If Mary was the mother of God...

[moondweller]

I am sorry this will sound profoundly disrespectful, - but with all your and MoonD’s repetitions… bearer, bearer, etc - I come to understand that you are saying then;

that a body was ingrafted into a womb, doesn’t matter whose, as long as it was a female body with the sole purpose to bear (feed via placenta) a foreign body /object to full term - perhaps not even full term.

Read my recent posts for a clearer understanding of my position.

My argument in respect to the term “theotokos” is that it was originally meant to put emphasis on the deity of the Child the woman bore, not the motherhood of the woman. The council did not convene for the purpose of defining Mary. “Theotokos” does not literally mean “mother of God,” but “God-bearer.” The corruption of its interpretation by men has spawned many fantastic, extrabiblical dogmas concerning Mary down through the centuries and, sadly, embraced by Catholicism, both eastern and western. As a result changing “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” into a mother/son religion. To that of no salvation apart from, and devotion to, her.

 

[sonettegarbin]

Thank you Moondweller, I’m happy to accept that you agree that our Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, Lord God, Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world, represents us in heaven in the body born of His earthly mother, Mary.

 

[campeador]

The corruption of its interpretation by men has spawned many fantastic, extrabiblical dogmas concerning Mary down through the centuries and, sadly, embraced by Catholicism, both eastern and western. As a result changing “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” into a mother/son religion. To that of no salvation apart from, and devotion to, her.

You don’t understand Catholicism if you truly believe this.

 

[MaryTeresa2]

Oh, we see these same arguments going round and round. The OP will ask a question that’s loaded from the beginning… grandmother etc… and then refuse to acknowledge every answer given, no matter that 2000 years have gone by and it’s been completly sussed out time and again. We who are Catholic and believe in the one true Catholic and Apostolic Church, Holy Scripture AND Tradition handed down from the FIRST Christians… the ones who wrote the NT, BTW, with the power given by the Holy Spirit … AND preached the Gospel, AND were in the company of Mary, Mother of God… The Word Incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ… now here the questioner MUST first understand the Trinity, which he/she clearly does NOT! And they want to argue… yet are unwilling to understand they come from a preconceived notion that anything said in response that still claims Mary to be the Mother of God, in the Person of Jesus Christ… is going to be wrong in their opinion. So it goes nowhere, the person wants to convince us of their view and NOT accept the Teaching being given in return. Hummm… What does John 19: 25-27 mean when it states: Near the cross of Jesus there stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Seeing his mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said to his mother, Woman, there is your son" In turn he said to the disciple, “There is your mother.” From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care. Mary is the mother of Jesus, Jesus is the Son of God the Father in Unity with the Holy Spirit. 3 Persons of the Trinity, the ONE God. You said before in a previous post to not answer things with saying they are a mystery. And yet clearly there are many Mysteries concerning the Nature of God. Many things we do not understand. Jesus said we were not ready to fully understand and yet He promised to make all things clear at some point in the future. We are willing to accept these Mysteries. We do NOT blaspheme when we say Mary is the Mother of God. If that were so… then in the 2000 years don’t you think the Holy Spirit would have taken all power away from those words! Yet instead as time goes on those words only take on more Power! As promised to the First Church… the Teachings and Traditions and Written Word… would withstand the gates of hell. Your anti-Catholic-teaching arguments hold no water here, nor do the gates of hell. And besides that we believe Mary to be our Mother as well! As Jesus gave her to his beloved disciple, so too He gave her to be our Mother. She is the Perfect First Disciple, The Handmaid of the Lord, with her perfect answer ‘Yes’ she made possible the one thing needed for God to become Man… human motherhood. How full would be your understanding if only you would open your heart and unstiffen your neck. Mary’s example points us directly to Her Son. God would not allow the many Miracles in the name of Mary the Mother of God, were it not so, if she were not Blessed Amongst Women, the Mother of my Lord. Come grow with us in understanding, there are fruits you have not even imagined! I pray that by the Power of the Holy Spirit, your heart will know the Truth. Peace be with you.

 

[moondweller]

Thank you Moondweller, I’m happy to accept that you agree that our Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, Lord God, Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world, represents us in heaven in the body born of His earthly mother, Mary.

