If lutherans come to unite with the CC, what is going to happen to their females bishops?

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TarkanAttila said:
Perhaps the female bishops could become deaconesses? We could reinstate the female diaconate.
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There was never any such thing as a “female diaconate” so there’s nothing to restore.

Deaconesses were not female deacons, despite the linguistic similarities of the words.
 
stpaulboy said:
As a former Lutheran it would seem that the biggest obstacle would be the differing views on homosexuality and abortion! However, we pray that would be the incentive to turn towards Rome and Home!!
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As a former Lutheran, you must have been ELCA or one of the groups that formed the ELCA. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod does not ordain women or homosexuals. I believe that the Wisconsin Lutheran Evangelical Synod ( WELS ) does not ordain them either. If the Pope was serious about talking to Lutherans, he should be talking to the LC-MS and WELS, not to liberal Lutherans who are in communion fellowship with Calvinist Churches and that ordain women and homosexuals.
 
FrDavid96 said:
There was never any such thing as a “female diaconate” so there’s nothing to restore.

Deaconesses were not female deacons, despite the linguistic similarities of the words.
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Some of our Eastern (Catholic AND Orthodox) brothers would disagree with you.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Example: Some Syraic Orthodox deaconesses surrounding a bishop.
For what purpose? We do not baptize adult women in the nude anymore. And there is no female diaconate. Deaconesses were instituted to perform baptisms of females back in the time when baptisms were done in the nude and then afterwards the newly baptized is clothed in baptismal clothes. We still do the same ritual today for infants.
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All the same, a deaconess could be a distinct spiritual helper (or leader?) for women within the parish community. They would not belong on the altar (most likely), but they could still be a verified source of leadership for women within a parish - like a priest’s wife in Eastern traditions.
 
TarkanAttila said:
Some of our Eastern (Catholic AND Orthodox) brothers would disagree with you.

http://www.soc-wus.org/images/Deaconess AR.jpg
Example: Some Syraic Orthodox deaconesses surrounding a bishop.

All the same, a deaconess could be a distinct spiritual helper (or leader?) for women within the parish community. They would not belong on the altar (most likely), but they could still be a verified source of leadership for women within a parish - like a priest’s wife in Eastern traditions.
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Yes, of course there were deaconesses.

You’re missing the point of my post though.

A deaconess was not a female deacon.

A waitress is a female waiter.
A deaconess is not a female deacon.

Just because the words have the same root does not mean that deaconesses were female deacons.
 
hn160 said:
As a former Lutheran, you must have been ELCA or one of the groups that formed the ELCA. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod does not ordain women or homosexuals. I believe that the Wisconsin Lutheran Evangelical Synod ( WELS ) does not ordain them either. If the Pope was serious about talking to Lutherans, he should be talking to the LC-MS and WELS, not to liberal Lutherans who are in communion fellowship with Calvinist Churches and that ordain women and homosexuals.
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My impression is that Pope Benedict XVI met
with the Lutherans in Germany. Do you imagine
that representatives of these USA groups were there?
 
wisdomseeker said:
I am not saying they will. I know that the holy father is working to bring the lost into the Church. He is seeking the lost. it is probably their last chance.

How hard it is for us to humble ourselves.
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I see. Thanks.
 
catharina said:
My impression is that Pope Benedict XVI met
with the Lutherans in Germany. Do you imagine
that representatives of these USA groups were there?
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I can’t say for sure, but I would doubt it. The Lutherans that would attend would be the liberal groups. The Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church (SELK) is an independent Lutheran Church that is independent of the state and is in fellowship with the LC-MS.
 
catharina said:
More to the point, the Lutherans
in attendance were German citizens.
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It all boils down to who do you talk to. Do you want to have open and frank talks about the differences or kumbaya talks that are meaningless.
 
hn160 said:
It all boils down to who do you talk to. Do you want to have open and frank talks about the differences or kumbaya talks that are meaningless.
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Completely missing your point.

The Lutherans who met with the Pope
during his German visit last week were
Germans. It’s not too likely that small
groups of Lutherans from the USA
attended the Papal visit in Germany.
 
FrDavid96 said:
The picture is a good example of what I’m saying here.

