If Mary was the mother of God...

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Jesus = God. Why are you, obviously educated and knowledgable concerning scripture, finding it so hard to believe that Jesus Christ was then, is now, and ever will be God, second Person of the Holy Trinity?
I know very well, understand, and acknowledge that He is, was, and ever will be the Second Person of the Trinity. Read my posts.

But what men have done, for the sake of proclaiming His deity, is obscure the glorious significance of the Son becoming a MAN. His humanity (not His deity) * is the miracle of the all the ages, now and for all eternity. The wonder is the the all amazing fact that the Son took on true humanity (without divesting His Deity), and as a true MAN (not as God) humbly lived His life here on earth in COMPLETE obedience to the Father, as the Scriptures say,"…He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross*" (read Phil. 2:6-11; cf. Matt. 26:39)As the “second man” (not as God, though He was God) He did what the first man did not. And through His humanity (not His deity), this “Last Adamredeemed (through faith) by the shedding of His blood, through the sacrifice of Himself, those who were under eternal condemnation and death in “Adam.” This was/is all accomplished through His humanity, not His deity. Man’s salvation: i.e., forgiveness of all sins, redemption, justification, sanctification and future glorification, is through faith in the humble obedience of another Man.

Men lost the great Pauline doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone because they failed to maintain the great significance of Christ’s humanity, the eternal import of the Incarnation. His humanity (not His deity) being the means by which God brought salvation to all men (“by grace, through faith”). They barely recognize that there’s a resurrected, glorified MAN now sitting at the right hand of the Majesty on High functioning there as the believer’s High Priest, advocating and interceding for him if and when he should sin (1 Jn. 2:1-2). And they’ve instead placed a woman in heaven to be their mediator between them and Christ, pleading to her for mercy. But Scripture recognizes no such motherly intercession in heaven, but only one - a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5).
IF by TheanthRopic you mean 2 natures of the Christ (Deity & Human) which make up the ONE Messiah.
I do. I’ve stated it many times.
Where we seem to part ways is when you, Dokimas, and the OP want to insist that there were 2 Christs; one being human and thus having a mother and one being God and thus having no mother.
I do not, nor ever will insist that there are two Christs. But I will insist that Mary never was, never will be, “the mother of God.”
There was only one Christ who had 2 natures (Deity & human). He was fully God and fully man. He cannot be divided into 2 persons.
I agree, but through the incarnation His deity did not take on humanity, nor did His humanity take on divinity. Else His humanity was not truly human, nor His divinity truly divine.
He was born of a woman (Mary) and died on the cross
And this is connected to His humanity. It’s His incarnation, His taking on true humanity that made this possible.
in order that salvation may be possible.
His sacrificial death did not make salvation merely “possible,” but for those who have truly believed in Him, salvation is now an eternal reality.
Mary knew him as her son AND as her Salvation
She eventually learned that the Son she bore would accomplish her salvation by the sacrifice of Himself. It’s why the Scriptures say a body was prepared for Him (Heb. 10:5).
John recognized Mary as the Mother of his Lord and God, as did the other Apostles.
But nowhere is it stated that they recognized her as “the mother of God.”
The council of Ephesus proclaimed this in 431.
The Council employed the word “theotokos” (God-bearer) to proclaim the deity of the Child Mary bore. The Council was about the deity of Christ, not the motherhood of Mary. Theotokos means “God-bearer,” not “mother of God.” The emphasis being on the Child, not the mother.
The Bible proclaimed this in several places within the Gospels.
The Bible never calls Mary “the mother of God.”
Some how, over the last few hundred years (perhaps with all the various denominations coming and going into exsistance) we now find ourselves here; debating dogma which has been true for thousands of years. This is a prime example of what happens when men, take the helm and insist that God becomes a passenger.
Actually, what men have done is elevate the Scripture above church Tradition. And as a result, Christ alone sits on the throne because “tradition” was made subordinate to the Scriptures.
 