Well, not exactly in the body with which He was born. He now intercedes and advocates in heaven for all the saved here on earth in a resurrected, glorified body that can NEVER again experience death in any way, shape or manner. For this reason Scripture says of Him:Heb 7:25 "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."It’s called His work of eternal salvation which He began on earth with His substitutionary, sacrificial death for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; 26:18; Col. 1:14; 2:13-14) and maintains in heaven with His High Priestly work (Heb. 7:26-28).

 

[moondweller]

You don’t understand Catholicism if you truly believe this.

Is not Catholicism about the Madonna and her Child? Is it not depicted that way in pictures and icons?

Is it not taught in Catholicism that:

Jesus was born without sin - His mother “immaculately conceived?”
Jesus was bodily raised from the dead - His mother bodily resurrected.
Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, His mother bodily assumed into heaven?
Jesus Mediator between God and men, His mother mediator between Christ and men?
Jesus King of heaven - His mother Queen of heaven?
Jesus is the Redeemer - His mother co-Redemtrix
Jesus is the Son of God - His mother the “mother of God.”

In Catholicism what is stated of Jesus (Biblically) is then stated of His mother (extrabiblically - short of deity) - is it not? So why would one not consider Catholicism a mother/son religion? Can there be a Catholic “faith” apart from Mary?

 

[campeador]

Yes. The Holy Spirit must be incompetent, no? Letting the Church teach false doctrines for centuries…

But I’m sure now that you’ve arrived all will be put back to the way it should be.

Jesus Christ, true God and true Man, have mercy on us. Holy Mother Mary, pray for us.

 

[Tietjen]

Is it fair to think this person is a wolf? I think NOT.

Do I think this person a wolf? Of course not. Do I think what this person is saying is a lie perpetuated by anti-catholic doctrine for the purpose of causing readers to either avoid the Church or leave the Church, obviously. Sugar-coat it if you will, the fact is that the OP’s argument with Church doctrine, is in fact wolfish and meant to cause harm. If the OP were here to “understand” and learn what Catholics believe he/she wouldn’t have begun this thread by asking a question he/she knew was ridiculous. I stand by my comment.

This person is blind and needs loving care so that the scales will fall from his/her eyes.

This person, right now, has been given the correct answer by a number of people using various tones and insists on repeating the only answer he/she knows to repeat, “Mary is not the Mother of God.” Loving care will not remove the scales; only God, through the Holy Spirit will soften his/her heart. Your and my job is to simply plant the seeds (tell the Truth of the matter), and then to leave it to God to make the seed take root.

 

[Tietjen]

Is not Catholicism about the Madonna and her Child? Is it not depicted that way in pictures and icons?

Are you against the idea of having a picture of your mother? Did she create you? Body And SOUL? I think not.

Is it not taught in Catholicism that:

Jesus was born without sin - His mother “immaculately conceived?”

Yes, she was saved by God from sin in order to be the vessal bywhich God (in the Christ) would come into the world.

1. “He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
2. “This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
3. “Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
4. “Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
5. “Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
6. Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
7. Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Jesus was bodily raised from the dead - His mother bodily resurrected.

1. Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?
2. 2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.
3. 2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.
4. 1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, His mother bodily assumed into heaven?

1. Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.
2. 2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

Jesus Mediator between God and men, His mother mediator between Christ and men?

1. John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.
2. John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.
3. And I supposed that you have never asked a friend, family member or fellow Christian to pray for you? To do so, using your logic, would be to place a mediator between you and God, would it not?

Jesus King of heaven - His mother Queen of heaven?

1. Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Jesus is the Redeemer - His mother co-Redemtrix

1. The “co” simply means with as in “to cooperate.” Taking it within context, aren’t we ALL to cooperate. Jesus Christ IS the redeemer and Mary’s (or our) cooperation with that does not take away anything from the Christ.

Jesus is the Son of God - His mother the “mother of God.”

See the 100+ posts (or so above this one).

In Catholicism what is stated of Jesus (Biblically) is then stated of His mother (extrabiblically - short of deity) - is it not? So why would one not consider Catholicism a mother/son religion? Can there be a Catholic “faith” apart from Mary?

There could be had God chosen to enter the world by another means, but He didn’t.

 

[Dokimas]

Do I think this person a wolf? Of course not. Do I think what this person is saying is a lie perpetuated by anti-catholic doctrine for the purpose of causing readers to either avoid the Church or leave the Church, obviously. Sugar-coat it if you will, the fact is that the OP’s argument with Church doctrine, is in fact wolfish and meant to cause harm. If the OP were here to “understand” and learn what Catholics believe he/she wouldn’t have begun this thread by asking a question he/she knew was ridiculous. I stand by my comment.