Note that the deaconesses are NOT vested as deacons. Of course not since they aren’t deacons.
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They aren’t, and at the same time, they are. They possess the name deacon, but as you and I both know, their function in the church is different from male deacons. They are “ordained” to minister to the womenfolk of the parish. They are also sort of an example of a female leadership role.
 
Probably the same thing that some of the fringe Lutheran groups feel about the JDDJ (ignore it), ignore ecumenical efforts, stay isolated, and continue having female clergy.
 
Miriam1947 said:
As would all Lutheran men who came into the CC.
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Correct me if i am wrong but in my country there is some Lutheran priests who has converted to the Catholic church and they were allowed to continue their priesthood in the church even though some of them even are married and with children.

Therefore not all Lutheran men would become laymen, the clergy is allowed to continue as clergy.
 
TarkanAttila said:
They aren’t, and at the same time, they are. They possess the name deacon, but as you and I both know, their function in the church is different from male deacons. They are “ordained” to minister to the womenfolk of the parish. They are also sort of an example of a female leadership role.
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In the history of the CATHOLIC Church,
women have never been ordained for any reason.

Any who try to do so are instantly excommunicated.
Ordination is a gift that can NOT be given to women.
 
anjoh66 said:
Correct me if i am wrong but in my country there is some Lutheran priests who has converted to the Catholic church and they were allowed to continue their priesthood in the church even though some of them even are married and with children.

Therefore not all Lutheran men would become laymen, the clergy is allowed to continue as clergy.
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Yes, and it is a special provision given by the Pope. And the same is true of anglican priests who convert. But it is not automatic. The converts have to undergo a process of approval and be recommended by the local Bishop they will be serving. After approval, they are ordained as Catholic priests.
 
TarkanAttila said:
They aren’t, and at the same time, they are. They possess the name deacon, but as you and I both know, their function in the church is different from male deacons. They are “ordained” to minister to the womenfolk of the parish. They are also sort of an example of a female leadership role.
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They don’t possess the name deacon–they are called “deaconess”

The role is different as well as the name.

Calling them female deacons is like calling the wife of the priest a “female priest” just because she’s called the hureeya (or presbytera).
 
ESMDHokie77 said:
Probably the same thing that some of the fringe Lutheran groups feel about the JDDJ (ignore it), ignore ecumenical efforts, stay isolated, and continue having female clergy.
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The Lutherans who do not accept JDDJ and ignor ecumenical efforts, are the ones that stay true to the Lutheran Confession and do not have women pastors or ordain homosexuals. The very Lutherans who signed JDDL and are involved in eccumenical efforts with the Catholic Church are the ones that have woman pastors and women bishops and ordain homosexuals.
 
hn160 said:
The Lutherans who do not accept JDDJ and ignor ecumenical efforts, are the ones that stay true to the Lutheran Confession and do not have women pastors or ordain homosexuals. The very Lutherans who signed JDDL and are involved in eccumenical efforts with the Catholic Church are the ones that have woman pastors and women bishops and ordain homosexuals.
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Ahh, thank you for the clarification. My knowledge of Lutheranism is greatly limited.
 
hn160 said:
The Lutherans who do not accept JDDJ and ignor ecumenical efforts, are the ones that stay true to the Lutheran Confession and do not have women pastors or ordain homosexuals. The very Lutherans who signed JDDL and are involved in eccumenical efforts with the Catholic Church are the ones that have woman pastors and women bishops and ordain homosexuals.
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As an LCMS, I find it untrue to the Lutheran confessions to ignore ecumenical dialogue. One needs only to read the conclusion of Augsburg. And it is my single biggest complaint about our synod. We stay true to the confessions regarding our clergy, that is true, and it puts us in an even better position to dialogue with Rome.

Regarding the JDDJ, I find it a wonderful Lutheran document as far as it goes. I’ve read the LCMS response and just scratch my head. I recently spoke with one of the dialogue members of the recently released “The Hope of Eternal Life” document here in America with the USCCB. The main complaint seems to be it isn’t complete enough. Ok. I get that. Baby steps, please.
Instead we sit back, accept nothing, and allow the liberal bodies to do the work (sometimes good work, like the JDDJ).

Jon
 
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