The Council was about the deity of Christ, not the motherhood of Mary. Theotokos means “God-bearer,” not “mother of God.” The emphasis being on the Child, not the mother.
Actually the council addressed both issues:
"Council of Ephesus:
“If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh as it is written, ‘The Word was made flesh’: let him be anathema.”
Please, go and read it for yourself rather than taking the word of someone else.
The Bible never calls Mary “the mother of God.”
It’s already been shown that, in fact, the Bible DOES refer to Mary as the mother of Jesus, and as the mother of my Lord (See John 19:6 & Lk 1:41-43 respectively). I know, I know, it doesn’t use your words, “mother of God” but Catholics understand that Jesus was God; therefore we don’t play semantics and word games and we don’t demand that scripture must use the exact words that we want or we will refuse to believe.
Actually, what men have done is elevate the Scripture above church Tradition.
Before the Scripture there was only Tradition. Scripture came about FROM Tradition (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit). SOME men (Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wesley, etc.) then took that Scripture and Christian (Catholic) Tradition and twisted it to their wills creating a very large mess that continues to grow today (I’ve heard last week ANOTHER denomination is now openly accepting Homosexual clergy to serve) tsk, tsk. Follow man’s version of tradition if you wish. I’ll stay with the Church that will maintain BOTH Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. The one that can recognize that when a woman gives birth she IS the mother of the child she bore.
And as a result, Christ alone sits on the throne because “tradition” was made subordinate to the Scriptures.
LOL… this statement proves that you know so very little about the Catholic faith and what we believe. No good Catholic elevates Mary to a position where she is equal to the Christ. We do not see her as a goddess, nor a demi-goddess. We see her as being the daughter of men; a creature. You’re trying to use a straw man approach to win an argument. Christ sits with the Father and the Holy Spirit as one God alone. Mary IS in Heaven and can therefore pray directly to and in the presence of God on our behalf, as can all the saints in Heaven.
 
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campeador:
Christ sits at the right hand of the Father. AMEN.
It was stated in the CONTEXT of Mediator (read 1 Tim. 2:5). :aok: Scripture reveals no “Queen of heaven” sitting there on a throne mediating/interceding for men on earth. Scripture reveals only ONE: the MAN Christ Jesus = Christ alone.
 
Scripture reveals no “Queen of heaven” sitting there on a throne mediating/interceding for men on earth.
How could it?

Mary was still alive when the scriptures were written. That’s part of the reason why Sacred Tradition is so important, and why sola scriptura doesn’t work.
 
It was stated in the CONTEXT of Mediator (read 1 Tim. 2:5). :aok: Scripture reveals no “Queen of heaven” sitting there on a throne mediating/interceding for men on earth. Scripture reveals only ONE: the MAN Christ Jesus = Christ alone.
Jesus is God.
Mary is Jesus’ mother.
Therefore, Mary is God’s mother.

Jesus is the King of Heaven.
Mary is Jesus’ mother.
Therefore, Mary is the Queen of Heaven (because in ancient Israel, the king’s mother was the Queen).
 
Luke 1:31
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

John 11:27
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 19:7
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation,** taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men**.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “**I am **the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…**The Word became flesh **and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Sounds to me very much like that the Son of God, who IS God, became the Son of Man, who IS man and Son of Mary making Mary His MOTHER.

Jesus = Fully God and Fully Man
Jesus = Son of God and Son of man (Mary)
Jesus = The Lord
The Lord = God
Mary = Mother of Jesus
Mary = Mother of the Lord “Mother of my Lord”
Mary = Mother of God

For the final time - the title ‘Mother of God’ is all about Christ, the title is to define His Divinity, not Mary’s productiveness. She did not produce God in the sense of producing His divinity, but she bore Him in her womb - God sent Himself to become Man to redeem us and reconcile us to the Father.
The title is not so much about her motherhood as it is about WHO she mothered…GOD!

Is it logical? No, not by our faulty fallen human capacity.
Is it impossible? No, nothing is impossible with God.

It is a mystery - we must accept that we may not have full understanding, but that is precisely why we give our lives into the hands of God.
 
