If lutherans come to unite with the CC, what is going to happen to their females bishops?

[mark_a]

I am wondering about that.

What are your thoughts on this?

Why would a church that believes in ordaining women want to unite the CC which does not. Things are already as they should be. If one wants to join the CC, they don’t need the approval or consent of their current church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Why would a church that believes in ordaining women want to unite the CC which does not. Things are already as they should be. If one wants to join the CC, they don’t need the approval or consent of their current church.

I am not saying they will. I know that the holy father is working to bring the lost into the Church. He is seeking the lost. it is probably their last chance.

How hard it is for us to humble ourselves.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

And just why would any Lutherans WANT to unite with Rome, given such current problems as Clergy child-abuse?

Because the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established.

there are some Lutherans who believe that.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

As a former Lutheran it would seem that the biggest obstacle would be the differing views on homosexuality and abortion! However, we pray that would be the incentive to turn towards Rome and Home!!

I’d say it’s just understanding what the Church actually believes regarding justification.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Because the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established.

there are some Lutherans who believe that.

And because it is a betrayal to Jesus to preach the Gospel unauthorized, specially working against HIs Church.

 

[JonNC]

=BVM 1221;8397747]I doubt very much if any of the women bishops would go along with the reunion if it involved loss of their being bishops. :dts:They would probably leave for some other Lutheran denomination that:

1. Accepts women
2. Does not want to reunite with Rome.

Speaking in generalities, I would say you are correct.

And just why would any Lutherans WANT to unite with Rome, given such current problems as Clergy child-abuse?

Because the CC is not about the individual sins of a small fraction of their priesthood.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=TimothyH;8397750]I imagine that the Lutheran priest’s viewpoint would have to change given what it means to be a member of the Catholic clergy .

“If a Lutheran synod of any significant size were to come into union with the Bishop of Rome”, as you put it, means not only union with the Bishop of Rome in terms of orgainization and hierarchy, but for clergy especially it means complete submission to the Bishop of Rome on matters of faith and morals, which would include submission to the Holy Father on what constitutes a valid ordaination.

The Lutheran priest who wishes to be a Catholic priest has to give up his right to insist, even to believe, that his ordaination was valid, if the Supreme Pontiff under which he wishes to serve says that it is not. A Lutheran priest who insists that his ordaination is valid yet wishes to be a Catholic priest under such a Pope is in a pretty tight catch 22, no?

I agree, Tim. The experience of the ALCC is that all of their priests/bishops are submitting in the way that you say.
Of course, once again we are speculating on how any agreement of reconciliation would be designed.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I think any such union will result in further schism among Lutherans, for the reasons you cite.

I don’t know if it could be termed “further schism”, Michael. Some, clergy and laity, would simply stay Lutheran, perhaps by joining a Lutheran synod that is not involved in a reconciliation.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

As a former Lutheran it would seem that the biggest obstacle would be the differing views on homosexuality and abortion! However, we pray that would be the incentive to turn towards Rome and Home!!

These wouldn’t be a problem for the LCMS, as our view mirrors that of Rome.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=mdgspencer;8397869]The Catholic Church does not consider Lutheran ministers priests, nor do Lutheran ministers themselves consider them priests. Nor does the Catholic Church consider Lutheran bishops bishops in the sense Catholic bishops are bishops. The Lutherans do not believe ordination to the priesthood is a sacrament, and it is not. Nor are Lutheran bishops ordained to their position, as Catholic bishops are. The same situation exists when it comes to the rebellious “Catholic” women who call themselves bishops or priests. To Catholics, the words priest or bishop in their case is just a word without meaning.

The fact that we don’t describe ordination as a sacrament has to do more with how we define sacrament. As for the term priest, again it is a matter of definition.