This person, right now, has been given the correct answer by a number of people using various tones and insists on repeating the only answer he/she knows to repeat, “Mary is not the Mother of God.” Loving care will not remove the scales; only God, through the Holy Spirit will soften his/her heart. Your and my job is to simply plant the seeds (tell the Truth of the matter), and then to leave it to God to make the seed take root.

Here’s my original response to the OP.

[SIGN]

The term ‘mother’ has more than one use. For example:

The woman who’s ovum is fertilized.

The woman who carries the baby.

The woman who cares for the baby after it is born.

The woman that is responsible for giving life to the baby (ovum, carrying); no previous existence.

Mary carried Jesus and brought Him up. His case was unique in that He has two natures: God and Human. Mary was the mother of the Human side: she carried Him and nurtured Him. I don’t know if God used her ovum.

Mary did NOT give Jesus life. His live is eternal. Mary is not, therefore, the mother of God. God can’t be created so He has no mother.

The question remains for all of us: is God our adoptive Father? Woe to any of us to whom the answer is no. [/SIGN]

 

[Tietjen]

Mary was the mother of the Human side: she carried Him and nurtured Him. I don’t know if God used her ovum.

As has already been stated numerous times in this thread and many times in this form and countless times to Protestants throughout the world, YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO NATURES (Diety & Human) of Jesus. He is NOT two separate persons.

Mary did NOT give Jesus life. His live is eternal. Mary is not, therefore, the mother of God. God can’t be created so He has no mother.

John 19:6 says, "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

Who are you to throw away scripture? Oh, wait… maybe you believe it was only the human person of Jesus hanging there on the cross. That would mean that human blood saves us, right?! Really?? Again, this is the argument of a wolf who attempts to prey on the sheep.

 

[Dokimas]

As has already been stated numerous times in this thread and many times in this form and countless times to Protestants throughout the world, YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO NATURES (Diety & Human) of Jesus. He is NOT two separate persons.

John 19:6 says, "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

Who are you to throw away scripture? Oh, wait… maybe you believe it was only the human person of Jesus hanging there on the cross. That would mean that human blood saves us, right?! Really?? Again, this is the argument of a wolf who attempts to prey on the sheep.

Thank you for those kind words. BTW, wolves in sheeps clothes devour some and scare other sheep away.

 

[moondweller]

As has already been stated numerous times in this thread and many times in this form and countless times to Protestants throughout the world, YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE TWO NATURES (Diety & Human) of Jesus. He is NOT two separate persons.

John 19:6 says, "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”

Who are you to throw away scripture? Oh, wait… maybe you believe it was only the human person of Jesus hanging there on the cross. That would mean that human blood saves us, right?! Really?? Again, this is the argument of a wolf who attempts to prey on the sheep.

But what it does not say is, “when GOD saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, GOD said to His mother…”

Human blood does save us. God the Son took on true humanity for this very reason. In fact He Himself, according to the Scriptures is another “Adam.” The progenitor of another posterity of men made righteous “in Him.” In Rom. 5:12-21 Paul describes the two men, their two acts, and the two results based on their acts. What’s contrasted there are two states based on these two men (Adams): (1) Condemned men, slaves of death, by the first Adam; (2) justified men, reigning in LIFE, by Christ the “last Adam,” the “second man” (1 Cor. 15:45-47).

Yes, my friend, human blood does save. But not common, human blood. The precious blood of the Theanthopic Man. By one man came death, condemnation and judgment (“in him”). By Another, abundance of GRACE, the gift of righteousness and eternal life (“in Him”).Rom 5:21*"…so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord*."

 

[LilyM]

But what it does not say is, “when GOD saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, GOD said to His mother…”

So Jesus the Man IS separate and distinct in your view from Jesus the Son of God, second person of the Trinity. The name ‘Jesus’, in some instances, refers to some totally and utterly distinct and separable being from the Third Person of the Trinity, according to you.

If that’s the case, then, I’m sorry to say, you’re utterly wrong. The death of Jesus the Man, the blood of Jesus the Man (who in your view was totally distinct and separable from the Third Person of the Trinity while on the cross), didn’t save us at all, any more than the blood of the thieves who were crucified alongside Him.