Jesus is God.
Mary is Jesus’ mother.
Therefore, Mary is God’s mother.

Jesus is the King of Heaven.
Mary is Jesus’ mother.
Therefore, Mary is the Queen of Heaven (because in ancient Israel, the king’s mother was the Queen).
How could Mary be the Queen of heaven when she herself was conceived BY her mother and her mother BY her mother and…finally BY Eve…who was made through MAN BY God.

BUT…Jesus was conceived IN Mary BY the Holy Spirit.

Just because I think you’re good enough to hold something that I put into your hand, doesn’t mean you OWN it.

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How could Mary be the Queen of heaven when she herself was conceived BY her mother and her mother BY her mother and…finally BY Eve…who was made through MAN BY God.

BUT…Jesus was conceived IN Mary BY the Holy Spirit.

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How can Jesus be King of Heaven when HE was conceived by His mother, who was conceived by her mother etc etc??? 🤷

Yet He is so, and as mother of the King of Heaven, she earns the title EVERY King’s mother earns - Queen Mother.
 
How can Jesus be King of Heaven when HE was conceived by His mother, who was conceived by her mother etc etc??? 🤷

Yet He is so, and as mother of the King of Heaven, she earns the title EVERY King’s mother earns - Queen Mother.
You’re obviously wrong.

Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT. NOT Mary.

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You’re obviously wrong.

Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT. NOT Mary.

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If Jesus was wholly and solely conceived by the Holy Sprit, then why the charade of a human womb at all? Why not just zap the baby Jesus into Mary’s arms as a fully formed babe, without the difficulties, pains and waiting of labour or birth?

In fact why the charade of a human FORM at all, since such a Jesus would in no wise be human and it would achieve nothing in salvific terms to merely ‘borrow’ a human body for a time.

I can’t help picturing the scene in ‘Men in Black’ where the alien ‘borrows’ the skin of a deceased man in order to pass off as human. The suggestion that merely being in possession of a human body makes one human is as laughable as the suggestion would be that that alien was human.

God is not the author of confusion, and a Jesus who was conceived in Mary’s womb, and borne and raised by her, yet somehow not her son, not flesh of her flesh (HER seed, as Genesis clearly states He is) is the exact sort of confusion that is so clearly not of God.
 
If Jesus was wholly and solely conceived by the Holy Sprit, then why the charade of a human womb at all? In fact why the charade of a human FORM at all, since such a Jesus would in no wise be human.

I can’t help picturing the scene in ‘Men in Black’ where the alien ‘borrows’ the skin of a human he’s just killed in order to pass off as human. The suggestion that merely being in possession of a human body makes one human is as laughable as the suggestion would be that that alien was human.

God is not the author of confusion, and a Jesus who was conceived in Mary’s womb, and borne and raised by her, yet somehow not her son, not flesh of her flesh (HER seed, as Genesis clearly states He is) is the exact sort of confusion that is so clearly not of God.
I believe God did not confuse you. You confused yourself.
 
***I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE ON THIS VERY THREAD, BUT I WILL REPEAT MYSELF, EVERYONE HERE IS CHASING HIS (OR HER) TAIL. OP GAVE HIS ARGUMENT, REPLIES WERE GIVEN, OP (OR SOMEONE WHO AGREED WITH HIM) PRESENTED A COUNTER ARGUMENT, TO WHICH MORE REPLIES WERE GIVEN, AND EVER SINCE THEN THERE HAS BEEN NO NEW INFO PRESENTED, PLEASE SO THE INSULTS WILL NOT START TO FLY JUST STOP REPLYING.

MODS PLEASE SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN***

this is my last post on this thread, i am deleting my subscription.
 
I believe God did not confuse you.
No, he didn’t. At least not on this point.

Jesus is truly the seed of Mary, and not merely of the Holy Spirit. It’s plain as day, all spelled out in that Genesis passage if no other.

Again, what purpose the pregnancy, labour and birth if Jesus was not truly Mary’s seed? Why not just zap the fully-formed babe into her arms - she was certainly ready to love and rear Him no matter the method of His arrival!
 