The same situation has already occurred in the case of the Anglican bishops who became Catholics recently. The Catholic Church does not consider that Anglican bishops have ever been bishops in the Catholic sense. When some Anglican bishops converted to Catholicism recently, they became laypeople in the Catholic Church. If they wished to continue to serve, as priests, in the Catholic Church, they had to be ordained priests after they became Catholic. **If the Catholic Church and Lutheran groups united, hopefully Lutheran bishops, any or all of them, would humbly accept relegation to the status of laypeople just as these Anglican bishops did.**I admit though that this could be another barrier to unity.

Or, as some of the ALCC bishops, accept ordination in the order of priest.

Jon

 

[GeorgiiMichael]

I can only speak from my experience in the ELCA before I converted to Catholicism, but being a bishop in that community means that you’ve been elected for a term of office. Once that term is over, that person is no longer a bishop. So if it works the same way, I doubt you’d have many female Lutheran bishops leaving to find different synods.

Also, if they came to realize that the Catholic Church had the fullness of truth, why would they resist any of that? They would understand what it would mean for them to become Catholic before making the decision to become Catholic. Female Lutheran ministers wouldn’t push for the female priesthood if they came to understand and fully believe why the Catholic Church cannot ordain women to the priesthood.

Sometimes I wonder how many of the Catholics on this forum have any IRL interactions with converts…

 

[catharina]

I am wondering about that.

What are your thoughts on this?

Such women would be received as
Catholic laywomen or not at all. There
are no other options for them.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Such women would be received as
Catholic laywomen or not at all. There
are no other options for them.

I would agree.

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t know if it could be termed “further schism”, Michael. Some, clergy and laity, would simply stay Lutheran, perhaps by joining a Lutheran synod that is not involved in a reconciliation.

Jon

I see your point Jon.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

And because it is a betrayal to Jesus to preach the Gospel unauthorized, specially working against HIs Church.

Are you telling me I’m working against the Catholic Church because I’m not Catholic, even though I want to become one???

Parents don’t want me to be, at least not under their roof.

You probably misunderstood me.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are you telling me I’m working against the Catholic Church because I’m not Catholic, even though I want to become one???

Parents don’t want me to be, at least not under their roof.

You probably misunderstood me.

If you are becoming a Catholic, what I said is not for you.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Perhaps the female bishops could become deaconesses? We could reinstate the female diaconate.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Perhaps the female bishops could become deaconesses? We could reinstate the female diaconate.

For what purpose? We do not baptize adult women in the nude anymore. And there is no female diaconate. Deaconesses were instituted to perform baptisms of females back in the time when baptisms were done in the nude and then afterwards the newly baptized is clothed in baptismal clothes. We still do the same ritual today for infants.

 

[catharina]

For what purpose? We do not baptize adult women in the nude anymore. And there is no female diaconate. Deaconesses were instituted to perform baptisms of females back in the time when baptisms were done in the nude and then afterwards the newly baptized is clothed in baptismal clothes. We still do the same ritual today for infants.

I’ve attended many infant Baptisms,
but I’ve never seen one where the baby is nude.

 

[gcnuss]

Some thoughts on this thread –

Because there are hundreds of thousands of holy, pure and celibate Catholc Priests who are not pedophiles.

I agree fully that the vast majority of Catholic priests are faithful servants of God. I have had the privilege of knowing a number of them and I have been impressed by their faith.

Because Christ chose 12 Apsostles and the valid successors to those Apostles are today’s Bishops of the Holy Catholic Church.

From my Lutheran perspective, the Church is much more than just those who profess loyalty to the Bishop of Rome.

Because Christ chose Peter to be his vicar on earth, and that honor and authority has been handed down through twenty centuries to the current Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI.

I recognize that this is good Catholic teaching and that some of the most recent popes have been tremendous witnesses to our Lord. Yet, I am not able to accept the exclusivity that the Catholic Church claims for itself as the sole repository of truth.

Because Christ established one, holy, universal and apostolic Church as his kingdom on earth until he comes again in glory, and only that Church has the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and that Church is not the Lutheran Church but the Catholic Church.

Again, speaking as a Lutheran, I believe that the Lutheran expression of the Christian faith is a part of the one, holy, universal and apostolic Church.