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wisdomseeker
Guest
I am wondering about that.
What are your thoughts on this?
What are your thoughts on this?
If lutherans come to unite with the CC, what is going to happen to their females bishops?
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First, not all Lutherans ordain women. We in the LCMS do not. But on the issue of those who do, I cannot see Rome ever accepting a female clergy. That’s not to say that there is not vocations available to women in the CC, there is.
Jon
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wisdomseeker
Guest
thanks Jon. Yesterday, I saw the holy father meeting with lutherans and there was a female bishop. It made me wonder.First, not all Lutherans ordain women. We in the LCMS do not. But on the issue of those who do, I cannot see Rome ever accepting a female clergy. That’s not to say that there is not vocations available to women in the CC, there is.
Jon
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FrDavid96
Guest
They would be received into the Church, Confirmed, and receive First Holy Communion; thereby becoming Catholic lay women. Assuming any of them would even do this in the first place…
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Yes, that is what i was thinking but would doubt they would do it.
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Samuel63
Guest
I suppose we can only speculate at this time. My bet is on women taking a lay role.
Is there any historical precedent?
Is there any historical precedent?
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Miriam1947
Guest
As would all Lutheran men who came into the CC.
The precedent for male Lutheran clergy who convert individually and become Catholic clergy is re-ordination. This, I think, is also the case of the ALCC. + Irl Gladfelter of the ALCC often posts here, so he would be the one to speak with knowledge on this. It would be speculative to say what arrangements would be made if a Lutheran synod of any significant size were to come into union with the Bishop of Rome, but my sense is that any kind of conditional ordination procedure would be unlikely. It think it is fair to say that some Lutheran clergy would object to re-ordination, as we don’t doubt the validity of ours.
Jon
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hn160
Guest
The Pope did not meet with the orthodox Lutherans (Independent Evangelical - Lutheran Church (SELK-Germany) in Germany. These Lutherans do not ordain women. The Pope met with The Evangelical Church in Germany ( EKD ) which is hardly Lutheran. Its roots is with the old Prussian Union Church which was a forced union of the Lutheran Church in Prussia with the Reform ( Calvinist )Church by the King of Prussia, King Frederick William III.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Not true.
The precedent is not “re-ordination” Catholics believe that repeating the Sacrament of Orders (in the same degree) is impossible. They are not “re-ordained.” They are ordained for the first time.
From our viewpoint, it would be re-ordination. And it was that viewpoint I was expressing. Yes, obviously, from the Catholic viewpoint it would be the first ordination.
Jon
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BVM_1221
Guest
I doubt very much if any of the women bishops would go along with the reunion if it involved loss of their being bishops. :dts:They would probably leave for some other Lutheran denomination that:
- Accepts women
- Does not want to reunite with Rome.
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TimothyH
Guest
I imagine that the Lutheran priest’s viewpoint would have to change given what it means to be a member of the Catholic clergy .
“If a Lutheran synod of any significant size were to come into union with the Bishop of Rome”, as you put it, means not only union with the Bishop of Rome in terms of orgainization and hierarchy, but for clergy especially it means complete submission to the Bishop of Rome on matters of faith and morals, which would include submission to the Holy Father on what constitutes a valid ordaination.
The Lutheran priest who wishes to be a Catholic priest has to give up his right to insist, even to believe, that his ordaination was valid, if the Supreme Pontiff under which he wishes to serve says that it is not. A Lutheran priest who insists that his ordaination is valid yet wishes to be a Catholic priest under such a Pope is in a pretty tight catch 22, no?
-Tim-
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Hesychios
Guest
I think any such union will result in further schism among Lutherans, for the reasons you cite.
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TimothyH
Guest
Because there are hundreds of thousands of holy, pure and celibate Catholc Priests who are not pedophiles.And just why would any Lutherans WANT to unite with Rome, given such current problems as Clergy child-abuse?
Because Christ chose 12 Apsostles and the valid successors to those Apostles are today’s Bishops of the Holy Catholic Church.
Because Christ chose Peter to be his vicar on earth, and that honor and authority has been handed down through twenty centuries to the current Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI.
Because Christ established one, holy, universal and apostolic Church as his kingdom on earth until he comes again in glory, and only that Church has the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and that Church is not the Lutheran Church but the Catholic Church.
There are probably about a million more reasons, but I’m sure these would suffice for most people.
-Tim-
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ConstantineTG
Guest
There have been women who occupied higher offices in the Church. In their capacity they have the authority by virtue of their office but they are not ordained. If the women “bishops” do accept union with the Catholic Church, I think the conception is that they may be given the authority of an office of the Bishop, but never function liturgically as a Bishop at any time because they have to accept the fact that they never were ordained.
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stpaulboy
Guest
I doubt very much if any of the women bishops would go along with the reunion if it involved loss of their being bishops. They would probably leave for some other Lutheran denomination that:
Rather off subject don’t you think?? Not to start a new thread, but when I was a LCMS, the LCMS minister at the church I attended was found guilty of the same crime of child abuse (with his own daughters!) the media likes to point fingers at our priests alone, while the sad truth is that the vile sin is found in all areas of our society.
- Accepts women
- Does not want to reunite with Rome.
Rather off subject don’t you think?? Not to start a new thread, but when I was a LCMS, the LCMS minister at the church I attended was found guilty of the same crime of child abuse (with his own daughters!) the media likes to point fingers at our priests alone, while the sad truth is that the vile sin is found in all areas of our society.
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stpaulboy
Guest
As a former Lutheran it would seem that the biggest obstacle would be the differing views on homosexuality and abortion! However, we pray that would be the incentive to turn towards Rome and Home!!
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mdgspencer
Guest
The Catholic Church does not consider Lutheran ministers priests, nor do Lutheran ministers themselves consider them priests. Nor does the Catholic Church consider Lutheran bishops bishops in the sense Catholic bishops are bishops. The Lutherans do not believe ordination to the priesthood is a sacrament, and it is not. Nor are Lutheran bishops ordained to their position, as Catholic bishops are. The same situation exists when it comes to the rebellious “Catholic” women who call themselves bishops or priests. To Catholics, the words priest or bishop in their case is just a word without meaning.
The same situation has already occurred in the case of the Anglican bishops who became Catholics recently. The Catholic Church does not consider that Anglican bishops have ever been bishops in the Catholic sense. When some Anglican bishops converted to Catholicism recently, they became laypeople in the Catholic Church. If they wished to continue to serve, as priests, in the Catholic Church, they had to be ordained priests after they became Catholic. If the Catholic Church and Lutheran groups united, hopefully Lutheran bishops, any or all of them, would humbly accept relegation to the status of laypeople just as these Anglican bishops did.
I admit though that this could be another barrier to unity.
The same situation has already occurred in the case of the Anglican bishops who became Catholics recently. The Catholic Church does not consider that Anglican bishops have ever been bishops in the Catholic sense. When some Anglican bishops converted to Catholicism recently, they became laypeople in the Catholic Church. If they wished to continue to serve, as priests, in the Catholic Church, they had to be ordained priests after they became Catholic. If the Catholic Church and Lutheran groups united, hopefully Lutheran bishops, any or all of them, would humbly accept relegation to the status of laypeople just as these Anglican bishops did.
I admit though that this could be another barrier to unity.
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