Actually the council addressed both issues:

Please, go and read it for yourself rather than taking the word of someone else.
I did:"This expression, however, “the Word was made flesh,” can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin, the Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word being personally united is said to be born according to the flesh… "

“…but although he assumed flesh and blood, he remained what he was, God in essence and in truth. Neither do we say that his flesh was changed into the nature of divinity, nor that the ineffable nature of the Word of God was laid aside for the nature of flesh; for he is unchanged and absolutely unchangeable, being the same always, according to the Scriptures. For although visible and a child in swaddling clothes, and even in the bosom of his Virgin Mother, he filled all creation as God, and was a fellow-ruler with him who begot him, for the Godhead is without quantity and dimension, and cannot have limits.”

“And since the holy Virgin brought forth corporally God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh.”

“…If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, “The Word was made flesh”] let him be anathema.”“Theotokos” literally means God-bearer. If you read it all in its true context they’re not defining the motherhood of Mary as being God’s Mother, or telling all to henceforth address her as "mother of God, but the reality that “because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word being personally united is said to be born according to the flesh.” It’s all about Christ, not Mary.
Before the Scripture there was only Tradition.
The O.T. isn’t Scripture? In the N.T. Gospel accounts we read how Jesus rebuked the religious leaders concerning their traditions, and He used the Scriptures to do it.
Scripture came about FROM Tradition
Not true:2 Thess 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.”“The traditions” were delivered by word and by letter. They’re the SAME traditions. Those traditions that were spoken to that generation that heard the Apostle’s teachings were preserved for all subsequent generations by the Holy Spirit in Holy Writ. The same way it was done since Moses.
Mary IS in Heaven and can therefore pray directly to and in the presence of God on our behalf, as can all the saints in Heaven.
Proof?
 
“And since the holy Virgin brought forth corporally God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh.”

“…If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, “The Word was made flesh”] let him be anathema.”

[/indent]“Theotokos” literally means God-bearer. If you read it all in its true context they’re not defining the motherhood of Mary as being God’s Mother, or telling all to henceforth address her as "mother of God, but the reality that “because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word being personally united is said to be born according to the flesh.” It’s all about Christ, not Mary.
I don’t how many times we have to say that this is exactly what Catholics believe! Yes it’s all about Christ, not Mary! Why do you keep bringing this up?

As for proof of Mary being in heaven and praying on our behalf to God along with the saints, start another thread or read the many many posts in other threads that already cover this.
 
Jesus is God.
Mary is Jesus’ mother.
Therefore, Mary is God’s mother.
And this is where you crossed the line.
Jesus is the King of Heaven.
Where does it state in Scripture that Jesus is reigning now as “King” in heaven? Certainly He’s sharing His heavenly Father’s throne functioning there as the believer’s High Priest, ever interceding on his behalf. But where does it say He’s now reigning as heaven’s King? Interesting enough in Rev. 3:21 Jesus states that He still anticipates the day when He will sit on His own throne. That occurs at His second advent when, according to the ancient Hebrew prophets, He’ll ascend His father David’s throne and reign over His promised Kingdom (see Lk. 1:32-33). His father David’s kingdom is an earthly kingdom, not heavenly. Those Hebrew prophets described a glorious, earthly kingdom, not heaven. God the Son ALWAYS ruled heaven, always will.
Mary is Jesus’ mother.
Therefore, Mary is the Queen of Heaven (because in ancient Israel, the king’s mother was the Queen).
King David did not put his mother on a throne. That didn’t happen until Solomon, but he had no Divine instruction to so (he also built temples for his many pagan wives). Solomon had no Divine instruction to enthrone his mother, nor do men today have any Divine instruction to enthrone Mary in heaven.
 
And this is where you crossed the line.Where does it state in Scripture that Jesus is reigning now as “King” in heaven?.. But where does it say He’s now reigning as heaven’s King?
John 18:36 :
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”
God the Son ALWAYS ruled heaven, always will.
Would you please clarify? Is Jesus King of Heaven or no?
 
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