. I serve on the Church Council, I serve as a lector and I usher for my current parish. I notice that Lutherans are a bit more about service and a bit less about wheedling more money from the parishioners or dictating to them how they shall dress when they go to church. We also don’t have to deal with some infant’s endless screaming during Liturgy or standing in the back during a midnight Mass.

Hi!
…for a second there I thought I had confused your responses with that of someone else (you truly sounded as if you were abrogating Christ’s Love and Unity, for a second)… then you went into your blind support of a cleric gone wild and espoused the Church with the de Vince code (hatred and myth); it seems that your terminologies for Love and Christian Unity truly laps up Lutheran skewness to the bone.

Please forgive my rudeness for continuing in this circle.

May the Holy Spirit Guide you.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Oh no, * another* Luther thread!

As LutheranScholar implied, we always have the Church, no adjectives. The Church, which is the Communion of Saints, founded at Pentecost in 33 AD (10 days after the Lord’s resurrection, for reference).

Romans 8:38-39 clearly teaches us that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ; besides, there are no divisions in our identity in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

…the Jehovah Witnesses teach that the Son and the Father are not really one but of the “same mind,” is your claim not the same, I mean in reference to Unity?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

MaryT777:
The last sentence is unnecessarily rude. I have attended LCMS liturgies for two years in the past and let me tell you the flip side of that coin is,against the 8th commandment. That is unfair and you know it.

…it’s an expression of their practices–noticed how much love for infants?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Demographically Luther born in Germany today would have around a 60% probability of being Christian. If he was Christian there’s around a 30% probability he’d be Catholic but of course would more likely be some flavor of Lutheran.

My point is that one’s specific doctrinal convictions are not even close to the final determinant of our specific confessional loyalty. Luther himself couldn’t bring all the Christian denominations back who trace their original break with Rome to his life and thought. Laity in any ecclesial community have a lot of reasons for belonging to their specific denomination that just don’t have anything to do with doctrinal issues (it’s how they were raised, services are close to home, great kids programs, etc. …).

That’s why, in my view, he should have ultimately preferred martyrdom to cession. In failing to do so he layed the historical framework for a severely compromised Chritian witness that is still with us today: the material disunity of Christ’s Church.

Wow… martyrdom!

You truly believe that the Catholic Church have those “albino special forces” which she unleashes to raze opposition?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Brother, please don’t go. It’s taken me a few years to get the hang of it, but I’ve learned not to take the polemics personally. Some Catholics simply don’t know any better. That doesn’t mean we need to respond in-kind. Besides, those sorts of Catholics usually don’t last too long here. Remain calm and keep the 8th - you’ll find you’ll outlive the polemicists here. The moderators are good.

So you consider calling the Catholic Church the anti-Christ a Christian love tap?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You got me! I also try to hide the fact that the main source for Catholic scholarship of Luther until the 20th century recorded the incontrovertible facts that Luther was conceived in a bath house tryst between his mother and the devil himself. Shhh!

Good to read you again, James.

…yep, I give! :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

…you master civility!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you here. From your statement I take your understanding to be that the Catholic Church teaches one can do works that are “good enough to get into heaven.”

Is this the actual stance of the Church?

Hi!
The Church Teaches that man must cooperate with Grace in order to obtain Salvation–Luther taught that man was too unrighteous to cooperate with God’s Grace… hence, no Salvation less you have been predestined by God to be Save; conversely, no freedom from damnation if you were unfortunate to have been predestined by God for damnation.

…Faith without work fails to achieve Salvation because works must accompany Faith.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, but it all depends on the circumstances. If a Sunni Muslim and a Shiite Muslim get into an argument, then a Catholic poster need not take any responsibility for the argument in itself. As a community, however, we need to help each other out and be respectful. That’s common sense, really.

…so you are saying that Catholics must give the other cheek and be on standby to do some apologizing for any heated issues that may come up?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steido01]

…it’s an expression of their practices–noticed how much love for infants?

Maran atha!

Angel

There is no need for that sort of slander. We Lutherans love our children.

My father is an LCMS pastor; my parents had five of us, and adopted two more. They also served as foster parents for more than 70 children, many with severe disabilities and special needs. Care to guess where they got this beautiful Christian example? From Martin and Katie Luther, who had six living children and adopted four more orphans. Martin, of course, got is from Christ: “Let the little children come to me.”