Human blood does save us. God the Son took on true humanity for this very reason.

Yes, my friend, human blood does save. But not common, human blood. The precious blood of the Theanthopic Man.

But if it was only the ‘Man’ Jesus was on the cross, if only the ‘Man’ Jesus addressed His mother, then in no sense is that man Theanthropic, but purely Anthropic with no theo- component at all - the theo component, by your logic, has completely and utterly detached itself from the anthropic component.

Without the theo component, the blood of the anthropic Jesus IS utterly common, utterly unprecious human blood and no other, so by your logic it WAS only common human blood that was shed on the Cross. It wouldn’t be uncommon blood unless the theo- component was present even at the point when the blood was shed on the Cross! Which is precisely what you deny happened.

 

[mtoddm]

Mary is the Mother of the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity, God the Son, Jesus.

She is not the Mother of God the Father.

Jesus is both God and Man, and one unified person, this was settled ages ago by the Church.

She is rightly called the Mother of God, because to do so affirms the divine nature of Jesus Christ. To deny that she is Mother of God is to deny Jesus’ divinity and fall into heresy.

God bless!
—todd
catholicsojourner.blogspot.com

 

[campeador]

But what it does not say is, “when GOD saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, GOD said to His mother…”

Jesus =/= God???

Well, that answers it for me. The reason you don’t think Mary is the mother of God is because you don’t think Jesus is God.

Is that your understanding?

 

[Tietjen]

But what it does not say is, “when GOD saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, GOD said to His mother…”

Jesus = God. Why are you, obviously educated and knowledgable concerning scripture, finding it so hard to believe that Jesus Christ was then, is now, and ever will be God, second Person of the Holy Trinity?

Human blood does save us. God the Son took on true humanity for this very reason.

And in so doing had a mother.

In fact He Himself, according to the Scriptures is another “Adam.” The progenitor of another posterity of men made righteous “in Him.” In Rom. 5:12-21 Paul describes the two men, their two acts, and the two results based on their acts. What’s contrasted there are two states based on these two men (Adams): (1) Condemned men, slaves of death, by the first Adam; (2) justified men, reigning in LIFE, by Christ the “last Adam,” the “second man” (1 Cor. 15:45-47).

Agreed.

Yes, my friend, human blood does save. But not common, human blood. The precious blood of the Theanthopic Man. By one man came death, condemnation and judgment (“in him”). By Another, abundance of GRACE, the gift of righteousness and eternal life (“in Him”).
Rom 5:21*"…so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord*."

Agreed again… IF by TheanthRopic you mean 2 natures of the Christ (Deity & Human) which make up the ONE Messiah. Where we seem to part ways is when you, Dokimas, and the OP want to insist that there were 2 Christs; one being human and thus having a mother and one being God and thus having no mother. There was only one Christ who had 2 natures (Deity & human). He was fully God and fully man. He cannot be divided into 2 persons. He was born of a woman (Mary) and died on the cross in order that salvation may be possible. Mary knew him as her son AND as her Salvation (she was set aside for this purpose but that is a whole other topic). John recognized Mary as the Mother of his Lord and God, as did the other Apostles. The council of Ephesus proclaimed this in 431. The Bible proclaimed this in several places within the Gospels. Even Martin Luther proclaimed,

“Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase, ‘the Mother of God’. No one can say anything greater of her or to her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees . . .”

Luther's Works:

…she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God… it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.

Some how, over the last few hundred years (perhaps with all the various denominations coming and going into exsistance) we now find ourselves here; debating dogma which has been true for thousands of years. This is a prime example of what happens when men, take the helm and insist that God becomes a passenger.

 

[Tietjen]

Thank you for those kind words. BTW, wolves in sheeps clothes devour some and scare other sheep away.

Many Protestants would disagree. Once saved always saved (OSAS) teaching declares that nothing can pluck the “saved” man from the hand of God. Either a person is a sheep or a goat. If the goat is scared away, he was never a sheep to begin with. God bless.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

yeah, it seems pretty basic to me.

Scripture has said:

Jesus = God

Mary = Jesus’ mother

therefore mary = mother of God

it’s a simple logical principle

If a=b and b=c then a=c

They teach this kind of logic as early as 3rd grade.

 

[campeador]

yeah, it seems pretty basic to me.

Yes, indeed:

11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.” Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.

1 Kings 19:11-12