 

[steido01]

So you consider calling the Catholic Church the anti-Christ a Christian love tap?

Maran atha!

Angel

No Lutheran has ever called “the Catholic Church” the anti-Christ, as we believe it to be a part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church - even if it may promote some heterodoxies from our perspective. What we do consider to be anti-to-Christ are some of the powers claimed by the office of the papacy. While the Orthodox may not use the same language, some have used similar reasoning. That’s not to say the charge of anti-Christ isn’t serious; it certainly is! But it is not some end-of-the-world-rapture-nuttiness that many conflate with the term. To a Lutheran, any leader within the church who acts contrary to Christ is acting in a spirit of anti-Christ.

 

[Peter_J]

I hold the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in the very highest esteem and have across these decades.

On a side note, this puts me in mind of the way Dominus Iesus was criticized by liberal Catholics (for being “unecumenical”) yet praised by Protestants and Orthodox.

 

[Peter_J]

I think that was implied in my post, else I wouldn’t have posted.

Oops.

Well in that case, see it as a reminder to everyone of something that shouldn’t need a reminder, namely supply and demand. (Just like the answer to “Why do they make movies like _____” is usually “Because people want to watch movies like ______”.)

 

[jcrichton]

There is no need for that sort of slander. We Lutherans love our children.

My father is an LCMS pastor; my parents had five of us, and adopted two more. They also served as foster parents for more than 70 children, many with severe disabilities and special needs. Care to guess where they got this beautiful Christian example? From Martin and Katie Luther, who had six living children and adopted four more orphans. Martin, of course, got is from Christ: “Let the little children come to me.”

No slander–check the referenced post; to that person children are but stumbling blocks to Worship; so while referencing love that person also demonstrates little patience; Catholic culture takes children into Worship and we suffer the inconvenience of their presence, when issues arise that interrupts environment. Though it can be argued that there are Catholics who are very loose in their parenting skills (I would argue that some even lack understanding of the purpose of Worship as it seems that they do not teach their children the difference between being in the House of God and an excursion out of their home), yet, as Jesus, I would never view a child as a hindrance to my Visit to God’s House.

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: I do apologize since it seems that you took offense.

 

[LutheranScholar]

There is no need for that sort of slander. We Lutherans love our children.

My father is an LCMS pastor; my parents had five of us, and adopted two more. They also served as foster parents for more than 70 children, many with severe disabilities and special needs. Care to guess where they got this beautiful Christian example? From Martin and Katie Luther, who had six living children and adopted four more orphans. Martin, of course, got is from Christ: “Let the little children come to me.”

I have a daughter myself, of course. I kept her at home until I could be sure that she could get through a service without crying. She slept during her baptism, which was a blessing. Different families have different priorities and hungry infants or kids needing to be changed are hardly the only sources of disruption during Divine Service: when I was married, my wife went into an epileptic seizure twice during the Message. It was very frightening, but she refused to leave until after we’d taken Communion. I love my daughter, of course and she’s very involved with her Youth Group. She gets confirmed next year and she’s actually a lot smarter than I am: she has no problems with math and like me, she loves literature.

 

[LutheranScholar]

No Lutheran has ever called “the Catholic Church” the anti-Christ, as we believe it to be a part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church - even if it may promote some heterodoxies from our perspective. What we do consider to be anti-to-Christ are some of the powers claimed by the office of the papacy. While the Orthodox may not use the same language, some have used similar reasoning. That’s not to say the charge of anti-Christ isn’t serious; it certainly is! But it is not some end-of-the-world-rapture-nuttiness that many conflate with the term. To a Lutheran, any leader within the church who acts contrary to Christ is acting in a spirit of anti-Christ.

This. Steido and I apparently agree on a few things. I’ve said more than once that the Catholic Church is a valid Christian Church with valid sacraments.

 

[LutheranScholar]

… and I remembered your needs in prayer at Mass as well. Our readings were the same! I can handle heated debates. I believe it’s inevitable with what we are trying to do. That’s why I can appreciate strong feelings, but hope we can all refrain from contempt.

I have hot blood, but blaming a Cajun great- grandmother and a Scots- Irish grandfather for it doesn’t seem to work past the eighth grade, so I’ll own my own foul temper ( and possibly excessive ego). Thank you for remembering me, sir.